"Please don't group numbers, we can't do that" - heard from the tower

RussR

RussR

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Flying this morning, the pilot (I was CFIing) called the tower - "Tower, Cessna one twenty-three Alpha Bravo mid-field downwind... etc..."

The response from the tower was "Cessna one two three alpha bravo, runway XX, cleared to land, please don't group your numbers, we're not allowed to do that."

After landing, we clarified with the controller that he was objecting to the use of "twenty-three" instead of "two three".

Huh?

I've never heard a controller correct the way a pilot says the N-number. The controller may say it a different way, such as if the pilot says a non-standard thing like "triple 9 alpha foxtrot", the controller probably won't say the "triple 9" part, but man you hear pilots use all kinds of variations to try to be clever, and I've never heard of ATC squawking about it, unless I suppose it was actually difficult to tell what the pilot was saying. "Twenty-three" doesn't seem to cross that line to me.

We were the only airplane the tower was talking to at the time.

Controllers - is this a new thing you're supposed to watch out for?
 
I actually have used something along the lines of "triple nine alpha foxtrot" and most time they repeat it just like that. haven't done that in a while though. there was a plane for sale a long time ago, it was 99AB (I don't recall the AB part but whatever) and I was thinking I'd announce as "gretzky alpha bravo" if that was my tail #
 
Interesting, I don't think I've ever heard numbers in ATC communication stated like actual numbers.. Next time I go flying I'll say "Cirrus eight thousand one hundred forty eight foxtrot"

snark aside, I do believe the standard phraseology is to give them as actual digits.. they say "climb and maintain one two thousand" not "twelve thousand" .. they say "cleared to land two three left" not "twenty three L"
 
eman1200 said:
triple nine
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I've heard "double O" as well when reading back altimeters "three zero point double O" .. but I've never heard numbers read as numbers.
 
Saying twenty three is stupid, so I'm glad he called him out on it!! Joking of course, but it does drive me crazy. I heard someone landing on runway seventeen the other day... uggg.

I have a friend who was always calling out he was landing on "tree five". I finally told him if he was going to say "tree" he needed to say "fife" as well. Now he calls "tree fife" and it's even more annoying!

I've become the grumpy old man I admired growing up!

I grew up flying "one triple niner eight" and we always made the calls that way, so that's okay! :)
 
Typically a controller will state single digits especially for headings and altitudes or anything they want or need to be clear on, however you can group airline callsign numbers. Example: American one twenty-three is fine.

Whole set of rules on how to pronounce numbers...
Chapter 2-4-17 and 2-4-20 of the 7110.65

That said... most people don't care if you group your own callsigns.
 
I'm pretty sure the Miracle on the Hudson airplane was called "Cactus Fifteen Forty-Nine" in all the recordings. Not "one fife four niner". Of course, that was 11 years ago.

Similar with most other airline flights. Seems the grouping of numbers is routine and expected there.
 
RussR said:
Similar with most other airline flights. Seems the grouping of numbers is routine and expected there.
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yup, different spanks for different ranks. Like Carlin remarked, it's a big effin' club.....
 
RussR said:
I'm pretty sure the Miracle on the Hudson airplane was called "Cactus Fifteen Forty-Nine" in all the recordings. Not "one fife four niner". Of course, that was 11 years ago.

Similar with most other airline flights. Seems the grouping of numbers is routine and expected there.
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That's because the AIM tells them to say it that way, with few exceptions. However that does not apply to tail numbers.
 
Number grouping is specifically mentioned in AIM 4-2-2 a. 5. for air carriers with FAA authorized call signs. There is no provision for grouping for other call signs. AIM 4-2-2 is the section that covers call signs.

5. Air carriers and commuter air carriers having FAA authorized call signs should identify themselves by stating the complete call sign (using group form for the numbers) and the word “super” or “heavy” if appropriate.
EXAMPLE-

1. United Twenty-Five Heavy.
2. Midwest Commuter Seven Eleven.​
 
Tantalum said:
I've heard "double O" as well when reading back altimeters "three zero point double O"
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I only do that if the barometric pressure is 30.07. :D

Lowflynjack said:
I have a friend who was always calling out he was landing on "tree five". I finally told him if he was going to say "tree" he needed to say "fife" as well. Now he calls "tree fife" and it's even more annoying!
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What I find curious is that the faa tower at my home field almost always says "three, five, and nine" as opposed to "tree, fife, and niner", whereas the contract tower 40 miles away ALWAYS uses the NATO pronunciation. It almost sounds like they're making a point of it.
 
I always thought it odd the Richard Collins would say forty-r-cee instead of Four Zero Romeo Charlie. That phrasing seems particularly difficult for controllers to parse.
 
I still think this guy crashed because the tower told him he was cleared for runway "One Tree". Poor guy.
3ba5a659-81d8-4896-a54c-0be6c3caa88b_1140x641.png
 
Jim K said:
What I find curious is that the faa tower at my home field almost always says "three, five, and nine" as opposed to "tree, fife, and niner", whereas the contract tower 40 miles away ALWAYS uses the NATO pronunciation. It almost sounds like they're making a point of it.
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Those contracts get reviewed and they may have encountered a pencil-pusher who wrote them up for 'noncompliance' during one of those reviews.
 
I've always wondered about the way numbers are spoken, why does 3 have to be tree, what can 3 be mistaken for, or having to say niner, what else could be mistaken for 9?, just wondering
 
Gary Austin said:
I've always wondered about the way numbers are spoken, why does 3 have to be tree, what can 3 be mistaken for, or having to say niner, what else could be mistaken for 9?, just wondering
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They can be soft and not clear, the consonants added give a harder, louder, longer sound more likely to be understood.
 
Also, on grouping air carrier call signs... That is a US procedure. ICAO does not support grouping so when we leave the US we're back to saying each individual digit separately (if we are to be compliant with the applicable standard). i.e. Crossing the Gulf of Mexico southbound, "[Airliner] ten, sixty-five" becomes "[Airliner] one, zero, six, five" when switched from Houston Center to Merida Center (Centrar Mérida?). Of course, the Mexican controller is likely to reply with "[Airliner] one, zero, sixty-five". Not sure if that's a codified deviation from ICAO in Mexico, as our grouping in in the US, or if that's just how most of them do it.

Gary Austin said:
I've always wondered about the way numbers are spoken, why does 3 have to be tree, what can 3 be mistaken for, or having to say niner, what else could be mistaken for 9?, just wondering
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"Two" and "Three" are frequently mistaken as are "Five" and "Nine". "Tree", "Fife", and "Niner" make an error less likely.

Not all aeronautical communication is conducted with nearby stations on clear VHF channels. When near the range limits of VHF, or on HF, the incoming signal is not as clear and misunderstandings are more likely.
 
Larry in TN said:
"Two" and "Three" are frequently mistaken as are "Five" and "Nine". "Tree", "Fife", and "Niner" make an error less likely.

Not all aeronautical communication is conducted with nearby stations on clear VHF channels. When near the range limits of VHF, or on HF, the incoming signal is not as clear and misunderstandings are more likely.
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Yulp! That's why I'm "Tree Wun Niner Whiskey FauxTrot ...
 
I always assumed that "tree" and "fife" were intended to be more easily pronounced by pilots whose native language does not have a "th" or "v" sound.
 
I agree with the controller, but only if it was actually 123AB or similar.

'twen tee tree' vs 'two tree' is a waste of a syllable. I like abbreviations if they're fewer or equal syllables (I'll say 'Hel lo Se at tle' instead of 'Se at tle cen ter' for instance)

I agree with whoever blamed the supervisor's presence. Sounds like pointless strictness, the type which warms a bureaucrat heart.
 
eman1200 said:
I actually have used something along the lines of "triple nine alpha foxtrot" and most time they repeat it just like that. haven't done that in a while though. there was a plane for sale a long time ago, it was 99AB (I don't recall the AB part but whatever) and I was thinking I'd announce as "gretzky alpha bravo" if that was my tail #
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I am 33372. Sometimes I do triple three seven two. Most of the time I get three, three, three, seven, two back. They must have all got the same memo. Really makes me want to change my number.

Although, when going to Triple Tree Aerodrome, I enjoy getting to say Triple Tree Seven Two.
 
The story I read on 'niner' specifically was that it was to prevent confusion with the German "nein".
 
Lowflynjack said:
I still think this guy crashed because the tower told him he was cleared for runway "One Tree". Poor guy.
3ba5a659-81d8-4896-a54c-0be6c3caa88b_1140x641.png
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Is pic from western Massachusetts. I just heard a Wings talk about a guy who lost his engine and landed in a tree like that. Good talk.
 
I used the fact that we were landing on RWY Tree-One to distract a student in the pattern the other day...

OH MY GOD!! THERE IS A TREE ON THE RUNWAY!!!

:D
 
RussR said:
Flying this morning, the pilot (I was CFIing) called the tower - "Tower, Cessna one twenty-three Alpha Bravo mid-field downwind... etc..."

The response from the tower was "Cessna one two three alpha bravo, runway XX, cleared to land, please don't group your numbers, we're not allowed to do that."

After landing, we clarified with the controller that he was objecting to the use of "twenty-three" instead of "two three".
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The opposite happened to me the other day. The controller called me eight-ninety several times instead of eight niner zero.
 
Justin M said:
The opposite happened to me the other day. The controller called me eight-ninety several times instead of eight niner zero.
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Next time tell him "please don't group numbers, we can't do that"
 
Tantalum said:
Next time tell him "please don't group numbers, we can't do that"
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The only way that might make sense is if he was talking to the same controller who made that same comment to him. Otherwise, it runs the risk of spreading the practice of nit-picking people's radio transmissions.
 
Palmpilot said:
The only way that might make sense is if he was talking to the same controller who made that same comment to him. Otherwise, it runs the risk of spreading the practice of nit-picking people's radio transmissions.
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Picky, Picky. J/K
 
I once heard a controller say to a pilot on the air, "I even grouped them (the numbers) for ya (chuckle)" and then he repeated them, slowly. This was after reading something with numbers to a pilot which the pilot then flubbed upon readback.

[That was several years ago but I recall that clearly because then I did a very informal look at what we remember better and yes, grouped (paired is best) figures are easier than individual figures.

Why this controller is being....well....overcontrolling is beyond me!
 
The controller is required to use single digits in that example. There isn’t anything requiring the controller to force the pilot to use proper phraseology.
 
I group numbers for frequencies all the time, but not my tail number unless ATC gets it wrong.


Tom
 
My all time favorite is the people who switch back and forth while reading a multi-digit number.

What is the number?

Eight Forty Two Sixty Seven Six Eighty Eight

Is that 84267688 or 84026076808 (or some other combination thereof) ?
 
Microsoft's flight simulator is horrible with this. Apparently even with the yet-to-be-released version, the AI ATC instructs you to "Climb and maintain Ten Thousand", for example. :mad:
 
In the event of an investigation, the recording of the tower communications will reveal any discrepancies in phraseology that might have even the slightest effect or confusion on the connection to an event...

You do know you are recorded, don't you?

My tail number never fails to cause problems with ATC and I've never had them get it right on the first try.
 
I learned what "grouping" meant in this context. If I had been told not to "group" a number I would have had no idea what they meant.
 
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