"Please don't group numbers, we can't do that" - heard from the tower

smv said:
Microsoft's flight simulator is horrible with this. Apparently even with the yet-to-be-released version, the AI ATC instructs you to "Climb and maintain Ten Thousand", for example. :mad:
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Controller could group it for clarity but only a restate. “Cessna one two three alpha bravo, climb and maintain one zero thousand, ten thousand.”
 
Hang 4 said:
I learned what "grouping" meant in this context. If I had been told not to "group" a number I would have had no idea what they meant.
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We weren't sure either, that's why we asked about it once we got on the ground.
 
US ATC are actually taught to group numbers on flight numbers. For example, it isn't United One Two Tree Four, it is United Twelve Thirty-Four. Aircraft callsigns are usually different - It would be SkyChicken One Two Tree Alpha Bravo. However, I do hear things like "triple nine" and "seven hundred" when you get repeat numbers that are tongue twisting.
 
smv said:
My all time favorite is the people who switch back and forth while reading a multi-digit number.

What is the number?

Eight Forty Two Sixty Seven Six Eighty Eight

Is that 84267688 or 84026076808 (or some other combination thereof) ?
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Kinda like saying Cherokee Two Thirty Five... or Cessna One Eighty Two... guilty as charged. :)
 
Pilawt said:
Mine isn't a callsign, it's a sobriety test for controllers. :confused:
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I had one of those. 1323C. Don’t know what it is about two’s and three’s but when they are together in call signs it gets confused a lot. If I had dollar for every time I did it as a controller and another for every time I heard another controller do it, I’d be a rich man. When I bought it I groaned and said to myself, this is going to be an adventure. It was. I started calling myself one three two three charlie, that’s thirteen twenty three charlie on initial call ups
 
luvflyin said:
I had one of those. 1323C. Don’t know what it is about two’s and three’s but when they are together in call signs it gets confused a lot. If I had dollar for every time I did it as a controller and another for every time I heard another controller do it, I’d be a rich man. When I bought it I groaned and said to myself, this is going to be an adventure. It was. I started calling myself one three two three charlie, that’s thirteen twenty three charlie on initial call ups
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You can always group (for those of us with dyslexia ):
1 3 <short pause>2 3<short pause> Charlie.
 
luvflyin said:
I had one of those. 1323C. Don’t know what it is about two’s and three’s but when they are together in call signs it gets confused a lot. If I had dollar for every time I did it as a controller and another for every time I heard another controller do it, I’d be a rich man. When I bought it I groaned and said to myself, this is going to be an adventure. It was. I started calling myself one three two three charlie, that’s thirteen twenty three charlie on initial call ups
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I was part owner of 734NU for a while. The phonetics for the last two characters were easy to stumble over, so I eventually developed the technique of saying those two characters very deliberately each time.
 
I say callsigns using grouped numbers at work all the time and have never heard anyone complain about that.

"Indy Center, Air East thirty-one, level three four zero."
 
121 and some 135 use an FAA authorized call sign. Unless a 4 digit with zeros are involved or clarity purposes, they are spoken in group form. For the rest of us who don’t have an FAA authorized callsign, single digit is the correct format.

D9C4C2F6-59FB-4A1F-A7DC-C13968FC9079.jpeg

Yesterday I used 3 different IDs. N number, priority, and FAA authorized (local) all during a single flight. :confused:
 
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Velocity173 said:
121 and some 135 use an FAA authorized call sign. Unless a 4 digit with zeros are involved or clarity purposes, they are spoken in group form. For the rest of us who don’t have an FAA authorized callsign, single digit is the correct format.

View attachment 87702

Yesterday I used 3 different IDs. N number, priority, and FAA authorized (local) all during a single flight. :confused:
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CAP has an FAA-authorized call sign. Currently it's "Cap," but for a long time it was "Capflight" (designator CPF) because "Cap" was reserved for the defunct Capital Airlines.
 
Palmpilot said:
CAP has an FAA-authorized call sign. Currently it's "Cap," but for a long time it was "Capflight" (designator CPF) because "Cap" was reserved for the defunct Capital Airlines.
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Yeah. Several organizations use authorized call signs. I was just referring to the “Air East thirty one.”. As stated earlier, air carrier is a 3LD authorization and for the most part, spoken in group form.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah. Several organizations use authorized call signs. I was just referring to the “Air East thirty one.”. As stated earlier, air carrier is a 3LD authorization and for the most part, spoken in group form.
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CAP has us say it in group form on aviation frequencies, but not on CAP frequencies. :rolleyes1:
 
I have heard ATC frequently group numbers whenever the pilot is changing frequencies and the initial read back was incorrect, ATC almost always say it differently the second time by grouping the numbers together. For example change to 134.05 if the read back was incorrect by the pilot, they will say one hundred thirty four, zero five. (In a loud voice). Also with a heading change that was read back incorrectly, instead of repeating the same thing I.e. turn to a heading of Three two zero to the pilot, he will say turn to a heading of three hundred twenty, now! to avoid on coming traffic. (luckily it is not always me). I would here this at least once every 2 hours or so.
 
ahypnoz said:
I have heard ATC frequently group numbers whenever the pilot is changing frequencies and the initial read back was incorrect, ATC almost always say it differently the second time by grouping the numbers together. For example change to 134.05 if the read back was incorrect by the pilot, they will say one hundred thirty four, zero five. (In a loud voice). Also with a heading change that was read back incorrectly, instead of repeating the same thing I.e. turn to a heading of Three two zero to the pilot, he will say turn to a heading of three hundred twenty, now! to avoid on coming traffic. (luckily it is not always me). I would here this at least once every 2 hours or so.
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Yup. It’s in their rule book

2−4−18. NUMBER CLARIFICATION
a. If deemed necessary for clarity, and after stating numbers as specified in Paragraph 2−4−17, Numbers Usage, controllers may restate numbers using either group or single-digit form.
EXAMPLE−
“One Seven Thousand, Seventeen Thousand.”
“Altimeter Two Niner Niner Two, Twenty Nine Ninety Two.”
“One Two Six Point Five Five, One Twenty Six Point Fifty Five.”
 
luvflyin said:
Yup. It’s in their rule book

2−4−18. NUMBER CLARIFICATION
a. If deemed necessary for clarity, and after stating numbers as specified in Paragraph 2−4−17, Numbers Usage, controllers may restate numbers using either group or single-digit form.
EXAMPLE−
“One Seven Thousand, Seventeen Thousand.”
“Altimeter Two Niner Niner Two, Twenty Nine Ninety Two.”
“One Two Six Point Five Five, One Twenty Six Point Fifty Five.”
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Interesting. At least around here I usually hear "One Zero, Ten, Thousand." The "Thousand" is generally not repeated. That's not correct phraseology?

I will tend to group digits on a readback unless the controller is cranky about it. I find that if I have to do the small mental work of converting the number and not just parroting back the sounds I heard, I'm more likely to retain it or copy it correctly. So, if I get:

"Contact Approach on One Two Zero Point One."

I'll generally respond with:

"Twenty Ten, Four Sierra Pop"

(Yes, I have a habit of dropping the second 'a' on Papa. That has no reason save laziness. I should stop doing that.)
 
arnoha said:
Interesting. At least around here I usually hear "One Zero, Ten, Thousand." The "Thousand" is generally not repeated. That's not correct phraseology?
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It is not. "one-zero thousand, ten thousand" is correct.

The most often confused altitudes are 10,000 and 11,000. Those are probably the best altitudes to restate if you are going to use that technique. Restate other altitudes when there are any ambiguities, block transmission, poor radio quality, differing accents, etc.
 
haha Ft Worth center was grouping numbers for people yesterday; thought of this thread
 
arnoha said:
I'll generally respond with:

"Twenty Ten, Four Sierra Pop"

(Yes, I have a habit of dropping the second 'a' on Papa. That has no reason save laziness. I should stop doing that.)
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Of course, some people say Puh-Paw and others say Pah-Pah.
 
arnoha said:
Interesting. At least around here I usually hear "One Zero, Ten, Thousand." The "Thousand" is generally not repeated. That's not correct phraseology?

I will tend to group digits on a readback unless the controller is cranky about it. I find that if I have to do the small mental work of converting the number and not just parroting back the sounds I heard, I'm more likely to retain it or copy it correctly. So, if I get:

"Contact Approach on One Two Zero Point One."

I'll generally respond with:

"Twenty Ten, Four Sierra Pop"

(Yes, I have a habit of dropping the second 'a' on Papa. That has no reason save laziness. I should stop doing that.)
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To be ‘correct’ it is ‘one zero thousand, ten thousand.’ But ‘one zero, ten thousand is so common and never seems to cause a misunderstanding it ain’t no thing.

Same thing with readbacks. Some readbacks. Altitude assignments and other ‘clearance’ items ya shouldnt be messing around with. Any frequencies ending in .25, .50 or .75, I say ‘and a quarter, half, three quarters.’ No particular reason, it’s just fun. Try Sugar Pop next time:)
 
N1120A said:
Are you sure? Or is it Pop-Uh?
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Pretty certain it is Pop-a... Pop-Uh has more inflection on the second syl-AH-ble and "Uh" takes longer to say than "a". :p
 
smv said:
Pretty certain it is Pop-a... Pop-Uh has more inflection on the second syl-AH-ble and "Uh" takes longer to say than "a". :p
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It's not pop-UH, it's POP-uh.

Proving, once again, that pilots will argue about absolutely ANYTHING. :D
 
Palmpilot said:
It's not pop-UH, it's POP-uh.

Proving, once again, that pilots will argue about absolutely ANYTHING. :D
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Unsurprisingly, my California accent matches that: POP-uh. Which is why shortening it to just POP is natural for me. If someone else's natural accent split the syllable where it seems to make more sense and sound more like pahpah, I'm guessing it would be less natural to hear pop as a good abbreviation for Papa. I'll try to remember that when I fly east and remember to say the whole thing.
 
I say 'two hundred Romeo Charlie' rather than two zero zero Romeo Charlie' all the time. Never had a controller complain and in fact most of them say it too. If I try to say 'zero Romeo Charlie' it comes out 'ZeeRomeo Charlie"
 
Lowflynjack said:
I have a friend who was always calling out he was landing on "tree five". I finally told him if he was going to say "tree" he needed to say "fife" as well. Now he calls "tree fife" and it's even more annoying!
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Now THAT'S funny...
 
I always make a point to say "KAY-Beck," and half of the people who hear me don't know what I'm saying...
 
My first radio contact with ATC, after buying into my first airplane, was to request flight following. It went as follows:
Me: ATL approach, Cherokee five zero zero kilo charlie with VFR request.
ATL: Five hundred kilo charlie go ahead.

From that point on to the sale of the airplane years later it was allways five hundred kilo charlie. No matter who I was talking to, or how I initiated the call, the reply was always five hundred kilo charlie.
 
Does anyone know why Chicago center is not using grouped numbers for airline callsigns? I'm used to doing it that way outside the US, but it's slightly annoying to have it be inconsistent from center to center within the US.
 
If you want shorter call signs you can use numbers and alphabet that have 1 syllable:
Two instead of seven.
Golf instead of Juliet.
 
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