Please Delete this Thread

[presidentialair]

The subject Job placement with Lion Air of Indonesia has been terminated 5 years ago and we request the moderator to delete this add.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Sounds like a PFT scam.

 

[Everskyward]

Remember that the Rules of Conduct don't allow commenting on the value of what is offered. People can read the ad and decide for themselves.

 

[catmandu]

Well then, no comment. Okay, one comment:

LINES

Read here

LINES

 

[Jim Logajan]

Moderators please feel free to move this post to another section, but then again, I did at least post it in the classifieds

If the moderators are not able or do not want to accept the offer made by the OP to move this out of the classifieds, can we take the offer to mean that the OP is willing to accept posts on the value of the goods offered?

Question is directed to both OP and moderators.

 

[Everskyward]

The classifieds looks like the obvious place for this post even though it's a want-ad and not something for sale, and the rule is...

When a member lists an item for sale, please do not comment on the value of the goods offered, unless specifically requested by the original poster.

Does the original poster want comments? Unless they state that they do, please refrain from making any.

 

[Jim Logajan]

The classifieds looks like the obvious place for this post even though it's a want-ad and not something for sale, and the rule is...



Does the original poster want comments? Unless they state that they do, please refrain from making any.

The poster has indicated that Hangar Talk, among others, would be acceptable. Ergo so would the rules for that group.

 

[bqmassey]

There's a difference between commenting on the value of an item for sale, and commenting on the legitimacy.

If something's is being intentionally misrepresented or is a known scam, I'd like to know it. If I see something that is being intentionally misrepresented or is a known scam, you bet I'll comment.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Employment Contract: Two (2) year(s)
Salary: 30,000 – 35,000 USD after local Taxes (Per Year)

Fees Structure:
Fee: $39,900 (Line Training Contract) + $4,900 (Base Training Fee)
Travel and Accommodation Cost (Asia/Canada): Paid by the Candidate

Hiring Ratio upon passing Presidential Air’s Interview (Phone/Skype/Face to Face): 50%

Waitaminute. Fees? $44,800 in fees? For a $30-$35K/year job? Or is that paid to the pilot? I don't get it.

 

[Henning]

As a clarification on the fee structure, are you withholding that against a two year contract, $45k off $60-$70k, or are you charging that up front?

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Only 200tt??

Calling BS on ya buddy

 

[bqmassey]

Ignoring the fee section, all you need to know is here:

Two (2) year employment contract for Boeing 737-NG Type rated pilots

and

Qualification Requirements:
...
Minimum of 200 hours total time
...
*No actual flying time on type is required.

 

[flyingmoose]

No thanks

 

[Fearless Tower]

Remember that the Rules of Conduct don't allow commenting on the value of what is offered. People can read the ad and decide for themselves.

But not everyone here at POA has seen these kinds of ads.

Serious question to you or the mods: Are we not allowed to warn our fellow pilots of bad deals that are out there?

This is a very common indentured servant deal that plays on the heart strings of some young kid with wet ink on their commercial ticket.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[TMetzinger]

Rather than commenting on the "value", perhaps explaining how this works would give the desired effect by giving people the facts to make up their own minds.

As I read this, if Isign up with this company, I'm on the hook for about $44,000 in fees, and my expected income over two years is 60,000-70,000. And I'm responsible for my own travel, to Canada and China.

I cannot tell if I already have to have the B737 type rating or if getting that is part of the line training contract I'm paying for.

Am I understanding this correctly? Never mind if it's a "good" or "bad" deal, I can make that decision myself. Do I have the terms and conditions of the contract correct?

 

[Everskyward]

Serious question to you or the mods: Are we not allowed to warn our fellow pilots of bad deals that are out there?

Can you not read the ad and decide for yourself. They're not trying to hide anything.

 

[wabower]

The ratio of training costs to anticipated earnings to the pilot formula appears to be roughly equivalent to most other pilot jobs.

Can you not read the ad and decide for yourself. They're not trying to hide anything.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Can you not read the ad and decide for yourself. They're not trying to hide anything.

The issue isn't about deciding for myself, it is about pointing it out for others who may not have seen the countless ads like this because they haven't frequented some of the professional aviation boards.

As far as not trying to hide anything...I suspect you will find a lot more in the fine print.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Everskyward]

The issue isn't about deciding for myself, it is about pointing it out for others who may not have seen the countless ads like this because they haven't frequented some of the professional aviation boards.

Do you think there are people out there who have gotten to the point of having B-737 type ratings who are that naive?

 

[Henning]

Rather than commenting on the "value", perhaps explaining how this works would give the desired effect by giving people the facts to make up their own minds.

As I read this, if Isign up with this company, I'm on the hook for about $44,000 in fees, and my expected income over two years is 60,000-70,000. And I'm responsible for my own travel, to Canada and China.

I cannot tell if I already have to have the B737 type rating or if getting that is part of the line training contract I'm paying for.

Am I understanding this correctly? Never mind if it's a "good" or "bad" deal, I can make that decision myself. Do I have the terms and conditions of the contract correct?

Plus room and board. I believe the type rating is what you are buying with the fees, but I'm not positive, nor am I particularly positive on any part of this. I would use an escrow service of my choosing.

 

[wabower]

I can point to quite a few with types in even bigger aircraft who demonstrate such on a daily basis. Many wear uniforms, some are even union members.

Do you think there are people out there who have gotten to the point of having B-737 type ratings who are that naive?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Do you think there are people out there who have gotten to the point of having B-737 type ratings who are that naive?

Hopefully not. I doubt there is anyone out there with a 737 type and only 200 hrs TT.

The issue is that the way this ad reads (as someone else pointed out) it is vague as to whether or not the type rating is really a pre-req or part of the training you pay for. That is why I smell scam....they get a few folks who think it is one of the pay for time gigs where you pay to sit in the right seat of a 737 in Asia or Africa and build time. The fact that the company is not even US based makes it further suspect. All they need is a few gullible or excessively hopeful folks to apply and they can get enough personal/bank account info to screw them.

"Your airline ticket to Shanghai is in the mail" .....yeah right.

IF I am really out of line by pointing this out, I would like a MOD to PM me.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Can you not read the ad and decide for yourself. They're not trying to hide anything.

That may be true, Mari. But with all due respect, the ad raises more questions than it answers, IMO. Or maybe I am just dense. :wink2:

 

[Everskyward]

That may be true, Mari. But with all due respect, the ad raises more questions than it answers, IMO. Or maybe I am just dense. :wink2:

Actually I think the ad is pretty transparent. At least the important parts.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Actually I think the ad is pretty transparent. At least the important parts.

Ok, maybe so.

Here is what I get out of it.

The company is looking for pilots with a Commercial Pilot License with a minimum of 200 hours.

Really? IOW they will accept someone with a fresh Commercial Cert. just out of a 141 school.

And they are looking for 737 type rated pilots. Really? Freshly minted commercial pilots with 200 hours and a 737 type? Can you see where that isn't quite so transparent? Or maybe they are providing the type rating? That isn't clear in this ad.

And like Kent said, you would be spending $44,800 to make between $7,600 and $12,600 a year for two years. At least that is what the plain reading of the ad indicates.

With all due respect, it isn't that transparent and it isn't really all that clear in the ad just WHAT they are looking for.

I agree in principle with the RoC's for the classifieds. But I also think asking questions of the OP is fair game. I notice he hasn't been back to check on this thread as far as I can tell.

 

[TMetzinger]

Well, let's say you have to pay for the type rating for 12K, and you are now CP-ASMEL-IA with B737 type and the limitation on PIC privileges since you got your first Jet type in a sim with no airplane time - I think that says you need 25 hours of supervised operating experience and then you can get the limitation removed.

So you paid 12K for the type, and you now fork over 44K for the training these guys provide. At the end of two years you've netted 14K (70K salary minus 56K for the type rating and the training), and you have hopefully 1000+ hours of B737 SIC time.

You're probably in the hole because you had to eat, and travel.

BUT, all that said, you now have some significant experience. Not sure what other employers will think of it.

This may not be that awful an apprenticeship. I mean, there are other professions where green junior folk essentially get paid squat while learning on the job... (what DO interns and residents make these days after forking out $$$$$$ for med school?)

 

[Henning]

If you can really walk into a deal like that at 200-250hrs it wouldn't be bad to walk away 2 years later with 2200hrs, 2000 in a 737, and a type rating.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Perhaps I should have rephrased my initial comment. Compared to some other PFT schemes I have seen, this sounds more like a 'phishing' scam.

I don't think there is a job good or bad on the other end of the email inbox where you send copies of all your documents.

 

[HAL-A330]

Hello everyone, we are currently looking for potential pilots for our company located in Canada and would love to hear from any of you guys

-Company: Presidential Air
-Contact: resumes@presidentialair.ca
-Address:
Lake Simcoe Regional Airport
224 Line 7 North
Hangar 1
Oro Station, Ontario, Canada
L0L 2E0

Two (2) year employment contract for Boeing 737-NG Type rated pilots

Employment Contract: Two (2) year(s)
Salary: 30,000 – 35,000 USD after local Taxes (Per Year)

Fees Structure:
Fee: $39,900 (Line Training Contract) + $4,900 (Base Training Fee)
Travel and Accommodation Cost (Asia/Canada): Paid by the Candidate

Qualification Requirements:
ICAO Pilots (FAA, Transport Canada, JAA, CAA, etc.)
CPL Multi Instrument
Minimum of 200 hours total time
ICAO English proficiency level 4 and above
Age Limit imposed by the Asian based Airline (Male/Female): 23-43 years old
*No actual flying time on type is required.

Interview Location (Venue): “TBA”
Hiring Ratio upon passing Presidential Air’s Interview (Phone/Skype/Face to Face): 50%

Required Documents:
Resume, CV
Copy of all pages of Passport, ( minimum of 21 months validity is required)
Copy of all pages of Pilot Licence
Copy of Class 1 medical Certificate
Licence verification letter
Copy of English proficiency certificate (Level 4 and higher)
Last 3 pages of certified log book
Proof of Funds (Bank Statement or a Financial Institution’s Loan Approval letter)

Additional Notes:
-All emails must be sent to Resumes@PresidentialAir.ca only.
-Emails received at Info@presidentialAir.ca or Bookings@PresidentialAir.ca are for flight bookings and Aircraft management/leasing purpose only; resumes received on these account might not be added to the database.
-Must be able to travel to Asia with less than two(2) weeks notice.
-The subject of email must indicate “NG TYPE RATED PILOT”
-For more information please visit www.presidentialair.ca


Moderators please feel free to move this post to another section, but then again, I did at least post it in the classifieds

So you're basically selling a 737NG type and 2 years at wages well below some regional airlines for about $50K?

Really? I hope nobody responds to this...

 

[Jaybird180]

have you ever typed a witty reply, hovered over the send button in agony...and then overwrote it to say something like:

have you ever typed a witty reply, hovered over the send button in agony...and then overwrote it to say something like:

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Only 200tt??

Calling BS on ya buddy

All it tells me is that someone wants to find the cheapest labor possible, and they know that there are aspiring pilots who will do anything to get that jet time.

 

[denverpilot]

All it tells me is that someone wants to find the cheapest labor possible, and they know that there are aspiring pilots who will do anything to get that jet time.

Yup. The entire airline industry.

 

[Fearless Tower]

All it tells me is that someone wants to find the cheapest labor possible, and they know that there are aspiring pilots who will do anything to get that jet time.

Check this out:

Required Documents:
Resume, CV
Copy of all pages of Passport, ( minimum of 21 months validity is required)
Copy of all pages of Pilot Licence
Copy of Class 1 medical Certificate
Licence verification letter
Copy of English proficiency certificate (Level 4 and higher)
Last 3 pages of certified log book
Proof of Funds (Bank Statement or a Financial Institution’s Loan Approval letter)

They want you to email that to them up front.....before you even get to talk to anyone or get an interview.

This isn't looking for cheap labor.....

Guy could have a pretty good time in Vegas with all that info.....

 

[Jaybird180]

You can always blot out information on a bank statement.

 

[Fearless Tower]

You can always blot out information on a bank statement.

You can do a lot of things..... But that request combined with the other ambiguous requirements makes it suspicious.

 

[weilke]

The company is real. In addition to charter, they manage aircraft for others.

Assuming that this is real, I dont see how this is worse than slaving away for 2 years flying a ERJ-135 for minimal salary. After expenses, it's a 2 year unpaid apprenticeship that leaves you with enough 737 time to hire on with someone else afterwards.

Probably enough furloughed AA 737 pilots floating around who can step right into that job.

 

[Jaybird180]

The company is real. In addition to charter, they manage aircraft for others.

Assuming that this is real, I dont see how this is worse than slaving away for 2 years flying a ERJ-135 for minimal salary. After expenses, it's a 2 year unpaid apprenticeship that leaves you with enough 737 time to hire on with someone else afterwards.

Probably enough furloughed AA 737 pilots floating around who can step right into that job.

How do you know?

Please don't say you looked at the website to qualify your statement.

 

[Jim Logajan]

The company is real.

In about a week from this posting they should have enough responses to their hiring ads to remove this note from their web site:

 

[Henning]

The company is real. In addition to charter, they manage aircraft for others.

Assuming that this is real, I dont see how this is worse than slaving away for 2 years flying a ERJ-135 for minimal salary. After expenses, it's a 2 year unpaid apprenticeship that leaves you with enough 737 time to hire on with someone else afterwards.

Probably enough furloughed AA 737 pilots floating around who can step right into that job.

Exactly, as long as they take the fee as a garnishment or due at early seperation I'd be okay with it. If they are going to charge cash for the rating up front, that 's going over the line.

 

[NoHeat]

The company is real.

Trying to be real, maybe?

I looked for more info, and it seems to me that this company is a charter service with a single Piper Navajo Chieftain, but a website that tries to look like more.

Not many websites, other than the company's own website, mention the company. One mention is this one, which lists their charter fleet as consisting of the Navajo. Another mention is the Lake Simcoe airport website that lists them as a charter service based there.

The company's web page seems to be intended to attract charter customers, although it strangely does not tell you what kind of aircraft they fly. There are only a few photos, which do not look like at all like a 737. Is it the Navajo?

Since the company's own website seems to be one of the few places online that mentions the company, I looked behind the site to see what there is. And it's not much.

A whois search shows that their website domain was registered in 2009 and its contact, both administrative and technical, is identified as the CEO, Mani Saba. The company's phone number in the domain registry is one with a prefix that is typical for a cell phone in Toronto. These are not the typical signatures of a company with more than a few employees.

The website has a toll-free phone number, which is a favorable indication suggesting that they are real. So I tried it. The site says you can call 24/7 to arrange for express cargo to get your package on its way to arrive at its destination within a few hours. I phoned on a Friday evening, but my call was answered by an answering machine. Leave a message, it said. That package will have to wait, I guess.

The company created a youtube channel, which like the web page does have much. It has been viewed 52 times.

A search for info on Mr/Ms Saba turns up pretty much nothing.

Overall, my impression is that if the company is real, it has made a much smaller impression on the world than what you would expect for a company that trains 737 pilots and flies 737 charters.