Plane value vs. Personal Net Worth?

MuseChaser

MuseChaser

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I know that's not an entirely polite question to ask, nor is it anyone's business, but my curiosity has been piqued by a few of the "what plane should I buy" and "can I afford...." threads. Folks finding out from lenders just how much the lender is willing to loan. Lots of, at least to me, fairly big budget planes being bandied about and under consideration.

I'll go first, in a circumspect manner, and will certainly understand if folks reply in similarly vague fashion... or not at all. I know it' none of my business, and giving clues to one's net worth in a public internet forum probably isn't a wise thing to do.

I own a '65 PA28-140. Have brought its value, through renovation and upgrades, to maybe low $30Ks. I could afford to buy a plane that cost a few times that amount without financing, and maintain, insure, and fly it, without severely impacting my retirement savings (currently 60 years old and retired from "day gig," but still active and earning the odd sheckel when nice gigs show up) or our current household budget/lifestyle. However, at that point, the plane would be a significant amount of our net worth. Right now, it really isn't, so there's zero financial stress with aircraft ownership. I realize that for many people even a $30K airplane is still a dream; it was for me for decades, and I am very grateful for the blessings I've had in life. For those who individually own airplanes worth six figures, especially those whose first digit is 2 or higher, is it typical for that plane to have a similarly small impact on your (and your family's) budget and net worth, or is the plane a high enough priority that major sacrifices and/or risks are part of ownership? I guess that's the real question.

I'd love to buy a really nicely equipped Tiger, and can probably afford to....just not sure I can psychologically justify that percentage of financial emphasis on aviation, much as I love it.

I hope I haven't offended anyone....please accept my apologies if I have. Just been chewing on this a while, and was hoping some of you would be willing to comment. PMs are fine.
 
Chirp chirp
 
I don’t own a plane but chose not to. I’m afraid I wouldn't take care of it properly. I’m terrible at maintaining my vehicles. Routine maintenance is not even in my vocabulary and I’m afraid it would carry over to plane ownership. OP i know not what you want to hear. Right now if something is broken on the rental plane I just hand over the keys to the maintenance staff and say you deal with it.
 
No - the Tiger is long gone. Chirp chirp as in crickets, I doubt you’ll get much response here, although it would be interesting.
 
I think it depends on what you consider a risk. My personal level on toys is if I cannot pay cash for it, I can’t afford it. The amount of my net worth does not even come into the equation. I would like to buy a t-6, but I’m not really sure the fun value exceeds the outlay. Now I’m looking at a new boat that cost twice the price of the t-6, but am not even doubting the enjoyment would outlay the cost. I have bought property that was a good percentage of my net worth, but that is more of an investment than a expense. I would say bottom line, when it comes to toys if the expense worries you, don’t buy it no matter the cost or percentage of your net worth. But I think as a generalization people that own more expensive aircraft have a larger percent of disposable income.
 
Mine will be a deduction. The more I spend, the more I save... or so I’ve convinced myself. Still working on my CPA’s
 
Debt free, child free helps. I'm quasi-retired at 43, and get contract gigs to pay for my toys. A month of work pays for a year of flying or upgrades.

The plane is somewhere between 5-7% of NW depending on the day.

That MU-2F for sale is making me want to work more. :D I really really really miss reverse thrust from the PT6s.
 
I could afford an airplane worth ten times more than the one I own. But when one's airplane is worth about $8,000, that's not a real stretch. :)

On the serious side, I *like* what I'm flying now, and don't really see how another ~$72,000 would increase my enjoyment that much. I'd love to have a Cessna Bird Dog (which I haven't flown for about 45 years), could probably afford one, but I like open-cockpit flying.

Ron Wanttaja
 
As someone that's not retired, I'd be looking at my disposable income to decide what I can afford, and even then it's a personal decision.
 
kayoh190 said:
As someone that's not retired, I'd be looking at my disposable income to decide what I can afford, and even then it's a personal decision.
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This.

Owning and operating a plane is less about total net worth and everything about income.

That’s because the purchase price of almost any airplane is minuscule compared to the annual cost of ownership (insurance/maintenance/fuel/hangar...etc).

Lots of jets out there that I could afford to buy that I’d never be able to keep.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This.

Owning and operating a plane is less about total net worth and everything about income.

That’s because the purchase price of almost any airplane is minuscule compared to the annual cost of ownership (insurance/maintenance/fuel/hangar...etc).

Lots of jets out there that I could afford to buy that I’d never be able to keep.
Click to expand...

Something like this is the way I look at it, too (well, except the jet part!) The initial purchase cost is not so relevant (assuming a cash purchase) the day after the bill of sale goes through. It's the care and feeding continuing expense that shuts down the idea for me. The purchase price, is basically fully refundable when the plane needs to be sold (assuming well-insured, and of course plus-or-minus a few amu's), but while owning, can one afford maintenance, fuel, etc. in order too use it. I've run this around for awhile, thinking I could cash in some non-IRA savings to buy, say, a $120K Bonanza, or such (that category of aircraft is what would suit my use profile), a substantial percentage of my net worth, but could be sold (eventually) for practically the same amount later. But, I don't have an "extra" $15-$20K per year to be able to fly it for any reasonable amount of hours (100/yr or so).
 
My Bonanza is probably a larger piece of my net worth than it should be. On the other hand, I get a lot more use and enjoyment out of it than I do with an index fund. My wife and I have never spent a lot of time together enjoying our stock portfolio. We have never taken our IRAs on an adventure, even if they have take us on a few lately. On the other hand, owning the bonanza isn't putting any real financial stress on us either.
 
Net worth is only useful in major acquisitions like an airplane if you’re willing to sell some of it off to buy it and maintain it. If you‘re retired and you’re doing it right, a substantial portion of your net worth is generating income. The more you sell off, the more you’re income decreases. Personally, I view buying an airplane as an investment. It will certainly be an investment with a negative ROI, but that’s OK. I’m willing to pay to indulge my hobbies as long as I can afford to do so without detracting from other aspects of my lifestyle. At some point, I'll sell the airplane and recoup some of my money...hopefully enough that I can look at the net loss and conclude that the joy that it bought me made it a worthwhile use of my money.
 
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There was one of those How-Much-Plane-Can-I-Afford threads floating around where someone said the total cost of your toys should amount to 10% or less of your net worth. For some reason that resonated with me. So your plane, boat, horses, bikes, atvs and RV shouldn't total more than 10%... unscientific, but it seemed to make sense to me as a limit. I'm too lazy to look up the actual thread.
 
10% was thrown around in this thread, but I'm more conservative than that. I agree that it's more about income than net worth and that it's more about TCO than purchase price.
 
I have always used 10% of net worth as a max for combined value of all toys (I like cars so for me that’s plane + cars). I don’t think NW is the perfect metric for all phases of life and economic levels but it works better than income past a certain point and assuming relatively modern airplanes bought for travel. Doesn’t really work for older planes as the Opex to value ratio gets all crazy. You'd have to use a value closer to when the plane was new as the plane depreciates but its opex does not.

Edit: ha, I see the two guys above me beat me to it!
 
unsafervguy said:
I think it depends on what you consider a risk. My personal level on toys is if I cannot pay cash for it, I can’t afford it. The amount of my net worth does not even come into the equation. I would like to buy a t-6, but I’m not really sure the fun value exceeds the outlay. Now I’m looking at a new boat that cost twice the price of the t-6, but am not even doubting the enjoyment would outlay the cost. I have bought property that was a good percentage of my net worth, but that is more of an investment than a expense. I would say bottom line, when it comes to toys if the expense worries you, don’t buy it no matter the cost or percentage of your net worth. But I think as a generalization people that own more expensive aircraft have a larger percent of disposable income.
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^^^ This. I’m having more fun now with my little LSA than when I had my 172 and 182 combined. Costs don’t even seem to matter as the fuel burn is basically non-existent money wise and the care and upkeep have not been unreasonable at all compared to keeping a 40 plus year old relic in the air.

For example, when I wanted to get back into a motorcycle, I could have gone down to a dealer and bought a shiny new bike at full retail. Instead, I found a great used 14 year old bike that was meticulously maintained that passes for a 1 year old bike. Total outlay was well under $5k. That bike personally brings me more joy knowing I spent so little for such an awesome machine.

i use this method for almost all toy purchases. I can find a lot of great sport or luxury cars for well under $20k that were once $80-100k. If they need a little maintenance here and there to drive another 10 years/100k I’m still way ahead in my eyes. If I sell for $10k 5 years later my total investment was far less than the guy next door who suffered massive depreciation the day he drove off the lot in a new car.

I guess living well below your means, whatever that is for you, is financial peace. As our income has grown over the decades so has our worth, but I never felt like I was missing out in the process.
 
My plane is about 80% of my net worth. I bought it in cash at 23.

I decided that life is short, and there's plenty of time to buy a house, I'm not going to have the opportunity to buy a forever plane again. I'm now 25 and have no regrets about my decision, quite contrary it's quite pleasant. Obviously I'm an outlier with messed up (correct?) priorities.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
My plane is about 80% of my net worth. I bought it at 23.

I decided that life is short, and there's plenty of time to buy a house, I'm not going to have the opportunity to buy a forever plane again. I'm now 25 and have no regrets about my decision, quite contrary it's quite pleasant. Obviously I'm an outlier with messed up (correct?) priorities.
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Which also makes perfect sense even though it runs contrary to the 10% thinking. Which means this is completely a personal decision based on your priorities and situation in life. No wrong answers.
 
I bought my plane for convenience since renting was difficult when I wanted to get one on the weekends. We had just sold a house that was rezoned commercial and had a windfall. I also had a steady funding stream from the VA for the plane. At the time, I was working but have since retired. At $45k the plane never had much of an impact on net worth. We are moving to a place where the plane will be less accessible and I can now fly during the week when renting is easier so it is for sale.
 
Wow. What a great bunch of thoughtful replies. All make great points. Very helpful and interesting. The reason I focused on net worth rather than income and plane value rather than operating expenses is that the operating expenses of the other planes that interest me are in the same ball park as my Cherokee although I'm sure insurance would be more costly. For me the major change in upgrading would be the cash outlay and tying up a significant portion of my investment's future earning potential.

Thanks, everyone. Wonderful thoughts, and mich appreciated.
 
Right now, I'm in a club with little less than half the price of hourly rentals in my area. It's what was right for my means. I work two jobs, one that pays the bills and the other for the toys. I'm a boxing/fitness trainer on the side and until the recent birth of my 1st child fought professionally. So my blood and sweat literally pays for the fun. For now. I hope to become a CFI because I like teaching things I'm passionate about and my body won't handle training others long term.
Quick mental math, my flying and motorcycle habit was about 12% of my income last year, pretty close to that informal 10% rule.
 
Dana said:
As long as my plane cost less than my wife's car I'm good...
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Sounds like it’s nearly time to upgrade her car? I hear Aston Martins are nice.
 
I've always looked at things as an investment. Whether it be real estate, car, or plane. I think that's been instilled in me from my father. Using him as an example, he bought his original Cherokee 160 for 18k. It was rough looking. At 18k if the poop hits the fan it's not gonna hurt losing a few thousand. Whereas buying a 6 figure plane right off the bat might turn into 80k. That could sting a little. When he sold the 160 in the 40's he was money ahead of total investment. Buying an 80k plane outright might be tough. But when you already have 40 from the previous asset it makes it more palatable. It's all about finding the right deal at the right time and if things are meant to be it just falls into place. In real estate I've had some dealings where it was like pulling teeth and things didn't work out. But then I've had deals just fall into my lap and I'm better off.

Your level of comfort in a financial transaction of this magnitude at this point in life is probably far different than me or anyone else hear. It's not as simple as net worth divided by x equals still being comfortable financially. I think most of it comes down to how much more joy would that Tiger get you and what's that joy worth. And if you absolutely had to sell, would the return on investment leave you underwater.

I've always looked at net worth as just dying with more stuff and the correlation to financial freedom just didn't amount to much. But I'm in my early 30s. I'm sure my views will change with age and experience
 
Fearless Tower said:
That’s because the purchase price of almost any airplane is minuscule compared to the annual cost of ownership (insurance/maintenance/fuel/hangar...
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Especially when you consider that when you sell it you will get most if not all of it back. Assuming you took care of it.
 
Interesting. I never thought of plane ownership this way. I am late 50's and always wanted to finish my PPL started in the 70's, but I knew renting was not for me. I like to take great care of my things and know they are going to work when I want them to. I resumed lessons and then bought a 182, found a supposedly non existent hanger and finished my PPL. I have found the ownership experience just like owning a boat. You fix things before they break and have to be prepared to write a check for up to the cost of a new engine. If this caused me stress I wouldn't do it.
So doing the math my airplane is < 3% of NW so I guess that helps. I understand Mtns2skies also. I was 25 once. Now my kids are.
 
I look at avg annual cost to run it (normal mx, hangar, insurance, fuel, etc...) vs annual income.
I hover around 10% I guess on this.
I say I guess, because one my income varies based on how business is. Two I haven't had a house payment or car payment since before I turned 30. Three, I have no small drains on income (kids) and no major drain on income (wife) so I honestly don't budget that much. I eat, I sleep, I fly, I invest, I bowl. I don't really watch finances. I have a ball park in my head what I spend, and I quasi monitor what the bank account looks like at the end of each month.

Then I also look at catastrophic (engine OH) vs liquid assets. No cashing anything in to cover it.
I make sure I have my normal (non-aviation) emergency fund and enough to cover the engine OH.

Acquisition is always going to be a cash deal.
 
I dont think net-worth is not a helpful metric without looking at the stage of life someone is in. The equation is very different whether you are young and single or whether you are in your 50s with kids in college and retirement is on the horizon. For a young kid, 100% of their net worth in a trainer plane may be perfectly ok, for someone who needs to build some income producing investments for retirement, putting 50% of their net worth into a plane may be an unwise thing to do.

I could 'afford' a lot more plane* than I have. In terms of net-worth, my share in a partnership is a small number and the same holds true for my partners. Making decisions like avionics upgrades or paint is really easy if the check everyone has to write is a small one. Maybe I'll dive into sole ownership one of these days, but for now owning 1/3 of a plane is 'enough' for my flying needs.







* house, car etc.
 
I kind of look at it both strategically and tactically.

Strategic: Ensure what you spend on your plane, both initial purchase and ongoing costs, doesn't inhibit investments in the future etc such that your NW works for you to grow your NW.

Tactical: Ensure that what you spend on ongoing costs is well within the monthly budget, including leaving headroom in that monthly budget for "life." AKA, the washer died, the car needs tires, unexpected medical expense, etc.

Like @weilke above, I'm in a partnership with three others, so it's a whole lot more palatable to be writing a check for 1/4 the hangar, 1/4 the annual, 1/4 the insurance, etc., and I still get the plane as much as I like. Works for me.
 
When I was 26, I bought a half share in a C-150 for $6,000. I had a negative net worth at the time.

Now I'm 35 and looking to buy another C-150 for about $20,000, and my net worth is a million. But I'm struggling to feel like it's justified.

I guess I need to find a happy medium. I think that the total annual cost for a typical 4 seater is about $10k, so if you have this much disposable income that you are okay with not using for other things (including saving and paying off debt), you should go for it. I need to loosen up the purse strings a little, but admittedly it's hard when you get older and have different priorities (kids really change things). I'm glad I spent the money when I was younger even though I didn't have it - but within reason. There's only so much you can lose on a $6K investment.
 
I'm in pretty much the same position as Ron @wanttaja. I've toyed with the idea of buying a T-34A Mentor since I flew these when I was in the Vandenberg AFB Aero Club and we had two of them fresh out of AF inventory on the line, but I love my little Zodiac and can wrench on it and inspect it myself which I really enjoy doing. I don't think having a T-34 would add much enjoyment over the thrill I get every time I fly my Zodiac.
 
i can afford much more plane honestly, i choose not to due to some life lessons i have learned not too long ago. i do end up spending insane (to me) amount of money on this
 
My plane is something I enjoy more than leaving money for the kids and grandkids (up to a point). I fly for fun and relaxation and really don't need a plane but having one is certainly enjoyable. Like EdFred, the income I have covers what I want to enjoy and I don't really track expenditures. At the end of the month, since I have some left over, I put it in a separate fun account for whatever strikes me as something I might like to own or do like taking seaplane flying lessons even if I never fly one again.

If I didn't spend the money on the plane monthly, I'd spend it on something else, likely travel. OTOH, I have been just everywhere I have wanted to go so the plane is at the top of the list for the use of fun money. I'm sure that will change as the plane and I age but since the income exceeds the outgo and with a high degree of certainty will for the future, I don't worry about it.

Cheers
 
Like many others, I don't think there is just one answer. For some people the plane is their one toy/hobby/frivolous expense. For others it's one of many. RudyP had it right in one should look at the cost of all the toys.

Then, what do you do with the plane? And how often? If it's boring holes in the sky then I'd say keep it low cost. If you don't do it much, then even lower on the costs and maybe a rental. But, if it's your way to go on more trips, or visit friends/children/grandchildren, then it's worth more for your lifestyle.

I bought a share of a SR22 last year. I could buy the whole thing, but I'd rather not to keep the expenses down, especially the surprise expenses. :eek: Maybe when I retire I'll buy one solo as we'll have more time to travel. We travel this way, plus I do Angel Flight missions. With COVID pretty much cancelling all international travel and upping the risk on commercial flights we may travel more often the rest of this year in the Cirrus. Now that we've downsized and I don't have a garden or woodworking shop I have more time for flying. So for me it's worth a bigger portion of our net worth; it's a small percentage of our net worth.

Sorry there's not "one answer". Stay with planes that you could resale and you'll be in good shape. The big financial risk is the catastrophic engine failure. :( For most of our planes that would be the big hit and insurance doesn't cover that. :(

You could always shift to having a partner in the future to reduce the costs.
 
I look at this a bit differently. I'm not getting any younger, so why not pursue aviation interests as long as you can do so without significantly impacting personal or family financial security or the ability to pursue other desired non-aviation activities? For many light singles, the purchase price is not the major financial barrier, it's the maintenance and upgrades. If you can afford the care and maintenance, go for it. The plane itself is a recoverable, if non-liquid, asset. I started plane ownership early, in my early 30s, and haven't looked back. It was more affordable than I ever thought, and certainly more practical than I was told by almost everyone. Personally, I wouldn't go into debt for an airplane, but that's me and my situation. I don't fret or regret for a minute expenditures on safety or comfort, be it autopilots, GPS, ADS-B, glass panels, etc. It's not a financial investment for me--it's an avocation. If you count the money every time you do something to your plane you will go crazy. Flying is not the least bit justifiable from a financial perspective. Do it because you love it. And do it in something comfortable for your mission.
 
It's one thing to buy an airplane. It's another thing to maintain it. I've considered it a few times in my life; once when I was doing mapping, but it would have been a work airplane; the other when I thought about buying a Super D. I could have afforded both, but then I thought about the cost plus time and effort spent, and I declined. Besides, I thought of aviation more as a work activity, and my interest in aerobatics wasn't strong enough to sustain it more than about a year, then life intervened and I had to spend my spare time on other things.

Now I'm completely out of aviation and more into sailing. People ask me the same thing. When are you going to buy a boat? Buying a boat around here would also involve renting a slip, which is as much as a hangar. Even though there is less regulation, boats still require maintenance. Then I hear about people who spend a lot more time working on their boat than sailing. No, I'll do the same thing as I did with airplanes; sail on other people's boats and help them with their maintenance occasionally.
 
schmookeeg said:
Debt free, child free helps. I'm quasi-retired at 43, and get contract gigs to pay for my toys. A month of work pays for a year of flying or upgrades.

The plane is somewhere between 5-7% of NW depending on the day.

That MU-2F for sale is making me want to work more. :D I really really really miss reverse thrust from the PT6s.
Click to expand...

Just curious, what does MU-2F and PT6 got to do with each other?
 
Everskyward said:
It's one thing to buy an airplane. It's another thing to maintain it. I've considered it a few times in my life; once when I was doing mapping, but it would have been a work airplane; the other when I thought about buying a Super D. I could have afforded both, but then I thought about the cost plus time and effort spent, and I declined. Besides, I thought of aviation more as a work activity, and my interest in aerobatics wasn't strong enough to sustain it more than about a year, then life intervened and I had to spend my spare time on other things.

Now I'm completely out of aviation and more into sailing. People ask me the same thing. When are you going to buy a boat? Buying a boat around here would also involve renting a slip, which is as much as a hangar. Even though there is less regulation, boats still require maintenance. Then I hear about people who spend a lot more time working on their boat than sailing. No, I'll do the same thing as I did with airplanes; sail on other people's boats and help them with their maintenance occasionally.
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Sailboats and planes are both huge time sucks. Since late March/early April when Covid hit and I've had plenty of time, I tore out and rebuilt the entire transom of our 26' Pearson and rewired a good bit of it, built a new battery box and relocated the battery, AND have done the entire interior of our Cherokee, installed a 4 place intercom, fabricated new fuel lines, installed a PowerFlo exhaust, new wheel bearings all around, new brake pads, new brake lines, fuel tank work, and everything else normal that goes along with an extensive annual. Been working pretty much 40 hour weeks on both..boat is finally in the water and doing great, and we're wrapping up the plane this week (I hope). I'd way rather sail and fly than wrench on either, by a long shot, but I've gotta say it's been very rewarding. No regrets to owning either, at all. The boat is much, MUCH less expensive, including slip, haul out, lumch, and winter storage.
 
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