Plane purchase 1st time

[Stormswift]

Hi. I am looking for information and advice regarding plane purchase. I understand the process in general ( title search per AOPA etc) after we find plane we are interested in. What do we do 1st? Contact seller? Make written offer? Do title search? Set up escrow, do pre-buy? I want to know what the sequence should be. The pre-buy may be a challenge. He is maintaining the plane at Lexington KY Blue Grass and that is the name of mechanic that pops up for pre-buys in that are. I doubt we can get our local Maryland mechanic to travel to KY so it makes sense to find someone local. Thoroughbread cannot do the inspection because they did annual and maintenance. I would prefer someone else without conflict of interest.My understanding that one we make offer we need to do inspection as soon as possible, so I need to identify someone who can do it pretty quickly. Financial will not be an issue. We are looking at little Cessna 150

 

[Gary Ward]

I am not expert as I have only bought one plane, but did all of it on my own.
First thing I would do is obtain the FAA file on the plane for 10 bucks online. It allows you to do the title search, discover the all the past owners, liens etc. Very interesting to look at for 10 bucks.
If you like what you see then ask for the logs to be electronically sent to you and your mechanic.
Not in a bad way but you really can't afford to spend too much on a pre buy since it is a 150 IMO.

As always it is best to use the mechanic who will service it for the pre buy. I think that is really important. Maybe you travel to the plane and send detailed pictures back to your mechanic at home and do the prebuy that way?

Here's the FAA link...for 10 bucks you can get the same info that others will charge well over 100 bucks to get for you.
https://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/nd/
I get one for my plane every few years to make sure my mechanic filing the 337s for my plane.

Good luck to ya.

 

[Magman]

Suggest you begin by contacting the person that will do future Annuals.

Then have the Seller send AD Status and log entries that person suggests.

I always start with the AD Status, Engine O/H and entries for last 3 Annuals.

This also provides insight into whether the aircraft was active. Your Tech

may suggest more. Traveling to look at papers is insane.


This is an example where techie stuff may help.

Your Tech could monitor the Tech on-site doing certain tasks

ie Compression Check. You would be paying 2 people to do this but might

be better than travel.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

It depends on how detailed you want to get.
I have known people to buy sight unseen, with no due diligence (prebuy or title search) and a handshake and it working out fine. However there are plenty of stories of this not working out at all!
Some people want a microscopic dissection of the airplane and its logs and if the seller agrees that can work (however some sellers will tell you to pound sand, they have other buyers waiting who are not that particular).

Most people are somewhere in the middle; eyeball the airplane yourself, agree on a price conditional upon the prebuy - preferably with a contract, do the prebuy to your specifications including documents and data tags airframe/eng/prop all correct; do an NTSB search, registration search, let AerospaceReports.com do a title search & escrow.
Then take it home - to your healthy bank account which will be needed for things missed, or needing upgrades!

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Meh, how can we complicate this?....I'd find out who was doing the annuals (from the current log books) ...the last couple of years and call them. They will have no allegiance to the current owner. Ask them if they remember the plane?....what is their impression of the plane?...what kind of work/maintenance do they remember performing?....anything significant?...Is it a clean plane?....what do they think of the owner?....does it need anything?

I've done this on my last plane and purchased it sight unseen from across the country and it worked out fine for me. But, past performance is no guarantee of future results.

 

[morleyz]

What I did based on feedback I got from other owners and the internet:
- Look over the logs books yourself for any red flags. If you have an A&P in your contacts, have them look over the logs books. This can save you some $$ in going to see the plane.
- See the plane yourself. Give it a good once over and also give the seller a good once over. If the seller is dodgy, I call that a red flag. If the plane is flying regularly and you're comfortable, get it up in the air. If the seller is dodgy, red flag.
- Get a pre-buy. Your instinct to get someone other than the currently maintainer is right. You'll want this info in case their are any defects you want the owner to fix as a condition of sale or if you want to negotiation a price concession for repairs.
- Negotiate a purchase agreement and sign. I found a template online and just changed some language.
- Set up an escrow service. If you're financing, use whoever your broker/bank suggests. Aerospace Reports was super easy to work with and affordable if you're on your own.
- Escrow will walk you through the closing process and do all the paperwork.

Done.

 

[frfly172]

If your mechanic isn’t available to do the pre buy find a shop in the local area who hasn’t worked on the airplane. After agreeing on a price,use AOPA affiliate company’s for total search and escrow. I would have my mechanic review the log books.

 

[Bell206]

I doubt we can get our local Maryland mechanic to travel to KY so it makes sense to find someone local.

Just keep in mind, its your local mechanic's subjective opinion on the airworthiness side that matters. He's the one that will let you know on its 1st annual once under his review. Even on a little 150. Its always been my recommendation you discuss any potential aircraft purchase with the mechanic who will maintain it for you before you buy it. At a minimum he should be able to give you a list of things that are important to him to check should he be unavailable to participate in any pre-buy. A good rapport now can save you problems in the future. Good luck.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Hi. I am looking for information and advice regarding plane purchase. I understand the process in general ( title search per AOPA etc) after we find plane we are interested in. What do we do 1st? Contact seller? Make written offer? Do title search? Set up escrow, do pre-buy? I want to know what the sequence should be. The pre-buy may be a challenge. He is maintaining the plane at Lexington KY Blue Grass and that is the name of mechanic that pops up for pre-buys in that are. I doubt we can get our local Maryland mechanic to travel to KY so it makes sense to find someone local. Thoroughbread cannot do the inspection because they did annual and maintenance. I would prefer someone else without conflict of interest.My understanding that one we make offer we need to do inspection as soon as possible, so I need to identify someone who can do it pretty quickly. Financial will not be an issue. We are looking at little Cessna 150

Lots of ways to do it but here's my checklist:
1a) Figure out your mission, budget and what you're seeking. Doesn't hurt to post on PoA and get others opinions based on your mission - lots of people do it.
1b) Call up an insurance broker/company and see if you qualify for insurance and can afford it. You may find that insurance fires a SAM site missile directly into your dream plane. For instance, I was quoted 12k$ per YEAR on a plane that I thought would be less than half that.
1c) If you're using financing -- get a prequalification so you know what your budget is [A LOT of deals seem to fall apart b/c buyer can't put financing together -- a totally preventable problem]

2) Get a local A&P who you intend to work on your plane going forward. It can be hard to pick one if you have no basis for choosing one over the other. Ask around your local airport for recommendations. If people have gotten burned they may delight in telling you who NOT to use.
3) Find an airplane online: TAP, Controller, Barnstormers are the top ones I think
4) Call the seller. Ask your normal questions (e.g., damage history/pricing/etc) but also ask for a copy of the logs, at least the most recent ones. Past 3-5y of annuals or so / organized AD compliance sheets if they have them. They should be able to provide a digital copy.
5) Look through the logs and if your cursory glance is good - provide them to your A&P for their opinion. Keep in mind you'll be paying for their time to review the logs even if you don't move forward.
6) If you're interested after getting the A&P's opinion -- set up a time to look at the airplane in person. Or if its far away you might skip this step.
7) Make a written offer SUBJECT TO PREBUY INSPECTION based on the agreed price. Also specify terms that allow you to back out. In your prebuy you spell out what you are and are not allowed to do during inspection.
8) Pay your deposit if required per your agreement. I recommend using an escrow service like Aerospace Reports to protect both your interests. Personally, I would not be willing to PayPal/write a check to a rando. Too many dishonest people out there.
9) See if your mechanic can go out there ($$$$) or find a local mechanic to look at the plane who can coordinate with your mechanic on what specifically to look for.
10) Negotiate based on what you find. Particularly any AD/airworthiness concerns should be negotiated. Don't try to nickel and dime on cosmetic things or items you knew about going into the prebuy.
11) Complete the deal.

While the plane is under the knife getting prebuy, some choose to just continue with the inspection and turn it into an annual. Some refer to this as a prebuy-annual.

Note: Have patience. When I first started shopping I got frustrated that I was paying for a prebuy and the mechanic shot down the first 3 planes I sent logs over for. It felt like I was paying him yet getting no closer to owning. Turns out the best ******** money I ever spent was having a professional tell me "you don't want this plane, trust me". Best ROI ever.

 

[Will Kumley]

1c) If you're using financing -- get a prequalification so you know what your budget is [A LOT of deals seem to fall apart b/c buyer can't put financing together -- a totally preventable problem]

Definitely this!
When I was searching for a plane I was blissfully unaware of how banks finance planes and assumed that because I could get a loan for a $90K vehicle at the drop of the pen I'd be able to get a similar loan for an airplane. That wasn't the case, I was turned down for airplane loans left and right with most of them being under $40K, but when I wanted to get a vehicle loan for a car the bank was throwing money over twice that at me like it wasn't a big deal. The payments would have been substantially lower on the airplane loan as it was less monetary value and spread over a much larger timeframe but all the aviation loan banks I talked to used a different debt-to-income ratio calculation which made it look like I was rubbing pennies together to make ends meet. In the end I found I plane I could purchase outright and I'm happy it worked out, but I also missed out on some nice planes that were completely in my budget.

 

[Stormswift]

Thank you all for the great feedback. So financing is squared away.
I found local Co. where plane is located that can do Pre-buy.
Next we are trying to get a hold of local mechanic at our local airport where we can do tie down rental and the one my son is flying from who will likely be the one to maintain the plane.
Plane had Annual done in March of this year. Engine is Continental, new, 400 hrs on it. So another 1400 to go before overhaul and kiddo is just under 300 hrs accumulated so far.
Next I am going to get Insurance Co. quote. My son has Private, IFR and Commercial licenses so he will be able to pick up the plane after purchase.
The reason we are doing this despite him soon finishing on CFI I and multi engine through local community college is because he is also doing part time BS in Engineering at local University (if he gets through this semester he will be a senior) and that will take time away from doing full time CFI work. He can do some instructing for his school but that means he will not rake up enough hours quick enough.He needs to make up for the hours he cannot accumulate teaching Having his own plane always available to him can offset that.
The mission is have a plane readily available to him so he can make the hours he needs to get into regionals as quickly as possible with CFI as side earning for plane maintainance fund, tie down, insurance, etc.

 

[Magman]

People have gotten HEAVIER since the 150 was new.

While it MIGHT tolerate an overload they are not legal

in that condition. Hitting a deer while overloaded could result

in a career threatening violation.

There may be better current options based on W & B.

 

[Stormswift]

I would have preferred if it had engine conversion and STOL kit and expanded tanks, but..... Kiddo would be flying this plane alone. He is actually trying to loose weight so he can train on tail dragger . That would require him and instructor to be under certain weight for plane they have available at his school

 

[Magman]

My thought is the more uses or “ missions” you can use an aircraft for the

more practical it becomes. Using it to get ratings, breakfasts and also

train students would be desirable. Factors are not only his weight but that

of the student. This would prevent some students from flying it legally.

Check a typical 150 W n B to see max student weight. It may be

enlightening .


Many aircraft are great but ALL have hard Limits. The downside of the

engine and tank conversions is most actually DECREASE Useful Load.

Why a 150?

Are you familiar with a FliteLiner and what it entailed?

 

[Stormswift]

My thought is the more uses or “ missions” you can use an aircraft for the

more practical it becomes. Using it to get ratings, breakfasts and also

train students would be desirable. Factors are not only his weight but that

of the student. This would prevent some students from flying it legally.

Check a typical 150 W n B to see max student weight. It may be

enlightening .


Many aircraft are great but ALL have hard Limits. The downside of the

engine and tank conversions is most actually DECREASE Useful Load.

Why a 150?

Are you familiar with a FliteLiner and what it entailed?

Not familiar with FliteLiner. We are looking at affordability and also "insidiously" as a parent of "mostly" mature 23 yr old I am thinking 150 would limit what he can do with the plane. He is not going to teach with it . At most he would work for a local school using their planes which are Cessnas 172's , Piper Archer, Diamond. What what I am also trying to avoid is him using a bigger plane to satisfy his wonderlust ( as in hopping on with 3 other friends) and heading for parts unknown.That would drive insurance and cost of gas up the wall and give me heart attack. His cross country flights were always planned to combine required hours with seeing something ( Wright Brothers memorial, Ohio Museum of Aviation etc.) That's why I was thinking 150-152 would be sufficient for shorter distance hops, weight limited so only him flying, cheaper on gas, cheaper annuals and maintainance and could be cheap commuter to work/ hub if he is in a specific area where flying is makes more sence then driving. Once he is working full time as a pilot he can decide if he wants bigger plane and if it even makes sense to own one at all

 

[Magman]

Makes sense as a personal aircraft.

 

[chemgeek]

I bought my 2 planes a while ago, but my procedure was:

1. Contact the seller and arrange a time to see the airplane in person. (My search was regional, withing driving or personal flying distance)
2. During the in-person visit, inspect the log books and ensure there are no red flags (prop or landing gear or wing replaced, which could be "code" for something bad), and all ADs are complied with. It helps if you know something about the reputation of the mechanics who maintained the plane.
3. If the log books look OK, test-fly the plane with the owner to ensure that everything in the plane works, and that aircraft rigging and flight characteristics are normal and the plane makes book performance.
4. If all is good so far, make a refundable deposit and arrange for the plane to be flown to your mechanic for a tentative sale contingent on a same-day pre-buy inspection. What you are looking for here are things you can't see without doing some disassembly, looking for internal corrosion, compressions, etc. that only a mechanic can do.
5. If it passes all these tests, provide a cashiers check and complete the sale, deducting any agreeable amount if there are things discovered during the pre-buy that need to be remediated.

My first plane I did the pre-buy at the seller's location. I got a plane and a spare engine for a very good price. The second time the pre-buy was done at my home airport, but I was highly confident based on the reputation of the mechanic who maintained it that it would be in good condition.

These days you can probably get a digital copy of the logbook, maybe. You need the engine logs, airframe logs, propeller logs, and all the STC documentation as well as the AD an SB compliance sheets. If you see the plane in person you can see the originals and ensure you have everything.

Good luck. Sometimes you look for one thing, and wind up getting something else. I was sure I was going to purchase a Cherokee 140 for my first plane, and wound up with an AA-1A and getting into the Grumman Gang, later getting an AA-5 for a little more useful load and IFR capability. Turns out I really like the Grummans. You never know...

 

[Stormswift]

So we heard from the owner. Looking at logs. 2 of the cylinders ( 3 and 4)are at 60 and 53 compression. Frankly I would not want my kiddo test flying with those complressions and the other 2 are at 70 & 77. My son believes the cost of replacement with work may be around 6K? I emailed folks who may be doing inspection about the actual cost ( it may be worth walking away from this altogether?).

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Low cylinders by itself is not a reason to walk away.
Cylinders are a consumable; a commonly replaced item. (just make sure they are available for that engine, and check on a price to replace them all as you note)
Low cylinders or other defects are a good bargaining point.
Look at the engine as a whole - is it just low cylinders or are there actually other problems with the engine (cut open an oil filter, get oil analysis, check the other cylinders by scope and pressure test)

 

[Magman]

Conti uses a different method of “Compression Tests” with a Master Orifice.

My guess is that 60 and 53 are acceptable. Readings tend to go up and

down during the life of the engine. Was it done cold, after a run or after

flight play a role also. Borescope? Oil ponding / fouled plugs?

Where was it leaking from?

If you are going to factor “ Compression “ in the picture it is best if you

study the Conti Service Letter on this topic.

“Let’s “ comments are to the point also.

I disagree with some of you comeents notably fuel consumption and

Mx costs.

Aircraft prices are up so there are very few “ steals”.

Those that appear to be often wind up as big headaches.


YOU may think the 150 is fine for him alone due to weight; but

many folks will ignore W& B and carry a passenger anyway.

Most 150’s tend to have minimum avionics.

If an Instrument Rating is is the cards it’s cheaper to buy equipped

rather than add.

Your “ Weight Limit” seems to rule out him getting instruction in that

aircraft for any further ratings also.

 

[Stormswift]

Conti uses a different method of “Compression Tests” with a Master Orifice.

My guess is that 60 and 53 are acceptable. Readings tend to go up and

down during the life of the engine. Was it done cold, after a run or after

flight play a role also. Borescope? Oil ponding / fouled plugs?

Where was it leaking from?

If you are going to factor “ Compression “ in the picture it is best if you

study the Conti Service Letter on this topic.

“Let’s “ comments are to the point also.

I disagree with some of you comeents notably fuel consumption and

Mx costs.

Aircraft prices are up so there are very few “ steals”.

Those that appear to be often wind up as big headaches.


YOU may think the 150 is fine for him alone due to weight; but

many folks will ignore W& B and carry a passenger anyway.

Most 150’s tend to have minimum avionics.

If an Instrument Rating is is the cards it’s cheaper to buy equipped

rather than add.

Your “ Weight Limit” seems to rule out him getting instruction in that

aircraft for any further ratings

 

[Magman]

I think your reply may have been clipped?

If I were to be dealing with a “ mostly mature” Kiddo a couple of

cards I would play:

1. Spend time with the Performance Charts. Your concern may be

Miles per gallon ( mpg) rather than Gallons per hour( gph) in some cases..

You do not have to be at 75% power all the time.

A 150 may burn as much fuel as a 172 or Cherokee in some cases.


2. I’m sure he WILL fly with passengers.

Much better paying a higher fuel bill in a 172/ Cherokee than have him

flying an overweight 150.


3. Why do you say mx costs will be substantially higher?

 

[Stormswift]

I think your reply may have been clipped?

If I were to be dealing with a “ mostly mature” Kiddo a couple of

cards I would play:

1. Spend time with the Performance Charts. Your concern may be

Miles per gallon ( mpg) rather than Gallons per hour( gph) in some cases..

You do not have to be at 75% power all the time.

A 150 may burn as much fuel as a 172 or Cherokee in some cases.


2. I’m sure he WILL fly with passengers.

Much better paying a higher fuel bill in a 172/ Cherokee than have him

flying an overweight 150.


3. Why do you say mx costs will be substantially higher?

The " mostly mature " quip has to of with his GF choices, lol. When it comes to flying he is "Iceman". By the book. He knows his life depends on the weight balance so "passangers' is the part I am not worried about . If we buy the plane I would be flying home via Delta unless as you say we do end up with a 4 seater. He is 5'11.75 about 235lbs so noone else is getting in with him. As far as insurance, something tells me a 2 seater will be less $$ than a 4 seater . I could be wrong. We may not be getting this particular plane any way. I ordered reports and there are some questions. 1.Owner financed may still owe on the plane ( shows credit union debt) so does that mean no clean title if this still shows up?
2. Despite what advertised did not see paperwork on engine replacement filed with FAA not by him or any of the previous owners ( ADSB out was added but that is all that shows). Should engine replacement be listed.Maybe I am not understanding what they are supposed to show? Annual shows 426.4 TT.

 

[chemgeek]

The " mostly mature " quip has to of with his GF choices, lol. When it comes to flying he is "Iceman". By the book. He knows his life depends on the weight balance so "passangers' is the part I am not worried about . If we buy the plane I would be flying home via Delta unless as you say we do end up with a 4 seater. He is 5'11.75 about 235lbs so noone else is getting in with him. As far as insurance, something tells me a 2 seater will be less $$ than a 4 seater . I could be wrong. We may not be getting this particular plane any way. I ordered reports and there are some questions. 1.Owner financed may still owe on the plane ( shows credit union debt) so does that mean no clean title if this still shows up?
2. Despite what advertised did not see paperwork on engine replacement filed with FAA not by him or any of the previous owners ( ADSB out was added but that is all that shows). Should engine replacement be listed.Maybe I am not understanding what they are supposed to show? Annual shows 426.4 TT.

Engine replacement should be in the logs somewhere. Might be in a new book, but it should be noted as newly installed and with what new or reused accessories.

 

[Magman]

It appears you are unfamiliar with the world of maintenance.

1. Why do you dash mx costs will be substantially higher?

2. 426.4 TT is what ? Tach Time? Total Time? Likely is time on the Tach

since it was installed. They generally read 0 at that time which doesnt

tell you much. It could be the second or the 10th one that was installed.

No standard on this.

3. The changing of old and new O-200’s need only be in the logbooks.

It is not a Major Repair or Alteration so there is no Form 337 to FAA.

4. The 400 hrs since Major o/h is no guarantee that it will go another

1400 hrs. Or it could go much further. The Recommended TBO is

not a limit and many folks operate them far over that time. Condition

is monitored at Required Inspections but unless there is an issue it

is the Owner that says when. I agree with Lycoming’s position that

high usage engines get a longer Recommended TBO. Most engines I see


rust out rather than wear out.

 

[Stormswift]

It appears you are unfamiliar with the world of maintenance.

1. Why do you dash mx costs will be substantially higher?

2. 426.4 TT is what ? Tach Time? Total Time? Likely is time on the Tach

since it was installed. They generally read 0 at that time which doesnt

tell you much. It could be the second or the 10th one that was installed.

No standard on this.

3. The changing of old and new O-200’s need only be in the logbooks.

It is not a Major Repair or Alteration so there is no Form 337 to FAA.

4. The 400 hrs since Major o/h is no guarantee that it will go another

1400 hrs. Or it could go much further. The Recommended TBO is

not a limit and many folks operate them far over that time. Condition

is monitored at Required Inspections but unless there is an issue it

is the Owner that says when. I agree with Lycoming’s position that

high usage engines get a longer Recommended TBO. Most engines I see


rust out rather than wear out.

Thank you. This is really helpful

 

[Magman]

Thank you!

My belief is that folks on this and other forums are more than willing to give advice.

IMHO - It hurts the whole Aviation Community when someone winds up with

an aircraft that does not suit them.

 

[Pinecone]

TT could be total time or tach time.

If the tach is replaced, that should be in the logs. And later annuals should show the current tach time as was as the total tach time. So multiple tachs should not affect total time.

 

[Stormswift]

So we did find a plane we like. The Pre-buy showed one low cylinder compression 45/80 ( will be repaired by seller) and elevator is also being repaired. I am not sure of the timelines. Thoughts?

 

[cmtejuliani]

If it´s a cheap and older plane such as C210´s I would reserve 10-20% of the asking price as unexpected maintenance reserve.