Plane Prices

AlleyCat67 said:
Federal employee here. You have no idea what you’re talking about if you think bribery or skimming funds is a real issue. I spend way too much time filing financial disclosure forms and battling our procurement officers in order to buy anything. And no, I’m not worth $200 million at the end off my career.
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I'm not saying you are involved, but are you really saying that no government officials are corrupt? I grew up in Illinois, we had THREE ex-governors in FEDERAL PRISON at the same time. OUR GOVERNOR SOLD THE SITTING PRESIDENT"S FORMER SENATE SEAT. Were all of those wrongful convictions? Are all the reports and arrest records fabricated?

"Not a big issue?" Why? Because the government wastes so much money that what is stolen and grafted pennies on the dollar?

I quit a job I really enjoyed a long time ago because I didn't enjoy being a bag-lady paying off the corrupt FEDERAL officials in *****. Every company did, because they controlled the port-of-entry. No pay, no play
 
Lois said:
I'm not saying you are involved, but are you really saying that no government officials are corrupt? I grew up in Illinois, we had THREE ex-governors in FEDERAL PRISON at the same time. OUR GOVERNOR SOLD THE SITTING PRESIDENT"S FORMER SENATE SEAT. Were all of those wrongful convictions? Are all the reports and arrest records fabricated?

"Not a big issue?" Why? Because the government wastes so much money that what is stolen and grafted pennies on the dollar?

I quit a job I really enjoyed a long time ago because I didn't enjoy being a bag-lady paying off the corrupt FEDERAL officials in *****. Every company did, because they controlled the port-of-entry. No pay, no play
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As someone before this said, state and Federal may be different beasts. I'm sure there are a few Federal civil servants who figure out how to steal money, but its pretty small potatoes. In my organization there was one guy 15 years ago who wrote a contract for his wife's company. He was fired, convicted of a Federal crime, and his story (with names altered) still appears as a case history for our annual ethics training.

The question of whether/how much money the government wastes is a separate issue. The government is perfectly capable of wasting gobs of money without its employees stealing a dime of it!
 
Oldmanb777 said:
How much you hang on to is just as important as how much you make. Anyway, try looking forward on a fixed income. It looks real grim with inflation, taxes, and dropping stock market. I was watching for the right plane or partnership to come available. But probably not now. It would need to be a perfect fit for me to be interested, now.
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mandm said:
Exactly, the new administration has made sure of this. Very sad and a grim outlook to be in the retired group now.
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The old administration and the new administration are both responsible for that. For example, the first $2000 of the new administration's stimulus payments were proposed by the old administration. The national debt increased by more then seven trillion dollars under the old administration. How much it will increase under the new administration remains to be seen. :(
 
Palmpilot said:
...The national debt increased by more then seven trillion dollars under the old administration...How much it will increase under the new administration remains to be seen
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The debt in 2017-19, although bad, wasn't awful in historical terms. 2020 was an anomaly b/c of shutting down the economy. The fact of the matter is, the country is in a world of hurt from decades of spending beyond our means. An increasingly larger percentage of annual expenditures fund entitlement programs which are extremely difficult to roll back. If you can't cut expenditures, your only choice is to promote revenue growth. Revenue grows when businesses are given a reason and the ability to grow (via cost reductions from tax cuts and regulatory burden relief). You imply the previous and current administrations are just adding to the debt in equal amounts. Although you're probably right, it's one thing to add to debt in the pursuit stoking the economy to raise revenue and something completely different to propose economic depressing policies of higher taxes and regulations simultaneous with the addition of brand new entitlement programs.

EDITED DATES
 
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Lois said:
I'm not saying you are involved, but are you really saying that no government officials are corrupt? I grew up in Illinois, we had THREE ex-governors in FEDERAL PRISON at the same time. OUR GOVERNOR SOLD THE SITTING PRESIDENT"S FORMER SENATE SEAT. Were all of those wrongful convictions? Are all the reports and arrest records fabricated?

"Not a big issue?" Why? Because the government wastes so much money that what is stolen and grafted pennies on the dollar?

I quit a job I really enjoyed a long time ago because I didn't enjoy being a bag-lady paying off the corrupt FEDERAL officials in *****. Every company did, because they controlled the port-of-entry. No pay, no play
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Illinois? Are you cereal? There's your problem. Illinois makes Jersey look like Boy Scouts. I wouldn't fly over Illinois.

As AlleyCat says, at the federal level, my level, which ain't the bottom, I can't even let a contractor buy me lunch. I have to avoid even "the appearance of impropriety". I can't obligate the the federal government in any way. It is written as a disclaimer on my email signature. Anything, and I mean anything, over $2500 has to go out for 3 bids. It is a huge pain. Any organizational swag has to be paid for out of my pocket, no freebies. If there are donuts at a meeting, someone bought them and brought them in. There was a moron at a sister facility who walked home with a big screen TV...he went to federal prison. Lost all pension and benefits.

Illinios...well elections have consequences.

So there...:raspberry:
 
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Morgan3820 said:
Nope, CSRS went away in 1984, 38 years ago. The few remaining under CSRS are really old and will be carried out on a stretcher. That ain't me, I hope.
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Going to a retirement party for one of them tomorrow. Know another one still working. They both will be entitled to 80% of their 'high-3' average salaries for life, and are still walking quite spritely, unaided. Many of us on CSRS smelled a rat when FERS came along and the government told us what a good deal it was.
 
Piperonca said:
Going to a retirement party for one of them tomorrow. Know another one still working. They both will be entitled to 80% of their 'high-3' average salaries for life, and are still walking quite spritely, unaided. Many of us on CSRS smelled a rat when FERS came along and the government told us what a good deal it was.
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Yeah I was too good a deal for the government to keep doing it. Downside you had to stay in for at least 30 years. If you left early you couldn’t take any thing with you. no 401(k)s or anything.
 
MICHAEL MAHN said:
...You imply the previous and current administrations are just adding to the debt in equal amounts...
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You inferred that; I did not imply it. Among other things, the inference is not consistent with my statement that the size of the current administration's contribution to the problem remains to be seen.
 
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Grum.Man said:
I don’t see how people are doing it. My grocery bill has gone up $30-40 a week, gas has almost doubled, my power bill is up, the same car I bought 3 years ago is almost 10k more now. House prices have gone up 100k from a couple years ago. Where the heck are people getting the money to afford these airplanes?? I got my usual 3% raise at work, inflation was like 6% so basically I got a pay cut! I’m certainly not going to be buying any airplanes are the current prices so guess I’ll slowly be pushed out of the hobby.
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If you own a business and you can write of the plane, the tax code and the interest rates have never been better.
 
Wagondriver said:
I have seen the compensation package for some local government people. While on paper they can complain that their income is fair, the rest of the compensation package pushes them far higher. Our local librarian gets about $165k in salary. BUT, gets a $30k housing supplement, full health insurance, and other benefits that end up with her making more money than the vast majority of private business people. With your housing subsidized, and your heath insurance covered, and in many cases being provided with a vehicle and gas card, they are often quite isolated from any negatives in the economy. Its not like the government ever decreases its workforce.
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I am calling BS.
 
mandm said:
Not really, federal government employees can not earn more than congressional members and it takes time to get to the high levels. On the other hand, some local cities, counties and states do overpay their workers and have mismanaged budgets.
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Really. Do you not consider congresscritters government employees?
 
Wagondriver said:
https://www.aspentimes.com/news/basalt-library-director-declines-new-contract/

This is the first article that came up, it is from 2012. She quits her $105k salary job in part because the $30,000 housing subsidy is reduced to $20,000 per year. Those are numbers from 10 years ago, no government job ever goes DOWN in compensation.
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The post said “our local librarian gets…” The article says Basalt Library Executive Director. She is not your local librarian.
 
Wagondriver said:
https://www.aspentimes.com/news/basalt-library-director-declines-new-contract/

This is the first article that came up, it is from 2012. She quits her $105k salary job in part because the $30,000 housing subsidy is reduced to $20,000 per year. Those are numbers from 10 years ago, no government job ever goes DOWN in compensation.
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I've heard of employees being offered government subsidies as incentives to bring services to underserved communities (eg. rural physicians), or where local housing prices are so high that they are out of reach of public employee salaries. Based on house prices published for Basalt CO, I suspect that the librarian in question was subject to the latter. I don't see that as out of line if that is what a community chooses to do.

If the community changes its collective mind and decides to reduce that subsidy, then they are free to do that (as was done in Basalt CO). Nor do I begrudge the librarian her decision to leave a job when her compensation is reduced by 8% (or for any reason of her choosing). It is her decision to make. (as an aside, based on the cited article, it seems that government compensation can and does go DOWN)

As for the librarian's severance package, if that is what she negotiated, then that is what she should have gotten (IMO). If Dennis Muilenburg can be fired from Boeing and still receive $62 million in negotiated severance (https://www.manufacturing.net/aerospace/news/21109798/boeing-ceos-golden-parachute-was-62-million), then a librarian who was (as far as the article indicates) doing a good job, deserved the $27,000 (or whatever amount) that she negotiated (again based on the article).

Which brings us back to the subject of this thread. Plane prices. They are worth whatever price is negotiated. There will be reasons for reaching that price that some will judge to be reasonable and others will judge differently. But for that buyer and that seller, the reasons will have been satisfactory.
 
Palmpilot said:
The old administration and the new administration are both responsible for that. For example, the first $2000 of the new administration's stimulus payments were proposed by the old administration. The national debt increased by more then seven trillion dollars under the old administration. How much it will increase under the new administration remains to be seen. :(
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Yeah, I'm sure the 0% intra-bank rate we've had for years now, the massive corp/upper-tax-bracket tax cut, and a poorly managed/politicized global pandemic have absolutely nothing to do with the current inflation we're starting to see.
 
LesGawlik said:
Blancolirio had a vid on a new 172. $480,000 and an 18 month wait. It was nice, all glass and set up for training pilots to transition to jets. But $48k for a ragged out 172 is not bad considering the replacement cost.
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Here’s the video:
 
LesGawlik said:
Blancolirio had a vid on a new 172. $480,000 and an 18 month wait. It was nice, all glass and set up for training pilots to transition to jets. But $48k for a ragged out 172 is not bad considering the replacement cost.
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'
Then there were the 100% rebuilt 172 from Yingling... which would cost what today?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
It was definitely in better condition. Based on utility alone, I prefer the new plane.
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Just curious about the advantages of this trade. Thought the AA-5 was supposed to be a pretty fast fixed gear, and the PA24 not generally a very fast retractable. Is the speed difference really more than about 20kts or so? How much more is the useful load?

C.
 
Clip4 said:
The post said “our local librarian gets…” The article says Basalt Library Executive Director. She is not your local librarian.
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Just a fancy way to say librarian, there is only one library, and its not very big. Did you read the article? The job title may be executive director, but she is the librarian. Either way, the point was the large amount of compensation, with the extras like housing subsidy, and an $1100 per month health insurance policy, and other extras. I pay taxes for her compensation, I think its excessive, and when the economy was in the toilet and non government employees were getting reduced hours and or pay rates, she quit because her housing subsidy went down to $20k per year. Her other benefits did not change, nor her salary.
 
Back to the original point of the thread, IF I were in the market for a new trainer plane, I'd pick up a good solid older plane and have it all redone with the latest panel, paint, engine, etc... I bet the end cost would be around $175k, and it would perform better than those late model planes.
I flew a late model 172 for some IFR training, I was thoroughly impressed by its lack of performance!! And, it was not a hot day, I'm not a big buy, nor was the instructor, and the tanks were not full.
 
Wagondriver said:
Back to the original point of the thread, IF I were in the market for a new trainer plane, I'd pick up a good solid older plane and have it all redone with the latest panel, paint, engine, etc... I bet the end cost would be around $175k, and it would perform better than those late model planes.
I flew a late model 172 for some IFR training, I was thoroughly impressed by its lack of performance!! And, it was not a hot day, I'm not a big buy, nor was the instructor, and the tanks were not full.
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Or... you could buy an older 172. Have it thoroughly checked out by a competent A&P. Have all the discrepancies fixed. Do whatever you need to the existing engine-- I'm assuming the A&P said it was economically repairable 'cause you bought it-- and you'd prolly have a better airplane that what is being built as new today at a far lesser cost.
 
Wagondriver said:
Just a fancy way to say librarian, there is only one library, and its not very big. Did you read the article? The job title may be executive director, but she is the librarian. Either way, the point was the large amount of compensation, with the extras like housing subsidy, and an $1100 per month health insurance policy, and other extras. I pay taxes for her compensation, I think its excessive, and when the economy was in the toilet and non government employees were getting reduced hours and or pay rates, she quit because her housing subsidy went down to $20k per year. Her other benefits did not change, nor her salary.
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The reason she gets a housing allowance and those wages is because the median home in Aspen is over $2.5 million. The median wage is $66,000 compared to the median wage for the US of $37,000.

She quit because she can’t afford to live in the community she was employed.
 
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camorton said:
Just curious about the advantages of this trade. Thought the AA-5 was supposed to be a pretty fast fixed gear, and the PA24 not generally a very fast retractable. Is the speed difference really more than about 20kts or so? How much more is the useful load?

C.
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My Grumman was a 110kt plane. My Comanche is closer to 160
Useful load on the Grumman was 860. Comanche is 1190 and significantly more spacious.
 
Can't wait to see the "why I bought the plane I did" video you've alluded to. The "so you like ADs" vid was just awesome.

My own wife balked, hard, at a '60-'61 182. In the end the baggage compartment couldn't fit enough even with an extended baggage mod and she pushed me to continue with a 206.
 
Wagondriver said:
Anyone here remember the Jimmy Carter days? Super high interest rates, super high inflation. It lasted more than a short while, it was great as a kid with a passbook savings account paying 12%, for anyone needing to borrow money, not so much. This economy we have now is going to get worse, and it will last for at least 3 to 4 more years.
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I remember those days. I lived through them. We bought a house in Colorado when I went to work for Martin Marrietta. 10.375% interest. I thought I was getting ripped off when I agreed to the terms and thought I had the best bargain around by the time we closed on the purchase. Interest rates were climbing through the roof.

Morgan3820 said:
Now...the government will spend a dollar to make sure nobody steals a dime.
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Nope. Change "dime" to "nickel" and I believe you. It was the same back in the late 1970s when I worked for "Uncle Sugar".

Morgan3820 said:
As AlleyCat says, at the federal level, my level, which ain't the bottom, I can't even let a contractor buy me lunch. I have to avoid even "the appearance of impropriety". I can't obligate the the federal government in any way. It is written as a disclaimer on my email signature. Anything, and I mean anything, over $2500 has to go out for 3 bids. It is a huge pain. Any organizational swag has to be paid for out of my pocket, no freebies. If there are donuts at a meeting, someone bought them and brought them in. There was a moron at a sister facility who walked home with a big screen TV...he went to federal prison. Lost all pension and benefits.
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Yup. I remember those days in the late 1970s, too. Then I left government service and went to work for a private company. Like night and day.

Then there was a company that I didn't go to work for and what I found out later made me very glad I didn't. The guy I would have been working for wound up in prison because he and another guy (also in the slammer) formed a company and every time they found out that the company that they worked for needed a piece of test equipment they bought it and rented it to the company. Sure glad I had nothing to do with them.
 
Ghery said:
IThen there was a company that I didn't go to work for and what I found out later made me very glad I didn't. The guy I would have been working for wound up in prison because he and another guy (also in the slammer) formed a company and every time they found out that the company that they worked for needed a piece of test equipment they bought it and rented it to the company. Sure glad I had nothing to do with them.
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There was a guy 'round here who got a couple of contracts servicing computers for state agencies. Probably honest at first (or the investigators just stopped digging once they had a file box full of paper), but when he got the third contract he just started shuffling the equipment between the three agencies while charging them for new equipment that he bought but immediately resold to his girlfriend (recording it as the sale of the old equipment for pennies on the dollar). When caught, and servicing a dozen agencies, he blamed it on "clerical errors..." (PS: It wasn't good detective work, the girlfriend made a deal and turned him in when he dumped her...)

A church known for its social outreach program had a similar scandal. Mucky-mucks in the church organization bought new cars, furniture, and kitchen appliances for their homes and sold the old ones at greatly inflated (as in "new") prices to the church without oversight by anyone who wasn't "in on the deal." Some went to the church, some to it's soup kitchen, some were given away by the church to "needy" families. When exposed-- it was a tax code violation because the church was tax exempt-- those involved claimed to be exempt from government oversight.
 
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All of these scams are so amateurish it is not even worth mentioning….now, printing trillions of dollars out of blue to the point where pretty much everyone in the country ends up with a pay cut despite getting a raise …that’s something !
 
Warmi said:
All of these scams are so amateurish it is not even worth mentioning….now, printing trillions of dollars out of blue to the point where pretty much everyone in the country ends up with a pay cut despite getting a raise …that’s something !
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"One mans death is a tragedy, a million dead is a statistic." -- "Uncle" Joseph Stalin
 
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