Plane Prices

Wagondriver said:
I doubt anyone not a government employee is going to be cash flow neutral in the coming years. I guess its going to be like Funemployment???
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My raise was a total of 2.7% and the rise in Social Security went up 2.9%. How much was inflation? I don’t think government employees are even close to neutral like you may think.
 
kyleb said:
You will not get a 90+ octane fuel by taking 91 octane auto fuel and removing the ethanol. Ethanol is an octane booster. With the proper mix to get the right RVP, you can blend a an unleaded fuel that would work fine in most non-turbocharged or extremely high (>8.5:1)compression engines. But probably it needs to be a dedicated new fuel spec like 94UL.
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That's not what I was claiming, sorry for the confusion. I was trying to explain that boosting octane was as simple as scrubbing ethanol from regular pump gas. Neither of them are a hard process. I personally would scrub the ethanol and then boost the octane.
 
And now, all the librarian needs to know is "Ctrl-Alt-Del."
 
write-stuff said:
The crazy price increases on 172s in particular is nothing new. It started about 5 years ago. I've been following them closely.
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Blancolirio had a vid on a new 172. $480,000 and an 18 month wait. It was nice, all glass and set up for training pilots to transition to jets. But $48k for a ragged out 172 is not bad considering the replacement cost.
 
Someone asked me Saturday what I would sell my 10 for... I said 500K. But as I think about that I'm not even sure. I really like that airplane!
 
I think I lucked out a little because it seems "trainer" type planes are sky rocketing while really old complex planes are not.
My Grumman Traveler + $4k got me the Comanche. Granted, Comanches are not in high demand but I am quite pleased with how it worked out.
 
I don't know where purchase prices are going, but I do know this: if you want a plane, and you can afford to purchase, MAINTAIN, & OPERATE it, you should buy it. The expense of owning any plane will surpass the price you paid for it in short order. Some faster than others.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I think I lucked out a little because it seems "trainer" type planes are sky rocketing while really old complex planes are not.
My Grumman Traveler + $4k got me the Comanche. Granted, Comanches are not in high demand but I am quite pleased with how it worked out.
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The problem with your logic is that Traveller is a nicer plane but … we can’t make perfect decisions , not all the time anyway.
 
I was predicting stagflation a year ago. It's taken longer to get here than I expected, but it looks like it's just around the corner. :(
 
kyleb said:
You will not get a 90+ octane fuel by taking 91 octane auto fuel and removing the ethanol. Ethanol is an octane booster. With the proper mix to get the right RVP, you can blend a an unleaded fuel that would work fine in most non-turbocharged or extremely high (>8.5:1)compression engines. But probably it needs to be a dedicated new fuel spec like 94UL.
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Joseph Matties said:
You can convert fuel fairly cheaply. Most people don't know this because most don't make fuel and additives for a living but if 100ll went away people would just buy pump gas and make it themselves. Just like you can clean fuel with water and take out the ethanol.
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Like already said, you can not make the fuel yourself just because you think you can remove the ethanol. The gas after removing the ethanol would be low quality low octane gas.

You have no idea how much gas we burn until you try to process it yourself. we burn a lot of gas.

What are you going to do with the polluted water that has ethanol in it. It takes lot's of water to do that and you can't just pour it down a storm sewer someplace. Not real safe messing with fuel either.

I am in the fuel business since 1983. I have seen many people attempt to make biodiesel for their pickup trucks. No one was successful for long doing that, there is way too much waste that you have to get rid of that people don't think of. Then in the long run it damages their engine, seen it many times.
 
Crashnburn said:
I was predicting stagflation a year ago. It's taken longer to get here than I expected, but it looks like it's just around the corner. :(
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Tbh, In Sha Allah. Time to pay the piper for the imprudence of consuming out of turn on the back of my stolen purchasing power. I welcome the asset class deflation that will follow increased lending rates , political correctness be damned. And i have a mortgage on a box in suburban copy-paste hell mind you, before i get accused of hypocrisy. Not everybody prays at the altar of the American religion of HELOC.
 
Joseph Matties said:
That's not what I was claiming, sorry for the confusion. I was trying to explain that boosting octane was as simple as scrubbing ethanol from regular pump gas. Neither of them are a hard process. I personally would scrub the ethanol and then boost the octane.
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As a chemist, I am really interested in the actual process that allows someone to simply and easily scrub ethanol from the mixture of alkenes, alkanes, alkynes and aromatics that is called regular pump gas.
 
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For years, the pilot population was shrinking, the fleet was getting older, and the number of new airplanes being built was low. In the last few years, the pilot population has been steady, and for most of this century, the number of new airplanes added to the fleet has been between low and very low. I suspect most of the Cessna 172 and Piper PA-28s added went to the large flight schools and not into private hands. Then, every year some airplanes are removed from the fleet from accidents, weather, wear, and neglect. Add all that together and you get a steady number of pilots chasing a slowly declining number of "right" airplanes, Bo's, Tigers, 172s 182s, PA-28s, PA-32s, etc., and demand-pull inflation is the result.
 
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hindsight2020 said:
Tbh, In Sha Allah. Time to pay the piper for the imprudence of consuming out of turn on the back of my stolen purchasing power. I welcome the asset class deflation that will follow increased lending rates , political correctness be damned. And i have a mortgage on a box in suburban copy-paste hell mind you, before i get accused of hypocrisy. Not everybody prays at the altar of the American religion of HELOC.
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I am waiting with my checkbook for a real good deal on a repossessed truck and maybe a fishing boat. :fcross:
 
Morgan3820 said:
As a chemist, I am really interested in the actual process that allows someone to simply and easily scrub ethanol from the mixture of alkenes, alkanes, alkynes and aromatics that is called regular pump gas.
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Take gas, blend in water, remove ethanol. Takes roughly a week or so if you do it correctly. That's the simple version without drawing a PFD for you. Not sure why its causing so much anger all of a sudden like I'm threatening peoples jobs or calling them stupid... It's also fairly off topic.

And chill out Gary Ward, it's not rocket science. Most people smart enough to get PPL could probably do it if they applied themselves. We are also talking about some very hypothetical extreme situations which need to exist for people to start making their own fuel. It's not about practical at that point, the point was it could be done.

https://sciencing.com/remove-ethanol-gasoline-7830109.html
 
Warmi said:
The problem with your logic is that Traveller is a nicer plane but … we can’t make perfect decisions , not all the time anyway.
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It was definitely in better condition. Based on utility alone, I prefer the new plane.
 
Joseph Matties said:
Take gas, blend in water, remove ethanol. Takes roughly a week or so if you do it correctly. That's the simple version without drawing a PFD for you. Not sure why its causing so much anger all of a sudden like I'm threatening peoples jobs or calling them stupid... It's also fairly off topic.

And chill out Gary Ward, it's not rocket science. Most people smart enough to get PPL could probably do it if they applied themselves. We are also talking about some very hypothetical extreme situations which need to exist for people to start making their own fuel. It's not about practical at that point, the point was it could be done.

https://sciencing.com/remove-ethanol-gasoline-7830109.html
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It is not that simple. But you are right about one thing. It is off topic
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
It was definitely in better condition. Based on utility alone, I prefer the new plane.
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Traveler being a nicer plane than the Comanche? I don’t think that has ever been said before. A Traveler can’t beat the pa24 in any category of performance or physical spec.
 
Gmonnig said:
Traveler being a nicer plane than the Comanche? I don’t think that has ever been said before. A Traveler can’t beat the pa24 in any category of performance or physical spec.
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It beats it in the category of “I want to just buzz around and look at stuff” which what most non-commercial flying is about anyway :)
 
Joseph Matties said:
I kicked around the idea of buying a plane for months. Was the market overpriced? will it come down? will I be upside down in my loan? If the world goes to crap can I get out and be fine? Then one day I read a post that resonated with me. The guy said," It doesn't matter what you do a plane will never make much financial sense, you do it cause you love flying and you make it work." So I bought a plane a month ago and have put 12 hours on it since. I can already get more than I paid for it but probably just enough more to cover the taxes I paid on it.... ouch. Truth is, not a second goes by now that I don't think of flying. This is my first plane and going up in my own plane is surreal. Even my wife keeps commenting that it doesn't seem real that we own an airplane. There are a lot of people that will tell you not to go into debt for an airplane, or don't buy something you can't pay cash for or whatever other wild rules they came up with. It's an airplane... you either want to live that life of aircraft ownership or you don't. Money has little to do with it, you'll make it work somehow if you love it.

1 year from now you'll kick yourself for not buying when they were cheaper and interest rates were good. Inflation won't go down and interest rates will go up. The plane price my come down some but the affordability of it will continue to climb.
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Sometimes (most of the time) when I see people trying to justify owning an airplane, waffling about buying, etc., it brings to mind how short life can be. A pilot may not be here to fly when they have saved enough money, they may no longer be able to get a medical or even BasicMed, etc., etc. My thinking is if you really want to dive into aircraft ownership, just do it. You may not be able to afford a new Cessna 172 at close to half a million, but you can maybe afford an old Champ, a Peteinpol, a 50 year old Cessna 150 or something.
 
Gmonnig said:
Traveler being a nicer plane than the Comanche? I don’t think that has ever been said before. A Traveler can’t beat the pa24 in any category of performance or physical spec.
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Four physically fit and coordinated people can get into and out of it quicker :).
 
Grum.Man said:
I don’t see how people are doing it. My grocery bill has gone up $30-40 a week, gas has almost doubled, my power bill is up, the same car I bought 3 years ago is almost 10k more now. House prices have gone up 100k from a couple years ago. Where the heck are people getting the money to afford these airplanes?? I got my usual 3% raise at work, inflation was like 6% so basically I got a pay cut! I’m certainly not going to be buying any airplanes are the current prices so guess I’ll slowly be pushed out of the hobby.
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Stimulus, either the area has improved and is desirable or the area is crap and those prices will drop again (housing wise). Probably not to pre 2020 levels though.

Airplane wise, you have increasing install costs and avionics costs that will keep well equipped aircraft prices where they are at. If internal equipment is crap, high time and missing logs then that will surely decrease in value in the future.
 
Radar Contact said:
Government employees raise this year was 1/3 (or less) of inflation.
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That’s inflation of the GS scale, if you are an idiot in government you’ll also see a step increase, but you should also be looking at a grade increase.
 
Oldmanb777 said:
How much you hang on to is just as important as how much you make. Anyway, try looking forward on a fixed income. It looks real grim with inflation, taxes, and dropping stock market. I was watching for the right plane or partnership to come available. But probably not now. It would need to be a perfect fit for me to be interested, now.
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Exactly, the new administration has made sure of this. Very sad and a grim outlook to be in the retired group now.
 
LesGawlik said:
Some government employees work at a job paying $200k for 20 years and suddenly are worth $200 million!
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Not really, federal government employees can not earn more than congressional members and it takes time to get to the high levels. On the other hand, some local cities, counties and states do overpay their workers and have mismanaged budgets.
 
somorris said:
You may not be able to afford a new Cessna 172 at close to half a million, but you can maybe afford an old Champ, a Pietenpol, a 50 year old Cessna 150 or something.
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There are still "good deals," but in this market they don't last long (if at all) and tend to go by word of mouth rather than being advertised.

How do you buy a $17,000 Cub that suffered a prop strike without legally having to do anything to the engine? Someone I know did. 'Course he also bought a new (to him) wing 'cause it was cheaper than the bow, spars, ribs, and aileron the (other plane's) prop chewed up. Someone else bought a $20,000 Cessna 150 Patroller (tailwheel mod, big plexiglass door windows and-- I think it was-- 37 useful gallons in the fuel tanks) when the company replaced it. Both were bought by someone on the right field at the right time.

I have actually bought "options to buy" on two airplanes that might get sold in the future. I know the people, so hopefully they will be honored.
 
mandm said:
Exactly, the new administration has made sure of this. Very sad and a grim outlook to be in the retired group now.
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'Going in Style' (2017) a movie starring Alan Arkin, Michael Cain and Mogan Freeman shouldn't have to be shelved in the 'retirement-planning' section at Blockbusters. (Showing my age, or... Actually specifying that it be on Betamax would be...)
 
LesGawlik said:
Some government employees work at a job paying $200k for 20 years and suddenly are worth $200 million!
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mandm said:
Not really, federal government employees can not earn more than congressional members and it takes time to get to the high levels. On the other hand, some local cities, counties and states do overpay their workers and have mismanaged budgets.
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I think he was suggesting that some (too many) government employees-- like the Federal ones I dealt with in *****, and the State of **** ones my parents dealt with growing up, and the ****** County Health Department ones a family member deals with have their hands out. And if not greased, you are out of business.
 
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Lois said:
I think he was suggesting that some (too many) government employees-- like the Federal ones I dealt with in *****, and the State of **** ones my parents dealt with growing up, and the ****** County Health Department ones a family member deals with have their hands out. And if not greased, you are out of business.
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Generally, they should not be investigating multi-millionaires who became public servants ( Trump or Pritzker ) but public servants who became millionaires while in public service ( just about any high up politician like Clinton,Obama, Pelosi, Biden and on and on )
 
Lois said:
I think he was suggesting that some (too many) government employees-- like the Federal ones I dealt with in *****, and the State of **** ones my parents dealt with growing up, and the ****** County Health Department ones a family member deals with have their hands out. And if not greased, you are out of business.
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Federal employee here. You have no idea what you’re talking about if you think bribery or skimming funds is a real issue. I spend way too much time filing financial disclosure forms and battling our procurement officers in order to buy anything. And no, I’m not worth $200 million at the end off my career.
 
FormerHangie said:
For years, the pilot population was shrinking, the fleet was getting older, and the number of new airplanes being built was low. In the last few years, the pilot population has been steady, and for most of this century, the number of new airplanes added to the fleet has been between low and very low. I suspect most of the Cessna 172 and Piper PA-28s added went to the large flight schools and not into private hands. Then, every year some airplanes are removed from the fleet from accidents, weather, wear, and neglect. Add all that together and you get a steady number of pilots chasing a slowly declining number of "right" airplanes, Bo's, Tigers, 172s 182s, PA-28s, PA-32s, etc., and demand-pull inflation is the result.
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Not to mention an ever-increasing number of dollars (not backed by anything tangible) chasing too few goods.
 
mandm said:
That’s inflation of the GS scale, if you are an idiot in government you’ll also see a step increase, but you should also be looking at a grade increase.
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Huh? Not all government employees are in the GS scale that have step/grades.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Federal employee here. You have no idea what you’re talking about if you think bribery or skimming funds is a real issue. I spend way too much time filing financial disclosure forms and battling our procurement officers in order to buy anything. And no, I’m not worth $200 million at the end off my career.
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Federal is very different than state.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Federal employee here. You have no idea what you’re talking about if you think bribery or skimming funds is a real issue. I spend way too much time filing financial disclosure forms and battling our procurement officers in order to buy anything. And no, I’m not worth $200 million at the end off my career.
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Now...the government will spend a dollar to make sure nobody steals a dime.
 
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