Plane in wires near KGAI (Montgomery County, MD)

Jeff767 said:
Nothing bails you out of breaking minimums. He was even warned he was low. That should have triggered a immediate go around.
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Yep. Multiple other fields close with lower approaches, KFDK, KHGR and KMRB and all are a short Uber ride home. No excuse to duck low on purpose but watching this makes me think he was so far behind the airplane he was a witness to the mishap and not PIC.

 
Jeff767 said:
Nothing bails you out of breaking minimums. He was even warned he was low. That should have triggered a immediate go around.
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Looks like he did spend too much energy on trying to get there...
 
Jeff767 said:
Nothing bails you out of breaking minimums. He was even warned he was low. That should have triggered a immediate go around.
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agreed 100%. What happens is you get so far behind the airplane (easy to do in a mooney under hard IMC) that it won't matter what electronic gadgetry you have, not to mention a radio warning from ATC that you're too low. Your mind simply cannot process any more information.

I've seen this happen many times IFR students. I tell them that they are below altitude for a segment of the approach chart and they don't respond at alland just continue to descend or not make any correction. If it's safe, i'll let it go and see if they realize the mistake they made.
 
Hi

Ed Haywood said:
I'm not an IFR pilot so please excuse if this is a dumb question, but ... wondering if 3D synthetic vision or some of the other flat panel gadgetry available now might have bailed them out of a bad spot?
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Nah, don't think so. Trying to fly vfr using a tiny device that has something like synthetic vision in dogsh*t weather... that's probably not going to work unless you have goggles that will penetrate fog.

I am currently training for my IFR... and I can tell you: IFR in VMC is easy. It really gets scary at times in really bad weather.

It's dark, it's wet, you don't see a thing. It's ugly.

But it's fun, too :)

Tobias
 
911 call says he had gone to the "minimum altitude but must have gone a bit lower. That's a bit of an understatement. Going 400' below the MDA is bad enough, but less than 200' AGL is full of uncharted obstacles like cellphone towers and stuff. The tower he hit (or one nearby in the same high-tension line) is even on the approach plate.

Looking at the plane pictures, it looks like he might have snagged it with the tail. A little higher or lower, or if he'd been flying something with the tail the right way around might have missed it :)
 
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DenverJayhawk said:
click the suspend button on gps to sequence to the missed approach holding fix.

notice that the 5c’s follows the golden rule of aviate navigate communicate
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Not to distract from the thread.. and this is a minor point.

But, I have been reading about the GTN750 lately and is it not true that at the map, a popup appears and you are offered "Remain Suspended" ie Suspend = no automatic wp sequencing, or the other option "Activate GPS Missed Approach" ie Not Suspended, but continue on to the first wp in the missed?

So, the term Suspend means own nav, and Unsuspend means navigator-directed navigation?
Thanks
 
Here's the guy's previous accident (1992):

THE PILOT OF THE PA-32R-300 ELECTED TO TURN INTO A BOX CANYON DURING HIS EN ROUTE CLIMB TO CRUISE. AT THE TIME HE TURNED INTO THE CANYON, THE PILOT FELT THAT THE RATE OF CLIMB WOULD ASSURE CLEARANCE OF THE RIDGE AT THE END OF THE CANYON. AFTER ENTERING THE CANYON THE AIRCRAFT ENCOUNTERED AN AREA OF DOWNDRAFTS. THE DESCENDING AIR REDUCED THE RATE OF CLIMB TO AN EXTENT THAT WOULD NOT ALLOW THE AIRCRAFT TO OUTCLIMB THE RISING TERRAIN. BY THIS TIME THE PILOT FELT THAT, BECAUSE OF THE NARROWNESS OF THE CANYON, HE COULD NOT SUCCESSFULLY REVERSE COURSE. HE THEREFORE ELECTED TO CONTINUE UP THE CANYON, WHERE HE EVENTUALLY FLEW THE AIRCRAFT THROUGH A CONTROLLED IMPACT WITH THE TERRAIN.

Probable Cause and Findings
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
THE PILOT'S POOR INFLIGHT DECISION. FACTORS INCLUDE DOWNDRAFTS AND A BOX CANYON.
 
if accurate, i'm guessing he will have a hard time finding insurance on his next airplane
 
People weren't killed but they were seriously hurt. I'm surprised the puns haven't been more polarizing.
 
Are we sure someone on board didn't have a magnetic personality? Perhaps the current drew them in?
 
DenverJayhawk said:
if accurate, i'm guessing he will have a hard time finding insurance on his next airplane
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This one was a "club" plane (1/6 ownership). One of the shares came up for sale a few years ago I recall.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Not to distract from the thread.. and this is a minor point.

But, I have been reading about the GTN750 lately and is it not true that at the map, a popup appears and you are offered "Remain Suspended" ie Suspend = no automatic wp sequencing, or the other option "Activate GPS Missed Approach" ie Not Suspended, but continue on to the first wp in the missed?

So, the term Suspend means own nav, and Unsuspend means navigator-directed navigation?
Thanks
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I've only had my 650xi for a couple weeks now but it did have a popup like you cite right around the MAP.
 
those pics give me a bit of the creeps. A good friend of mine from college lost his dad to an accident eerily like this....scud running a mooney somewhere up near Cleveland, OH back in the 1980's... a few years before I learned to fly. He was the first "ordinary" person that I knew of that was a pilot. Up till then being a pilot was a daydream that I thought was only for the ultra rich.
 
One of the injured was released from the hospital, about noon the next day, Monday.
 
Hi,

Brad W said:
those pics give me a bit of the creeps. A good friend of mine from college lost his dad to an accident eerily like this....scud running a mooney somewhere up near Cleveland, OH back in the 1980's... a few years before I learned to fly. He was the first "ordinary" person that I knew of that was a pilot. Up till then being a pilot was a daydream that I thought was only for the ultra rich.
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Fast airplanes and scud running do not mix at all. With an L4 you could get away with something like that... but today with all the antennas, powerlines, windmills... it's not a good idea. In reality probably never was.

The faster the plane the more dangerous it is.

I bet he literally did not see the power line coming.

I live & fly in a mountainous region (up to ~14000ft). Weather can be very difficult in winter. People know of the dangers - and still: Every other year we have someone who thinkgs it's a good idea to go flying in conditions with low ceilings and / or fog. Some even try at night - with an obituary written by the local NTSB-like organizsation.

Moving Maps et. al. don't replace a solid IFR training. Not at all. And with single engine piston aircrafts... in icing conditions (that do prevail here in winter)... some people really seem to have an urge to end their lifes.

Everything happens for a reason. And that reason mostly is physics.

Tobias
 
Hi

geezer said:
One of the injured was released from the hospital, about noon the next day, Monday.
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Good to hear. Let's hope both do recover. Every landing you can walk away is a good one - that part they managed quite well so far. Maybe we should give a thought to the "don't make every mistake there is - you won't live long enough to make them all" bonmot...

Tobias
 
good lord, problems started WAY before the approach.....

 
Hi

eman1200 said:
good lord, problems started WAY before the approach.....

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The question is: What did go wrong - and where did that come from?

Defect instruments and then pilot overload as a consequence?

Tobias
 
Who was he talking to? Was that Potomac?
 
Tobias Göller said:
Let's hope both do recover. Every landing you can walk away is a good one - that part they managed quite well so far.
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They didn’t exactly walk away…it was a pretty elaborate rescue of both people and plane. But they’ll walk again, so that’s good

And “Any landing from which you can be retrieved by a large boom truck while your plane is hoisted down in pieces by a crane is marginal at best” just doesn’t roll off the tongue like the original version.
 
So as an instrument student, I ask this of the CII's and experienced instrument pilots: Is is accurate to say that when a pilot is task saturated, and starts to drop tasks/information, that they can't generally tell the difference between over-saturated (dropping tasks) and saturated (at exactly 100%)? Asking because if so, it would seem really dangerous to be flying an approach at the task saturation limit....because you might already be screwing it up and not realizing it.

Maybe an obvious question.
 
eman1200 said:
good lord, problems started WAY before the approach.....
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Agreed.

Distractions, task saturation, unfamiliar equipment, other things.

Definite Swiss cheese happening.
 
Albany Tom said:
So as an instrument student, I ask this of the CII's and experienced instrument pilots: Is is accurate to say that when a pilot is task saturated, and starts to drop tasks/information, that they can't generally tell the difference between over-saturated (dropping tasks) and saturated (at exactly 100%)? Asking because if so, it would seem really dangerous to be flying an approach at the task saturation limit....because you might already be screwing it up and not realizing it.

Maybe an obvious question.
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Instrument pilot here. Not a bad question at all. A lot of instrument training is learning how to multitask as effectively as possible (the human brain is not wired for it, all we can do is approximate true preemptive multitasking), but even then there is a definite cliff -- 100% saturation is by definition you still have control but can't take anything else on, just over that is a cliff rather like hypoxia where you may or may not recognize you are that impaired.

Part of remaining a safe instrument pilot (aside from proficiency) is knowing roughly when you are getting near saturation, and knowing what tasks can be dropped or how to otherwise reduce workload before hitting saturation. That means knowing when to ask ATC for straight and level when diagnosing failures, when to break off an unstable approach before it snowballs into plowing into a power line pylon, etc.

Part of proficiency should be recurrent training in how to handle unexpected situations under the hood. This guy couldn't even hold a heading, and even if that was a systems failure he should have declared, climbed toward safety, sorted the systems problem, and came back in. Crossing Dulles approach path apparently barely under control even had approach worried, based on the recorded comms.:eek:
 
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Ed Haywood said:
I'm not an IFR pilot so please excuse if this is a dumb question, but ... wondering if 3D synthetic vision or some of the other flat panel gadgetry available now might have bailed them out of a bad spot?
Click to expand...

The towers are marked on the approach chart, plus there is a step down fix (JOXOX) specifically to clear the tower by 700 ft.
 
Tobias Göller said:
Hi,



Fast airplanes and scud running do not mix at all. With an L4 you could get away with something like that... but today with all the antennas, powerlines, windmills... it's not a good idea. In reality probably never was.

The faster the plane the more dangerous it is.

I bet he literally did not see the power line coming.

I live & fly in a mountainous region (up to ~14000ft). Weather can be very difficult in winter. People know of the dangers - and still: Every other year we have someone who thinkgs it's a good idea to go flying in conditions with low ceilings and / or fog. Some even try at night - with an obituary written by the local NTSB-like organizsation.

Moving Maps et. al. don't replace a solid IFR training. Not at all. And with single engine piston aircrafts... in icing conditions (that do prevail here in winter)... some people really seem to have an urge to end their lifes.

Everything happens for a reason. And that reason mostly is physics.

Tobias
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There can't be a worse sin in IFR flying than busting minimums. Fast or slow doesn't matter. The only time I've been taught to bust minimums is if you are on fire or some other critical emergency while on an ILS, in which case, keep the needles centered until you collide with the runway at TDZE.

Flying as a safety pilot (or as instructor) will give you a better sense of how close some of these obtacles are during the very last stages of a final approach. I've watched with nervousness as we pass uncomfortably close to obtacles while the pilot under the hood is oblivious of the hazard. Of course everything is within TERPS specs, but combined altimeter tolerances and being a bit below glidepath, it doesn't take much to get uncomfortably close. If it were a visual approach, we wouldn't be flying that close.
 
Albany Tom said:
So as an instrument student, I ask this of the CII's and experienced instrument pilots: Is is accurate to say that when a pilot is task saturated, and starts to drop tasks/information, that they can't generally tell the difference between over-saturated (dropping tasks) and saturated (at exactly 100%)? Asking because if so, it would seem really dangerous to be flying an approach at the task saturation limit....because you might already be screwing it up and not realizing it.

Maybe an obvious question.
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CFII here. My experience with a task saturated students is they cannot tell that they are dropping things. You can even say something to them and often early in their training, they won't even acknowledge that you are speaking to them during the high work load phases of the approach.

IFR flying is about 2 things, IMO. 1. Staying ahead of the plane 2. Communicating. You HAVE to be ahead of the plane and know what you need to do before it happens. This is what stumps students early on until they get the Ah-Ha moment. And it's aided by checklists and procedures for all phases of a flight and it's beaten into their heads until they see it in their dreams. Once they can consistently stay ahead of the plane, then task saturation tends to reduce and suddenly their Comms improves exponentially.
 
The RNAV 14 approach to GAI is not terribly complicated. The Live ATC record does not inspire confidence in IFR proficiency during this incident. The WX at the time was also not promising, even for a highly proficient pilot. There are some lessons here for those paying attention. The outcome could have been far worse.
 
Albany Tom said:
So as an instrument student, I ask this of the CII's and experienced instrument pilots: Is is accurate to say that when a pilot is task saturated, and starts to drop tasks/information, that they can't generally tell the difference between over-saturated (dropping tasks) and saturated (at exactly 100%)? Asking because if so, it would seem really dangerous to be flying an approach at the task saturation limit....because you might already be screwing it up and not realizing it.

Maybe an obvious question.
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In my experience flying instrument approaches should be kind of boring if you're proficient. Not boring like, "this sucks", to the contrary, I maintain its one of the most fun things you can do in an airplane. I mean boring like, "okay, now I have to sit here for a minute until I turn/descend". If it feels like things are happening fast, you're behind, which is a bad place to be.
 
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