Plane Flippin' Advice

OkieFlyer

OkieFlyer

En-Route
Joined
May 16, 2011
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3,225
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Lindsay, OK
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Display name:
Andrew L.
I came across a really good deal on an a six seat single on the extreme low end of the market, and I'm thinking about flipping it. Engine, paint, and interior are in good shape, but the panel is dated. Old Bendix King radio and nav/com, DME, VOR/GS, old school storm scope, and a wing leveler. No GPS at all.

My question is: Is it worth it to put any money into the panel before re-selling?

I don't figure one would get their money back on 60 grand worth of top of the line stuff, but seems like folks are really into G5s these days, and it makes sense to have at least a Garmin 430 or better. Maybe a 2 Axis autopilot?

I've never had anything but steam gauges and portable GPS in a plane, and expensive avionics never have been particularly appealing to me. I'm not sure how the average six seat travelling machine buyer thinks when it comes to stuff on the panel. It's a little out of my wheelhouse.

Let's say you had a PA-32 300 to sell with mid-time reman engine, solid paint and interior. If you put 15-20K into the panel, would it be worth an additional 15-20K, less than 15-20K more, or more than 20K more after upgrade?

Seems like the aircraft market is all over the place, so just looking for a little advice.
 
I'd think it would increase the activity you'd see for buyers, but I doubt you'd see much of a return on investment, if any. I'd put it out there as-is and see if you get your asking price. If no takers, then maybe put in a few items to serve as eye candy.
 
Can you do the work yourself? If not, very unlikely that you'll make any money improving and selling. As mentioned above, an as-is flip (or a flip after MINOR cosmetic improvements) is probably best option.
 
OkieFlyer said:
so just looking for a little advice.
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FWIW: while I never "flipped" airplanes, I have in the past spruced up some lonely ramp queens and made a buck or two. However, I never put a nickel into the paint, interior, or instrument panel except to clean it and make sure everything works and is tidy. Those 3 items tend to be very personal to the pilot/owner and you'll never make your money back. Price the aircraft at market once its cleaned up and 100% operational then use the those items to negotiate.
 
Walboy said:
If you have to ask...
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What?

Is it silly to ask fellow aviators about aviation stuff? I haven't bought any avionics or flipped any planes, so it doesn't hurt to seek advice from someone who might have done so.
 
Do you own a plane now? Would this be a good upgrade? If yes, sell your current plane instead...
 
Clean it up....best you can....and sell it as is. Any $$$ you put in will not return in full.
 
Country Flier said:
Do you own a plane now? Would this be a good upgrade? If yes, sell your current plane instead...
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Just sold my 182 to upgrade to a six seater. This is the upgrade we were looking for, and it is a keeper, however, I know I can make another chunk of dough by flipping it. Then maybe upgrade to an even nicer plane :)
 
OkieFlyer said:
Just sold my 182 to upgrade to a six seater. This is the upgrade we were looking for, and it is a keeper, however, I know I can make another chunk of dough by flipping it. Then maybe upgrade to an even nicer plane :)
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I don't know what your state tax situation is, but in my state, you'd have to profit pretty good just to break even after paying taxes. But if you plan to wait for the coming, eventual "market correction", you may do quite well.
 
Skyrys62 said:
A six seat single is what you're looking for isn't it?
Or are you now in the 5M range?
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My friend, this is actually a great plane for our needs. BUT, it's such a good deal in an insane market that I can't ignore the money making potential. Therefore, I'm going to buy it, fly it, but stick it on the market in the meantime.
 
you'd definitely either make a decent amount of money or lose a decent amount. or come out around even. I'm sure of it.

any chance you'd fix it up with the intention to sell but then want to keep it?
 
eman1200 said:
you'd definitely either make a decent amount of money or lose a decent amount. or come out around even. I'm sure of it.

any chance you'd fix it up with the intention to sell but then want to keep it?
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No, I'll have to borrow money for avionics. If I can't profit from it, I'll leave it alone. I don't have enough interest in the avionics to spend my own money on it.
 
Country Flier said:
I don't know what your state tax situation is, but in my state, you'd have to profit pretty good just to break even after paying taxes. But if you plan to wait for the coming, eventual "market correction", you may do quite well.
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3.25% excise tax on purchase price. Pretty confident I can make 50%+ on the flip.
 
I say friggin' do it - even if you don't come out ahead you've got a nice six seater to fly.
 
eman1200 said:
you'd definitely either make a decent amount of money or lose a decent amount. or come out around even. I'm sure of it.

any chance you'd fix it up with the intention to sell but then want to keep it?
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This sounds likes a take on the ol’ honey I have it listed for sale scam. It’s the honey, we can make some bucks on it variant
 
I will neither say yea or nay but will ask you some questions to ponder, though I realize that you probably already are.

How many airplanes have you bought?
How many have you sold?
How many avionics upgrades have you done?
How much do you know about what is airworthy and what isn’t?
You say that the engine is in good shape. Was that based on your own inspection and analysis?
Do you have an IA that you trust to tell you the truth and not screw you?
Do you have an avionics guy who will help you shop for used components?
Do you know anyone at the FSDO that could offer you advice on any potential regulatory issues?
How long can you afford to have your money tied up?
How much money are you willing to lose?
Do you like gladiator movies?
 
If you want to spend a few $$ to enhance the value, I'd say - Interior.. lowest cost and makes a big difference in perception. Seats, side panels and carpet.. maybe a few grand
 
SkyDog58 said:
I will neither say yea or nay but will ask you some questions to ponder, though I realize that you probably already are.

How many airplanes have you bought? 1
How many have you sold? 1
How many avionics upgrades have you done? None. Hence the inquiry.
How much do you know about what is airworthy and what isn’t? I'd like to think quite a bit, but I'm not an IA
You say that the engine is in good shape. Was that based on your own inspection and analysis? My A/P has done the last 4-5 annuals including the most recent one about 3 weeks ago, visual inspection looks good, compressions good, mags rebuilt, runs smooth, 800-ish hrs since reman, 200-ish hrs on three blade prop, logs complete(only read the last 20 years or so though which includes the reman), ADs complied with, and it flew mighty fine. No oil analyses available.
Do you have an IA that you trust to tell you the truth and not screw you? Without a doubt. A couple of them.
Do you have an avionics guy who will help you shop for used components? No.
Do you know anyone at the FSDO that could offer you advice on any potential regulatory issues? No. Like what?
How long can you afford to have your money tied up? Indefinitely.
How much money are you willing to lose? None. Assuming the market doesn't take a dump while it's down for upgrades, I could put 30K into it and still be under market. Not really looking to spend 30K, but some reasonable upgrades like a gently used 430/530 and a G5 or 2 may be warranted. Let me be clear about this, I'm not talking about filling it full of glass.
Do you like gladiator movies? I am Spartacus!
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Hang 4 said:
If you want to spend a few $$ to enhance the value, I'd say - Interior.. lowest cost and makes a big difference in perception. Seats, side panels and carpet.. maybe a few grand
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I agree. I did exactly that on my last plane. Installed a custom two-tone cloth and vinyl interior, all new foam, and carpet myself for $2200 and probably made an additional 10-15K. A big key to success on that is the ability to do it myself using cheaper,, nicer, non-aviation specific materials. A similar interior done professionally would have cost several thousand. However, the plane in question isn't in need of interior upgrade in my opinion. It certainly could be made better, but it's in nice condition. Unfortunately, avionics is a little beyond my skill set, so I'd have to pay the labor and use high dollar TSO'd stuff. If panel upgrades aren't economically justifiable, then it will remain as-is if I sell it. If I keep it, it'll likely get a panel mounted portable GPS like Garmin 696/796 or the like.
 
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I always liked ya, okie. but you flying a low wing, heck you can sleep with my sister!
 
eman1200 said:
I always liked ya, okie. but you flying a low wing, heck you can sleep with my sister!
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Sweet! Plenty of room for that in the Six.

I've always wanted a plane I can't see the ground in. :rolleyes: I feel like a traitor.
 
schmookeeg said:
"Sucks less than...", yep.

Still not a reason to buy the thing, but, YOLO and all that.
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Oh, no. I probably didn't make myself clear. I'm buying the plane anyway whether I flip it or not. This is the plane my family is needing to upgrade to, and it'll do quite nicely. The flipping part just came about because I'm able to get it way under the current, stupid market, and there is potential to quickly make a sizeable chunk of dough. I'm going to start flying my family around in this thing immediately. In the meantime, I'll put it on the market, and if somebody bites, I'll sell it and buy an even better one with the proceeds. Does that make more sense?

The only question was whether panel upgrades had the potential to make more money in a sale than they cost to buy and install, just like the interior upgrade worked for me in the 182 I just sold.

Just trying to make money here :)
 
OkieFlyer said:
Oh, no. I probably didn't make myself clear. I'm buying the plane anyway whether I flip it or not. This is the plane my family is needing to upgrade to, and it'll do quite nicely. The flipping part just came about because I'm able to get it way under the current, stupid market, and there is potential to quickly make a sizeable chunk of dough. I'm going to start flying my family around in this thing immediately. In the meantime, I'll put it on the market, and if somebody bites, I'll sell it and buy an even better one with the proceeds. Does that make more sense?

The only question was whether panel upgrades had the potential to make more money in a sale than they cost to buy and install, just like the interior upgrade worked for me in the 182 I just sold.

Just trying to make money here :)
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You’re not getting panel work done “quickly” these days, so that kind of makes the decision for you.
 
Salty said:
You’re not getting panel work done “quickly” these days, so that kind of makes the decision for you.
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10-4.

Yeah, I have no idea how long such things take, so that's a good thing to know. Thank you.
 
If this was 6 months ago, yeah. But we have macro risks that will continue to percolate through the economy… risky.

At University I had a roommate from Finland - super smart guy. He’d say, “you have to risk it, to make the biscuit”. So keeping in tune with those immortal words .. I’d say full send!
 
It seems like if this is the plane you want, selling it and buying another is just a lot of work to you you to the same place for the same money. Say you bought it for 60k, and sell it for the market price of $100k. Now you have 40k but no airplane and the ones you want are still priced at 100. So you end up spending another 60k for the market price of the plane and are right back where you started.
Am I missing something?
 
TomF said:
It seems like if this is the plane you want, selling it and buying another is just a lot of work to you you to the same place for the same money. Say you bought it for 60k, and sell it for the market price of $100k. Now you have 40k but no airplane and the ones you want are still priced at 100. So you end up spending another 60k for the market price of the plane and are right back where you started.
Am I missing something?
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I think we can put that even more clearly: if you buy a plane worth 100k paying only 60k, sell it for 100k and then look to buy another plane for the same money, wouldn't you be better off avoiding the entire rigmarole, and keeping the first plane?
To make this worth the effort you should sell the plane, and the buy a new one worth 150k for 100k. But if you can do that consistently, then you will end up with a Gulfstream, eventually :)
 
After playing around on vRef for almost a year now, the biggest bang for the buck seems to be a new interior. As far as I can tell adding 30 AMU in avionics might get you 10 AMU more when you sell.
 
I would talk to an avionics shop, and ask them what it will cost. It's probably worth it if your buy price is correct. What will croak you is unexpected repairs.
 
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