Plane crashes into homes in San Diego, Ca

The audio was hideous. He missed a dozen chances from SoCal to right things and failed.

This is the right time for that "he was so far behind the airplane, he'd be late to the crash scene" anecdote to come true, but I suspect he's in the crater along with a few burnt C340A pieces and a brown ballcap. :mad:

Rotten airmanship that got innocent people killed. I don't generally like barking at CFIs in a pilot's past, but this time may warrant it. I'm gonna stop complaining about onerous insurance checkout requirements for a little bit too.
 
CRQFlier said:
That's why I was wondering why SEE would call 22g as traffic. SEE tells the helo to follow (a different) Cessna right base to final. I would have expected SEE to make a few calls to 22G asking intentions since 22g had entered SEE airspace.

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Because he wasn't on their frequency?
If someone is displaying obvious signs they're losing control of their aircraft they certainly don't have the bandwidth to look for traffic.
At that point his intentions were avoiding the nearest planet and it wasn't going well.
 
Looking at FlightAware looks like he flew the pants off that plane.
My buddy had a 340 for awhile. He flew the pants off it too. Of all his planes that one had the most vacuum failures
 
Pure speculation, but maybe he saw Gillespie coming out of the clouds and then realized that wasn't where he was going and became disoriented going in and out of the clouds.
 
Lindberg said:
Pure speculation, but maybe he saw Gillespie coming out of the clouds and then realized that wasn't where he was going and became disoriented going in and out of the clouds.
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It's all speculation as of now.
 
aftCG said:
Because he wasn't on their frequency?
If someone is displaying obvious signs they're losing control of their aircraft they certainly don't have the bandwidth to look for traffic.
At that point his intentions were avoiding the nearest planet and it wasn't going well.
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Not my point. Usually when an aircraft enters a tower's delta the tower controller barks at them a few times - say intentions, etc. - even when the plane is not on frequency. There's none of that on the SEE ATC recording that I heard.

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Lindberg said:
Tower would know he was up with Approach and what he was supposed to be doing because Tower and Approach can coordinate.
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He was on approach to MYF, not SEE. No doubt socal and MYF were coordinated. I suppose SoCal could have contacted SEE to expect a vectored broken approach from MYF. Who knows. That's why I need to go listen again. I just thought the SEE controller traffic call was odd.

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The FlightAware data if accurate may be revealing. It looks like he did start climbing.....but rather abruptly, and the airspeed fell off quite a bit - down to about 100kts. That's when he starts descending again (and SoCal is getting on his case). Wonder if he was finding it challenging to fly the missed while reconfiguring the airplane?

Other thing that I thought was interesting is in the security cam crash videos, it doesn't seem like your typical loss of control stall/spin. The nose is down and in a bank, but there doesn't appear to be any change in bank angle the whole way to the ground.
 
Mutts said:
Stroke?
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I fellow who owned the hangar next to the one I am renting had a stroke or heartache just before TO last week. Float plane, plane drifted for over an hour before it beached. RIP Gary and all the folks hurt in this accident.
 
AKBill said:
I fellow who owned the hangar next to the one I am renting had a stroke or heartache just before TO last week. Float plane, plane drifted for over an hour before it beached. RIP Gary and all the folks hurt in this accident.
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Just goes to show that a First Class Medical is no guarantee...
 
schmookeeg said:
The audio was hideous. He missed a dozen chances from SoCal to right things and failed.

This is the right time for that "he was so far behind the airplane, he'd be late to the crash scene" anecdote to come true, but I suspect he's in the crater along with a few burnt C340A pieces and a brown ballcap. :mad:

Rotten airmanship that got innocent people killed. I don't generally like barking at CFIs in a pilot's past, but this time may warrant it. I'm gonna stop complaining about onerous insurance checkout requirements for a little bit too.
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.. his track was laser straight the whole way.. makes me think he was messing with the AP and got behind. He was cavalier with his radio work until he lost the localizer, then things went south. You have to know when you're getting behind, fly level, ask ATC for help, the Socal folks are some of the nicest out there. Asking approach if he was cleared to land was a big clue that he's all out of sorts. What a disgrace
 
CRQFlier said:
I just thought the SEE controller traffic call was odd.
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My home base KEMT is a class-D airport near the LAX RWY24 downwind-to-base corner. Many times the large jets are vectored and skim on the top of class-D at 2500 feet, within 5 miles. The tower controller always calls out the traffic and issue a wake turbulence warning for the upwind RWY19 aircraft.
 
I listened to the audio tapes and have looked into what I can. First off, the plane was a Cessna 340. In my opinion, not a particularly difficult aircraft to fly although you are dealing with multi engine, pressurization, etc. so it is certainly more complicated than a Bonanza. The pilot apparently had owned this plane for some time and had a good amount of time in it. As I look at FlightAware, it flew regularly. The pilot/owner was a member of TTCF (the Twin Cessna owner's organization) and had attended some conventions. So this isn't your expected new, just upgraded, etc. kind of NTSB report like we see so often. Reports indicate that the pilot was good about using a FRAT on his flying, something that TTCF pushes.

Listening to the tapes and looking at the track, it seems that everything was fine until he got on the ILS, and seemingly got into a layer of IMC. I didn't hear anything indicating behind the airplane until that point. So, that leaves me thinking a few things:

1) He'd not set up/slowed down properly far in advance (340s are significantly slicker than the 414/421 so this is sometimes an issue) which snowballed things

2) He had an autopilot or other instrument failure in IMC that he then had issues recovering from

3) An aircraft control surface mechanical issue

4) A medical issue

My opinion is that 2 and 3 are the most likely. While the engines sounded fine in the doorbell cam audio that I listened to, one issue that came to light a few years ago was the elevator trim tab arm coming off, usually from the bolt coming loose or else from the screws holding the mounting plate to the trim tab itself. There was a lot of attention brought to this when I was flying the 414 and we addressed it, although I can't remember if it got to the point of an AD or was just publicized within the community as a problem. As someone who was a member, he should have known about it and gotten it addressed, but that doesn't mean that 1) it occurred 2) it was done correctly.

It's unlikely that we'll ever know the true root cause as I doubt there will be much from the wreckage for the NTSB to look at. Certainly it's possible that the pilot had been just skating by at institutions or instructors that promoted "cooperate, graduate" with training, and we all know those are out there (unfortunately). Who knows how proficient this pilot ever was at flying in IMC. But usually there's a chain involved and multiple issues, so even if he wasn't particularly proficient at IMC, so long as everything was working it was probably ok. So then an instrument failure occurs and then that becomes an issue.

If a trim tab failure occurs, that's very difficult to recover from and you can't blame any pilot for that one. That's just "It's your time."
 
Ted - I'm sure all of that is possible but regarding #3, he has several ATC comms while incapable of climbing/following ATC instructions and he never mentions any issues or seems to have the kind of strain in his voice you would expect if he was fighting the airplane with all his strength. This to me suggests a cognitive vs. physical fight with the airplane where he is mentally struggling with the airplane (which could be reasons #1, 2 or 4 or something else entirely) but still able to handle comms without too much obvious strain.
 
RudyP said:
Ted - I'm sure all of that is possible but regarding #3, he has several ATC comms while incapable of climbing/following ATC instructions and he never mentions any issues or seems to have the kind of strain in his voice you would expect if he was fighting the airplane with all his strength. This to me suggests a cognitive vs. physical fight with the airplane where he is mentally struggling with the airplane (which could be reasons #1, 2 or 4 or something else entirely) but still able to handle comms without too much obvious strain.
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I agree. I should've clarified that based on the audio, #3 does seem to be less probable. I heard strain in his voice but it was more mental not physical.

My guess is #2.
 
This is going to sound mean, but how much actual is this guy likely to have experienced? Flying around in the Southwest, maybe not a lot. For all you know this was his first foray into actual IMC. It can be a real eye opener.
 
steingar said:
This is going to sound mean, but how much actual is this guy likely to have experienced? Flying around in the Southwest, maybe not a lot. For all you know this was his first foray into actual IMC. It can be a real eye opener.
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He had about 900 hours in the plane in 2019 apparently, and flew it regularly. I would doubt it was his first time in actual IMC. However, supposedly it was a fairly thin layer. It is certainly possible that it had a disorienting effect on him that he hadn't dealt with before. A lot of times the smaller wispy clouds that leave a lot of VMC exposed can be more disorienting than pure hard IMC. It's happened to me - I remember one flight in the MU-2 at FL200 when I got the leans hard (and hadn't gotten them in years at all) because the way the clouds were right there made it look like I was banked over 90 degrees. Obviously I didn't crash the plane, I didn't even have any issues controlling it. But I did get the leans.
 
Bender Aviation said:
I would edit the title if I could, I don't consider a Cessna 340 a small plane, but maybe some in the media do.
A note about San Diego today, the winds are unusually strong and gusty.
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It is quite a small plane. Look at its dimensions, only six seats, under 6K gross. Small.
 
Ted said:
He had about 900 hours in the plane in 2019 apparently, and flew it regularly. I would doubt it was his first time in actual IMC. However, supposedly it was a fairly thin layer. It is certainly possible that it had a disorienting effect on him that he hadn't dealt with before. A lot of times the smaller wispy clouds that leave a lot of VMC exposed can be more disorienting than pure hard IMC. It's happened to me - I remember one flight in the MU-2 at FL200 when I got the leans hard (and hadn't gotten them in years at all) because the way the clouds were right there made it look like I was banked over 90 degrees. Obviously I didn't crash the plane, I didn't even have any issues controlling it. But I did get the leans.
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The one picture being posted shows a steam gauge panel, as well. To me, at least, a nice piece of glass displaying the horizon is better to reconcile attitude. Two or three makes it even better.
 
Ted said:
1) He'd not set up/slowed down properly far in advance (340s are significantly slicker than the 414/421 so this is sometimes an issue) which snowballed things

2) He had an autopilot or other instrument failure in IMC that he then had issues recovering from

3) An aircraft control surface mechanical issue

4) A medical issue
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Good analysis, and hits close to home.

Just wild speculation, but I think it is a combo of the first three. Got behind the aircraft. Got confused by the CTL instruction, and put his head down and started pushing buttons which caused him to completely lose SA. Started fighting the autopilot and broke the airplane when he figured it out.
 
James_Dean said:
Good analysis, and hits close to home.
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Thank you, and yes, it does.

Just wild speculation, but I think it is a combo of the first three. Got behind the aircraft. Got confused by the CTL instruction, and put his head down and started pushing buttons which caused him to completely lose SA. Started fighting the autopilot and broke the airplane when he figured it out.
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Very possible. Aviation accidents are usually a chain of multiple issues.
 
One wonders how much actual you get between Yuma and San Diego even if he flew it weekly.
 
He’d flown this exact same route five times in the last several months. Looks like IFR w/ vectors to final to an ILS 28R just about every time. I’m not sure what the actual meteorological conditions were in the prior flights, though. One additional factor seemingly not present in the other flights: the circle-to-land to 23 - all others were straight-in to 28R. Listen to the audio as well - seems to be a lot of workload and some confusion about the CTL as he’s getting to the localizer.

Perhaps trying to pull up a plate with the circling minimums? Maybe trying to visualize what kind of a pattern he’s going to fly, having never done it?
 
I put this together based on the Flightaware data and the reported impact location. Elevations come from google earth.

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flyingron said:
One wonders how much actual you get between Yuma and San Diego even if he flew it weekly.
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We don't get the same IFR conditions that places in the northeast might experience but there's a near daily layer.. tops typically 2K-3K with bases anywhere from 500 to 1,500

Burns off by 10-11 most days, but if someone is flying here often they'll get some IMC, at least in the very beginning and end of their flight

Which, if you've been cruising in VMC on autopilot your whole flight then suddenly you're in a layer with an unfamiliar approach instruction all it takes is a few seconds to get behind the plane. AP is in the wrong mode, go through the localizer, now you're stressed because ATC is getting annoyed.. things can unfold fast unfortunately for someone unprepared
 
I used to commute into MYF in a Bonanza. You'd get a few windy/woolly days, and yesterday seemed like it was one of those -- but man the clouds were only a few thou thick as others mentioned, it's nowhere NEAR "hard IFR"

The only situation where a 340 can't climb when asked to over the span of **3-5 minutes** is heavy and ignored ice, and the doorbell cameras showed us it was a thin and broken layer.

I honestly hope this is found to be a medical issue so I can eat my angry words.
 
schmookeeg said:
I used to commute into MYF in a Bonanza. You'd get a few windy/woolly days, and yesterday seemed like it was one of those -- but man the clouds were only a few thou thick as others mentioned, it's nowhere NEAR "hard IFR"

The only situation where a 340 can't climb when asked to over the span of **3-5 minutes** is heavy and ignored ice, and the doorbell cameras showed us it was a thin and broken layer.

I honestly hope this is found to be a medical issue so I can eat my angry words.
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He came in pretty fast and that explosion, not sure there would be enough left to determine? Never know what they can do these days though.
 
First impression from the audio is that a likely scenario is that the AP might have been misconfigured, resulting in the aircraft not capturing the localizer. Regardless of the cause of the error in capturing the localizer, the ensuing control chaos is more difficult to understand. Did the pilot continue fighting with the unexpected response of the navigation box and/or autopilot? Did he disconnect the tech and hand-fly? And was the pilot current and competent enough to hand-fly the aircraft? Technically, it shouldn't have been too difficult to disconnect the AP and initiate a climb to a safe altitude as per ATC instructions, and sort out the issues once the immediate terrain conflicts are resolved. Medical incapacitation, or a physical control failure is possible, although less likely. Those latter issues might have been expected to manifest in some form earlier than the approach phase of the flight. But we will likely never know what happened.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
It is quite a small plane. Look at its dimensions, only six seats, under 6K gross. Small.
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The Cessna 340 qualifies for BasicMed. While it's probably the largest plane that makes the cutoff, I think it's fair to call a plane that qualifies for BasicMed "small." Especially when reporting in the media, to an audience who already think that a regional jet is "small" and would really panic if they heard that a "medium" airplane had crashed into a neighborhood.

It does seem like an autopilot misconfiguration or malfunction could have been a factor here. The original Cessna Nav-o-Matic autopilots were awesome in 1975. If that's what he had, it could have picked that day to have a pitch control or other problem or he could have had it set up for the ILS he had flown before and struggled to reconfigure it for circling.

I agree with @Ted. The audio sounds like he was getting behind the plane toward the end, but not cognitively impaired early on. The guy had an accent and his somewhat mumbled calls qualify for the "minor aviation pet peeves" thread but they're probably about average for a foreign-born M.D. pilot. I've heard many airline pilots who were no better on the radio.

Crashes like this always make me think: "What are the possible causes and what am I doing to mitigate those risks in my own flying?"
 
chemgeek said:
First impression from the audio is that a likely scenario is that the AP might have been misconfigured, resulting in the aircraft not capturing the localizer. Regardless of the cause of the error in capturing the localizer, the ensuing control chaos is more difficult to understand. Did the pilot continue fighting with the unexpected response of the navigation box and/or autopilot? Did he disconnect the tech and hand-fly? And was the pilot current and competent enough to hand-fly the aircraft? Technically, it shouldn't have been too difficult to disconnect the AP and initiate a climb to a safe altitude as per ATC instructions, and sort out the issues once the immediate terrain conflicts are resolved. Medical incapacitation, or a physical control failure is possible, although less likely. Those latter issues might have been expected to manifest in some form earlier than the approach phase of the flight. But we will likely never know what happened.
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Looking at his previous tracks, most segments were laser-straight, so I’d presume AP was used heavily. NTTAWWT, but the sudden switch to hand-flying, the increased workload, and the competency required could be a factor. We’ve seen other twin-Cessna YouTube personalities struggle with automation, resulting in a loss of SA and (fairly poorly) hand-flown approaches.
 
iamtheari said:
Crashes like this always make me think: "What are the possible causes and what am I doing to mitigate those risks in my own flying?"
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Pretty sure that’s why we’re all here talking about this, speculating about contributing factors years before the NTSB’s report. Chair-flying this and asking yourself “what would I do” is a valuable mental exercise, regardless of whether our presumptions are correct or not.
 
iamtheari said:
The original Cessna Nav-o-Matic autopilots were awesome in 1975. If that's what he had, it could have picked that day to have a pitch control or other problem
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That's why when letting old legacy equipment fly an approach, one should have their thumb on the big red button and be ready (and have the currency and skills) to push the button and take over should George decide to take a vacay day.
 
asicer said:
Isn't the west coast known for almost year-round coastal stratus in the mornings?
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Here on Monterey Bay, it's mostly a summertime thing--locally called the "marine layer". Usually tops out at about 1500 feet and almost never goes all the way to the ground. It never goes far inland, so if a pilot has get-home-itis he can normally fly underneath it to the airport. Obviously not advisable, of course.

Tim
 
I find it interesting that so many here are looking for the "reason", ie, bad AH, AP, pilot incapacitation or another item. Why do we always look for the excuse, and not just recognize the common root cause of 80% of the accidents are simply pilot error. Listening to the audio, it would seem the pilot was in over his head, and those conditions were not bad at all.
 
MalibuJim said:
I find it interesting that so many here are looking for the "reason", ie, bad AH, AP, pilot incapacitation or another item. Why do we always look for the excuse, and not just recognize the common root cause of 80% of the accidents are simply pilot error.
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Because it’s nice to know what triggered the pilot error, so we don’t make the same error(s).
 
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