Plane crash on FL freeway

MauiJim said:
So if nothing makes sense, we need to think out of the box. What are we overlooking?
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No, "we" don't need to do anything. There are accident investigators who are more experienced than us and have access to information that we don't have. "We" don't have to do anything but wait until the final report comes out.

There were 3 other passengers onboard that, for all practical purposes, were strangers to the crew. Could it be as simple as a suicidal passenger?
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In the words of Ronald Reagan, "there you go again". One of those 3 people was the flight attendant. Who was well known to the crew and company.

All that happens in this mishap forum is speculation. Some of it is educated, some is beyond imagination. Personally, I leave the latter to Dan Gryder. :rofl:
 
donjohnston said:
…. Personally, I leave the latter to Dan Gryder. :rofl:
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Yep. I ain’t saying squat until he makes a pronouncement.
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And somebody posts it on POA, and then not until somebody puts to text what DG says since I don’t watch his channel.

Then, I’ll likely just chuckle at his conclusion and carry on until the pre-lim comes out.
 
Thanks.75S still closed.
R.R. Also said trust but verify.
NTSB is the best.
 
MauiJim said:
Cockpits are completely accessible. One might even be invited in to ooh and ahh at the wonders that we all take for granted. Kneeling on the floor behind the pedestal, how quickly could I grab the power levers or hit both capped engine fire switches? You know the answer. In this case the person in question would be a murderer. I hope to God I’m wrong.
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Stop the stupid. Invite people into the cockpit to kneel on the floor on approach? Can’t imagine a company or crew that would allow it and that includes the FA.
 
Zero to sixty is the norm here.

My take on the typical POA accident thread:

Post 1: bugsmasher123 down east smalltown

Post 2: link

Post 4: early reports say the front fell off

Post 5: there is an ad for loose front

Post 6: that's stupid. was probably the back detaching right where it attaches to the front

Post 6: has anyone considered carb ice? Also you mother dresses you funny

Post 7: the carb is on the front; can't ice if it's not attached, can it you Mesopotamian blob of snot

Post 8: why is nobody considering sabotage? also, yo mamma.

Post 9: I have seven million hours in that type; flew it through two world wars and a superbowl. The fronts are attached good, and you can both meet me with pistols at dawn. It was obviously mental illness.

Post 10: Mental illness is made up, just like birds.

Thread locked.
 
donjohnston said:
"We" don't have to do anything but wait until the final report comes out.
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Sorry, but this attitude of "wait for the final report" needs to go away.
Sometimes it takes 2+ years for the final to come out. Discussing the accident (even if it involves a certain degree of speculation) can be an eye opener and prevent a similar mishap. Or it can trigger a thought process that could prevent a completely unrelated accident.
 
This thread became as drama filled as the nightly news on a major network. Or a high school scuffle because someone “dissed” another.

Regarding the Pro Card. I wouldn’t use that to prove one’s knowledge or skill level, because it’s a poorly implemented trophy.

Most likely this will be an inadvertent shutdown event and it will get discovered in the CVR and FDR review. If so, I’m guessing there will be some revelations in the preliminary report. If it turns out to be something else (excluding the unlikely “downing” speculations) it will come with the final report. That long two years or so.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Discussing the accident (even if it involves a certain degree of speculation) can be an eye opener and prevent a similar mishap.
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Not really in my experience. And if the NTSB does find somethings flight safety related during the course of the investigation, any related necessary corrective actions will be issued well before the factual or final reports are released. Usually these types of speculative discussions get so far off the reservation they offer zero constructive input. And while some discussion on these type of events is healthy to a point, most end up being a red herring fishing tournament similar to this one.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Sorry, but this attitude of "wait for the final report" needs to go away.
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So “we” need to just do something instead? Without benefit of fact?

Ok; I’ll do my part and continue to not fly twin turbine aircraft. If I just do that, these things won’t have to happen anymore.

Wait. Maybe it’s my lack of flying twin turbine aircraft that actually caused a mishap; I’ll get right on fixing that instead.
 
..this thread is wild. What does Occam's razor tell us? Human error is the leading cause of accidents. Not suicidal passengers who then run from the plane after somehow managing a dual engine failure yet manage to glide the plane down to a relatively okay landing

Someone on blancolirio's channel mentioned the fuel pedestal (and it was mentioned way up thread here too) and a potential to inadvertently shut fuel to the engines.. which apparently has happened before though the crew was able to relight previously (Skywest?). Hopefully the investigation team can figure this out and give us some answers. As of now, turning base to final, configuring the plane for final landing checks, etc., it seems at least plausible that someone flipped some wrong switches..
 
AV8R_87 said:
Sorry, but this attitude of "wait for the final report" needs to go away.
Sometimes it takes 2+ years for the final to come out. Discussing the accident (even if it involves a certain degree of speculation) can be an eye opener and prevent a similar mishap. Or it can trigger a thought process that could prevent a completely unrelated accident.
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As much as I hate waiting for years, and agree in principal that there's value in discussing an accident, I acknowledge a huge knee jerk risk in making conclusions before everything has been vetted.. We have many examples of recent history we can look at where we acted prematurely without all the evidence. We love aviation here and probably know more than the average lay person, but we're not professional career accident investigators and I'd rather wait the time to know what happened
 
I always value having the discussion, but we aren't going to solve anything here.

The only facts we know, the plane flew from OSU to Naples uneventfully. The only communication of a problem was immediately before the accident when the pilot calmly reported losing both engines. The aircraft landed on a busy interstate short of the airport, struck a truck, veered into the noise barrier, then burst into flames.

Anything beyond that is speculation. Some of it may be healthy, did they run out of fuel, inadvertent shut down, etc., items that are possible. Suicide, aliens, drones, sharks with laser beams, all wild speculation that are baseless.

Let the investigators that are actually on scene and looking at the facts figure it out. Even the preliminary report may shed some light, as it did in the recent med helicopter crash in Oklahoma.
 
Discussion on an internet forum is not going to help solve anything. But neither is it going to hurt. The investigation will find what it finds either way. In the meantime, no harm in a bunch of aviation enthusiasts educating each other and engaging in lively discussion online. If that discussion sometimes veers into wild speculation, well that's the internet for you.
 
Hengelo said:
Zero to sixty is the norm here.

My take on the typical POA accident thread:

Post 1: bugsmasher123 down east smalltown

Post 2: link

Post 4: early reports say the front fell off

Post 5: there is an ad for loose front

Post 6: that's stupid. was probably the back detaching right where it attaches to the front

Post 6: has anyone considered carb ice? Also you mother dresses you funny

Post 7: the carb is on the front; can't ice if it's not attached, can it you Mesopotamian blob of snot

Post 8: why is nobody considering sabotage? also, yo mamma.

Post 9: I have seven million hours in that type; flew it through two world wars and a superbowl. The fronts are attached good, and you can both meet me with pistols at dawn. It was obviously mental illness.

Post 10: Mental illness is made up, just like birds.

Thread locked.
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Ed Haywood said:
This one went to the kiddie table quickly.

IMO there should be some kind of online dueling room for forum users whose honor has been affronted. A digital version of slapping each other with a dress glove and meeting for a 1v1 FPS contest. Or maybe an aviation trivia shootout.
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Reminds me of an old Craigslist post:

Penis Measuring​



A friend of mine and I have been having a long-standing argument about whose penis is larger. We've tried having our girlfriends confirm to the other the exact size, but neither one of us buy it. I don't want to see his penis and he doesn't want to see mine. I don't want my girlfriend looking at his penis and he doesn't was his looking at mine.

So... We just need a girl to look at both of our penises (individually) and then to both of our faces say which one is bigger. We can't pay much. $50.

  • Location: Vancouver
  • it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
  • Compensation: $50
 
TCABM said:
I didn’t think they tolerated speculation over there. Or is that policy limited to Beech mishaps?
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Beechtalk is nothing but speculation these days and the less information publicly available the more wild and ridiculous possibilities get discussed.

The thread on BT is currently at 14 pages of nonsense.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Beechtalk is nothing but speculation these days and the less information publicly available the more wild and ridiculous possibilities get discussed.

The thread on BT is currently at 14 pages of nonsense.
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Wow. I haven’t been by there since the initial RV skin doom and gloom started.
 
MauiJim said:
It’s not likely these pax were vetted before they boarded. Maybe not even asked for a DI to name match. Just saying I hope the NTSB has asked the Federal Marshals to keep an eye on all 3 of them until the CVR and FDR analysis clears them. Hope to God I’m wrong.
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The day after tomorrow I am going to be a passenger on a Challenger flight. I had to provide a photocopy of my passport along with my weight, address, phone number, etc. Pretty easy for the company to check me out.

There will be two other passengers, old friends of mine. I have no concerns about either one being suicidal. It will be one of the rare charter flights where everyone on board will be pilots.
 
Is a 604 a "Prist" plane or does it have the heated fuel?

As for the DEF theories, OSU is a VERY busy bizjet airport, someone else would've had issues by if OSU was handing out contaminated fuel.
 
MauiJim said:
All the possibilities have been covered here except one. I’m retired from the corporate aviation field (30+ years + 10 years below wing with a major CRJ operator but not a pilot) Call me crazy but there is no real security that would prevent a pax from boarding this A/C and taking it down. There was nothing that would keep anyone out of the cockpit. No airliner style door. Reaching the throttles, fuel cutoff and engine fire buttons is very easy from the jump seat. It’s not likely these pax were vetted before they boarded. Maybe not even asked for a DI to name match. Just saying I hope the NTSB has asked the Federal Marshals to keep an eye on all 3 of them until the CVR and FDR analysis clears them. Hope to God I’m wrong.
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All passengers on airplanes that are operated Pt135 above 12,500lbs are vetted by the TSA and required to provide photo identification prior to boarding. I’ve asked Jay Leno and Jennifer Lawrence (along with a whole host of household names) for ID. If you don’t show an ID, you don’t fly. Period. The TSA regulations are very black & white on this.
 
DavidWhite said:
All passengers on airplanes that are operated Pt135 above 12,500lbs are vetted by the TSA and required to provide photo identification prior to boarding. I’ve asked Jay Leno and Jennifer Lawrence (along with a whole host of household names) for ID. If you don’t show an ID, you don’t fly. Period. The TSA regulations are very black & white on this.
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Many, many holes in the vetting process.

I’ve seen guys vetted as their nickname, yet their ID doesn’t show that, or vice versa.

I’ve also seen some less than adequate ID’s. (Fishing license??).

135 operators (not all, but many) will do whatever it takes to make the flight happen.
 
MauleSkinner said:
so when they give their fuel order, they have to say they’re Prist off?
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To the best of my knowledge, prist never hurts. Could be wrong on that.
Also have never flown a jet (pic typed in 5) that didn’t have some sort of fuel heating.
 
Kritchlow said:
To the best of my knowledge, prist never hurts. Could be wrong on that.
Also have never flown a jet (pic typed in 5) that didn’t have some sort of fuel heating.
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Prist isn’t required, but it is recommended once a week for its biocide properties on the jet that I fly.

I don’t think there’s any downsides to running it….lots of places sell premix and nothing else.
 
DavidWhite said:
Prist isn’t required, but it is recommended once a week for its biocide properties on the jet that I fly.

I don’t think there’s any downsides to running it….lots of places sell premix and nothing else.
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Exactly.
 
I also think inadvertent fuel shutoff makes the most sense. I really do enjoy the speculation and for someone like me that has only limited experience, learning how these systems work is very interesting. I just like furthering my aviation knowledge and I prefer these discussions over the FB ones.
 
TrueCourse said:
This thread became as drama filled as the nightly news on a major network. Or a high school scuffle because someone “dissed” another.

Regarding the Pro Card. I wouldn’t use that to prove one’s knowledge or skill level, because it’s a poorly implemented trophy.

Most likely this will be an inadvertent shutdown event and it will get discovered in the CVR and FDR review. If so, I’m guessing there will be some revelations in the preliminary report. If it turns out to be something else (excluding the unlikely “downing” speculations) it will come with the final report. That long two years or so.
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I agree that the Pro Card doesn't prove one's "knowledge or skill level." But I'll take it one step
further and say that it's difficult to prove one's knowledge or skill level being an airline,
charter pilot, cargo pilot, etc. I guess that's unless you just don't screw up and just keep on
moving up the ladder of seniority - but that doesn't show much ingenuity, imagination, raw
brainpower, and the dogged determination that it takes to differentiate yourself in the business
world where the sky can literally be the limit for people like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk,
etc. - but there's many, many lesser examples than that - those are just at the extremely high-end.

And having a "farmer's mentality" helps as well - according to Ryanair's CEO (who runs one
of the most successful airlines in the world - just check the stock price) you're better
off being an accountant and having "farmer's mentality than a pilot to run an airline.
Actually, in his mind, pilots have an "easy job."

<<He believes that accountants are by far the best to run an airline, even if having “no personality”,
but of far more personal influence was the fact that he grew up on a farm.

“Farmers have to survive the winter. They don’t waste money; they are very conscious of buying when
everybody is selling and selling when everybody is buying” he told me. He has an aversion for debt and
attributes his drive at Ryanair to “being of farming stock, not wasting money so you can survive through
the winter until spring comes.” >>

www.forbes.com

Ryanair’s Michael O’Leary: Firing On All Cylinders

A key influence for Ryanair's Michael O'Leary was the fact that he grew up on a farm. “Farmers have to survive the winter. They don’t waste money; they are very conscious of buying when everybody is selling and selling when everybody is buying”
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com

And, according to O'Leary, even though pilots are highly trained professionals (which I definitely agree with),
they're not doing a "hard job." I also think that he should have added in there that pilots need good judgment.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10155077044316158

PS: I agree with the farmer's mentality 100% - as an entrepreneur,
it's helped a lot to get me get through several tough recessions
over the years.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Worth asking whether a gear up landing might have been more survivable.
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I would guess the gear were already down for landing, and in the short time available they didn't have time to consider changing that. With the loss of both engines they would also lose hydraulic pressure and may not have been able to raise them.
 
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