Plane crash on FL freeway

[CaptainDoug]

Maybe from the vehicle that was hit...

Maybe from both the vehicle and the unusable fuel in the Challenger -
that could be up to about 40 gallons combined.

Sorry guys but I'm back to speculation mode.

A Dodge Journey carries about a similar amount of fuel
that a Challenger 600 has in unusable fuel ~ 20 gallons.
We can assume that there was the full amount of unusable
fuel still in the Challenger ~18 - 19 gallons - check page 12
of 13 on the PDF:

https://avia.gov.ua/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/8ac37a57-6e83-4b1d-b775-df563521ee20_compressed.pdf

Assuming this Dodge Journey was full of fuel (probably not) we
can see that it still burns a lot. Don't forget how many things
catch fire after the gasoline / jet fuel ignites - seats
and everything else.

Car erupts in flames after driver hits deer on Minnesota highway

Neither the driver nor her dog were injured, but the deer did not survive, according to the local sheriff’s office.

fox59.com

Now Hop-a-Jet was based in Fort Lauderdale as shown here:

<<According to the FlightAware aircraft tracker, the plane was operated by Hop-a-Jet Worldwide Charter based in Fort Lauderdale,
Florida. The aircraft had been scheduled to fly back to Fort Lauderdale on Friday afternoon>>

'We've lost both engines,' pilot said before private jet crashed onto Florida interstate, killing 2

A pilot and co-pilot were identified as the two killed in a fiery plane crash on a Florida highway, law enforcement officials said Saturday afternoon. The Collier County Sheriff’s Office identified Edward Daniel Murphy, a 50-year-old pilot and co-pilot Ian Frederick Hofmann, 65, as the...

www.yahoo.com

Now I'm going out on a speculative limb by guessing that Hop-a-Jet could have been
cutting fuel quantities close to maximize profit. For example, just carry what you
need to get to APF and add the minimum to get to FXE or FLL - whichever one it is.
And there, Hop-a-Jet loads up on their cheap fuel for the next flight.

I will reiterate, this is all speculative. But in the razor-thin margin jet charter business,
this could have happened. There could have been a screw up on what fuel needed to
be on board to get to APF from Ohio. Even though it might have been getting really
low, the pilots could have said we'll make it anyway.

Don't shoot the speculator - but I'm just still not ruling out fuel exhaustion.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Maybe from the vehicle that was hit...

Pretty rare to see vehicle fires, the tanks are very well protected.

 

[Hengelo]

Hard to imagine there will be much left to investigate beyond a pile of ash & bones.

 

[Bell206]

The challenge for the NTSB is that things like this happen so rarely in 2 turbine engine, 2 pro-pilot planes in good weather is that every possibility is very unlikely and finding the specific cause is hard and tedious work.

Or they get lucky and the CVR discussions and the FDR data give them the "smoking gun." Its happened before. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen often enough. But a tough job no matter the "luck."

 

[hindsight2020]

The engines appear fire-undamaged enough to be able to recover bird debris forensics, unless the fire department didn't get to it quick enough. They can tell trashed compressor section well beyond the first stage as long as the pod wasn't consumed completely by fire. They have two engines so given the dual failure, if it's FOD, there's at least one engine that could be mined for it.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Not a lot of migratory bird flocks in FL. I flew from Tampa to Sebring today and saw maybe 3 birds. A lot of sea birds on the coast, but those are down near the surface.

Also, human nature would be to mention the bird strike in the radio call.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Maybe from both the vehicle and the unusable fuel in the Challenger -
that could be up to about 40 gallons combined.

Sorry guys but I'm back to speculation mode.

A Dodge Journey carries about a similar amount of fuel
that a Challenger 600 has in unusable fuel ~ 20 gallons.
We can assume that there was the full amount of unusable
fuel still in the Challenger ~18 - 19 gallons - check page 12
of 13 on the PDF:

https://avia.gov.ua/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/8ac37a57-6e83-4b1d-b775-df563521ee20_compressed.pdf

Assuming this Dodge Journey was full of fuel (probably not) we
can see that it still burns a lot. Don't forget how many things
catch fire after the gasoline / jet fuel ignites - seats
and everything else.

Car erupts in flames after driver hits deer on Minnesota highway

Neither the driver nor her dog were injured, but the deer did not survive, according to the local sheriff’s office.

fox59.com

Now Hop-a-Jet was based in Fort Lauderdale as shown here:

<<According to the FlightAware aircraft tracker, the plane was operated by Hop-a-Jet Worldwide Charter based in Fort Lauderdale,
Florida. The aircraft had been scheduled to fly back to Fort Lauderdale on Friday afternoon>>

'We've lost both engines,' pilot said before private jet crashed onto Florida interstate, killing 2

A pilot and co-pilot were identified as the two killed in a fiery plane crash on a Florida highway, law enforcement officials said Saturday afternoon. The Collier County Sheriff’s Office identified Edward Daniel Murphy, a 50-year-old pilot and co-pilot Ian Frederick Hofmann, 65, as the...

www.yahoo.com

Now I'm going out on a speculative limb by guessing that Hop-a-Jet could have been
cutting fuel quantities close to maximize profit. For example, just carry what you
need to get to APF and add the minimum to get to FXE or FLL - whichever one it is.
And there, Hop-a-Jet loads up on their cheap fuel for the next flight.

I will reiterate, this is all speculative. But in the razor-thin margin jet charter business,
this could have happened. There could have been a screw up on what fuel needed to
be on board to get to APF from Ohio. Even though it might have been getting really
low, the pilots could have said we'll make it anyway.

Don't shoot the speculator - but I'm just still not ruling out fuel exhaustion.

What about the 45 minute reserve? They hadn’t landed yet. Your theory of an operator running a jet around on fumes is way outside the envelope.


Hop A Jet has been around a long time, and is not some recent start up.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Not a lot of migratory bird flocks in FL. I flew from Tampa to Sebring today and saw maybe 3 birds. A lot of sea birds on the coast, but those are down near the surface.

Also, human nature would be to mention the bird strike in the radio call.

Not if your hands are full and you are working a double flame out.

 

[Ted]

Not if your hands are full and you are working a double flame out.

Exactly. In that situation where they were so low when this happened and configured for landing, calling ATC at all isn’t helping you, much less giving them details.

Different situation from Sully entirely. I wouldn’t rule birds in or out based on the tapes.

 

[eman1200]

Exactly. In that situation where they were so low when this happened and configured for landing, calling ATC at all isn’t helping you, much less giving them details.

Different situation from Sully entirely. I wouldn’t rule birds in or out based on the tapes.

Except for the fact that they did call out to ATC.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Except for the fact that they did call out to ATC.

Very short message. Did you expect them to go into details being that low and a dual engine flame out?

 

[eman1200]

Very short message. Did you expect them to go into details being that low and a dual engine flame out?

I didn’t expect a darn thing out of them.

 

[CaptainDoug]

What about the 45 minute reserve? They hadn’t landed yet. Your theory of an operator running a jet around on fumes is way outside the envelope.


Hop A Jet has been around a long time, and is not some recent start up.

You're probably right. And I certainly wouldn't mean to denigrate pilots that
I don't even know - or don't know anything about them. Secondly, these
pilots should be considered heroes for saving the three passengers
lives - as long as they didn't do anything to get into that position to
begin with. And, even if they did, they're still heroes to the
uninjured passengers.

But there's part of me that does not want this to be a bird strike. And that's
because I don't want me or my passengers to feel vulnerable to those damn
birds. Yes, taking out one engine isn't that bad - but both?! And yes, it happened
to Capt Sully 15 years ago - I'd just prefer for it not to happen again. As I said
before, I'm flying in that area all the time.

Getting back to my "hopeful" theory that there was some type of human error
involved. There was nothing said from either pilot about a bird strikes. One
would think that's the first thing they would say - that's what Sully said.

So maybe Hop-a-Jet 823 didn't even put on any fuel at Ohio State? Maybe
the fuel burn wasn't exactly as anticipated and they ate too much into their
VFR reserves going to APF? We'll have those answers soon enough.

Here's yesterday's flights:

HPJ823 Hop-a-Jet Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

Track Hop-a-Jet #823 flight from Ohio State University to Naples Muni

www.flightaware.com

 

[3393RP]

The impact with the sound barrier wall breached the right wing tanks and turned the cockpit into the wall, crushing it and ejecting the pilots. That removed half the fuel on board by fire along the wall. Compare the unburned right wing to the left. You can also see the MLG tracks, and, unfortunately, the pilots' bodies in this photo. The truck they hit is on the median.

The crew did a damned good job of playing the cards they were dealt. Putting down a bizjet on a highway involves speeds that usually result in fragmentation of the aircraft and death of the occupants. That the passengers survived shows those two professionals gave it their all.

Rest easy, guys.

 

[Bell206]

I'd just prefer for it not to happen again.

So getting back to my "hopeful" theory

FWIW: Neither does anybody else. However, bird strikes have been increasing with regularity. For example, 2022 saw over 16k reported strikes with 600+ causing damage. And just last month, birds took out a helicopter and 3 people. Perhaps get caught up with latest guidance to avoid bird strikes vs trying to wish them away? Here's one doc I had handy but there are others for different aircraft: SAIB AIR-21-17R1

 

[Jim Rosenow]

Clearly anecdotal, but my wife, who has been shuttling owners who have house in Florida for over 35 years, came home for the first time ever last week shaken by flying thru a big flock of seagulls in the Citation. She said it was sheer luck there was no strike..... FWIW....

Jim

 

[3393RP]

After viewing this, it appears the fire was fed by right wing fuel pouring from the wing root, torn open from the impact with the sound barrier wall.

 

[Half Fast]

Not a lot of migratory bird flocks in FL.

I dunno about that. The Haines City / Winter Haven area is covered with enormous flocks of snowbirds right now.

 

[CaptainDoug]

FWIW: Neither does anybody else. However, bird strikes have been increasing with regularity. For example, 2022 saw over 16k reported strikes with 600+ causing damage. And just last month, birds took out a helicopter and 3 people. Perhaps get caught up with latest guidance to avoid bird strikes vs trying to wish them away? Here's one doc I had handy but there are others for different aircraft: SAIB AIR-21-17R1

Thanks for the info.

I'm well aware of bird strikes - I've hit them in the Baron, even at night,
but luckily, there wasn't any major damage. I no longer fly the Baron
because I fly something faster. I fly something single-pilot that
the insurance companies / FAA won't let you fly solo unless you've
been around the block a few times.

I've seen Grackles (and other birds) fly in swarms when driving to South
Florida airports. I've even seen them when pre-flighting and I think of
them as 'enemies.'

Taking out one engine is OK - but taking out both really, really sucks.
But taking out both engines is very rare - partially due to testing:

And don't forget, Captain Sully hit a flock of Canadian Geese - those
things are huge.

Why wouldn't these pilots inform APF tower about bird strikes? At
least one pilot should have been looking outside even if the pilot
not flying was reading the checklist. I'm just thinking that if I was
flying, I'm pretty sure I'd say something similar to what Sully said -
"hit birds, lost power in both engines and declaring an emergency."

 

[Half Fast]

They did the best they could with an impossible situation, but I wonder whether the outcome might have been better had they been able to reach the median or land with the traffic flow. It looks like they landed into oncoming traffic, but they might not have had a choice.

 

[Ted]

They did the best they could with an impossible situation, but I wonder whether the outcome might have been better had they been able to reach the median or land with the traffic flow. It looks like they landed into oncoming traffic, but they might not have had a choice.

They landed with traffic flow. The pictures are after the plane spun around from the wing tip hitting something.

 

[Bell206]

I'm just thinking that if I was
flying, I'm pretty sure I'd say something similar to what Sully said

Maybe or maybe not. I can think of 3 fatal bird strikes where not a peep was said plus the one mentioned above. Birds don't always hit only the engines.

 

[Doc Holliday]

So maybe Hop-a-Jet 823 didn't even put on any fuel at Ohio State? Maybe
the fuel burn wasn't exactly as anticipated and they ate too much into their
VFR reserves going to APF? We'll have those answers soon enough.

Here's yesterday's flights:

HPJ823 Hop-a-Jet Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

Track Hop-a-Jet #823 flight from Ohio State University to Naples Muni

www.flightaware.com

First of all, why would they use VFR reserves? They were flying IFR.

Second, they knew the required fuel burn and winds aloft. The FMS does a good job of keeping the fuel burn up to date and flagging if the destination fuel is less than required (considering IFR reserves)

Let the NTSB investigate.

 

[Capngrog]

I haven't heard anything yet from my friends who may have some inside information on this. The FAA issued a statement to the effect that the NTSB would be doing the investigation, but, other than that, nothing "official" yet. Of course, my initial thought on a simultaneous engine shut down was fuel exhaustion/starvation, but those things rarely involve two or more engines shutting down exactly at the same time ... usually, due to plumbing details etc., fuel starvation engine failures occur almost always "first one, then the other". Such failures can be within seconds of each other, but an exactly simultaneous shut down leads me to expect operation of some sort of engine shutdown controls. By the way, this opinion is based on my almost total ignorance of Canadair Challenger controls. Years ago, I was given a tour of the interior and cockpit of a Challenger that was parked on the GA ramp ( Signature? ) on the north side of MIA, but other than trying to not drool on everything, I remember pretty much nothing. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express the night before. It would be interesting to see if the throttles were located such that movement of other controls, the flap lever for example, could nudge the throttles to the cutoff position ... or sumthin'.

Regardless, the butcher's bill on this one could have been much higher, but that was prevented by the quick actions of the flight crew. May they Rest In Peace.

 

[CaptainDoug]

First of all, why would they use VFR reserves? They were flying IFR.

Second, they knew the required fuel burn and winds aloft. The FMS does a good job of keeping the fuel burn up to date and flagging if the destination fuel is less than required (considering IFR reserves)

Let the NTSB investigate.

I meant to say VMC reserves.

The rule is that even if you're on an IFR flight plan, you don't need IFR alternate reserves
unless one hour before or one hour after the ETA at your destination, you'll need to file
for an alternate IF it's not 2,000' ceiling and three miles of visibility. Otherwise, it's typically
45 minutes of reserves after you get to your VMC destination. But that can vary with the
charter company. If it's not 2,000' and three miles (one hour before and after ETA),
you'll need enough fuel to fly to your alternate and fly for 45 more minutes after you
reach that alternate. And you can't use that as an alternate unless it's predicted to
be 600' and 2 miles visibility for an ILS and 800 and 2 for an LPV or any other
non-precision approach.

The weather in Naples was pretty nice - not too windy and a 4,000' ceiling at worst. I
know because I was in Fort Myers one hour after the crash but I didn't know about the
crash until after I got home.

 

[CaptainDoug]

Let the NTSB investigate.

I agree - this is all just speculation.

But just FYI, Hop-a-Jet isn't perfect. And not everything goes 100% by
the book.

• The NTSB concludes that the Hop-a-Jet pilot's failure to obtain clearance for takeoff caused a near-collision with a JetBlue flight.
• The JetBlue flight had a normal approach until the Hop-a-Jet flight took off without clearance, leading to a go-around.
• The Hop-a-Jet pilot claims that he thought he had clearance to take off, possibly due to the cold temperature affecting his judgment. No damage or injuries were reported.

NTSB Issues Final Report On Landing JetBlue Boston Near Miss

The report details the events of the day and gives a final conclusion about the cause of the close call.

simpleflying.com

 

[Half Fast]

They landed with traffic flow. The pictures are after the plane spun around from the wing tip hitting something.

Ah, got it. Thx.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I agree - this is all just speculation.

But just FYI, Hop-a-Jet isn't perfect. And not everything goes 100% by
the book.

• The NTSB concludes that the Hop-a-Jet pilot's failure to obtain clearance for takeoff caused a near-collision with a JetBlue flight.
• The JetBlue flight had a normal approach until the Hop-a-Jet flight took off without clearance, leading to a go-around.
• The Hop-a-Jet pilot claims that he thought he had clearance to take off, possibly due to the cold temperature affecting his judgment. No damage or injuries were reported.

NTSB Issues Final Report On Landing JetBlue Boston Near Miss

The report details the events of the day and gives a final conclusion about the cause of the close call.

simpleflying.com

I didn't say they were perfect.

It's you doing the nonsense speculation and fact free analysis. Give it a rest.

 

[CaptainDoug]

I didn't say they were perfect.

It's you doing the nonsense speculation and fact free analysis. Give it a rest.

We'll find out if it's nonsense or not. And it's not fact-free.
Birds causing both engines to fail is very rare - that's
a fact. The last time it happened (15 years ago), the FIRST
thing the pilot said was "hit birds, lost thrust on both engines..."

Sully Cockpit Recording from Miracle on the Hudson

Watch Sully Cockpit Recording from Miracle on the Hudson video.

www.historyvshollywood.com

 

[Ted]

I’m curious to know what those are? I’ve turned wrenches on a very similar platform some.

My experience is with the engines that are on that plane, which I used to support, and my knowledge of the plane itself is only cursory.

The main thought I've had that hasn't somehow been discussed in here would be an uncontained failure of one of the rotors (my first guess would be the high pressure turbine - HPT, but LPT and fan are possible) that exited the engine, went through the fuselage, and then took out the other engine. This sort of failure mode is extremely uncommon because it's both an uncontained failure (rare) that then happens to be a projectile at just the right angle so as to go through and take out the other engine, but it has happened. Early S-76s had this happen I believe more than once. There is absolutely enough energy in there to rip through the fuselage and hit the other engine if a disk separated. It's been a while, but I think the CF34-3 core spins at... 15-20k RPM? Something around that sound right, and HPT rotors have some heft to them

As a general concept, think United 232, but that instead of the tail mounted engine where the fan rotor took out the hydraulic lines, that it was an engine across from another engine. A failure like this happened in 2000 to a Continental DC-10 with a failure of certain low pressure turbine (LPT) components:

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/2000/20000425-2_DC10_N39081.pdf

Note that while engine #3 didn't immediately as a result of #1, there was damage to it that created enough of a vibration that the crew pulled it back to idle, flying only on engine #2. After they successfully landed and the plane was inspected, engine #2 (the one on the tail, above the fuselage) was also found damaged from debris that came out of the #1 engine, mounted below the wing on a low-wing airplane. It can go a long way. There's other examples but this one came to mind.

Incidentally, this is why turbines have life limits on components and the inspections and replacements are mandatory. When these failures happen it's generally without warning.

 

[Bell206]

Early S-76s had this happen I believe more than once.

Yes. While they didn't have a fuselage to go through, when the N2 wheel burst it either took out the other engine or went down, took out the master electrical box, then exited through the baggage compartment. The temp fix was to install a 5/8" thick Inconel steel external condiment shield on each engine to keep the pieces controlled. And if I recall correctly, it ended up being the new style "peashooter" shaft would fracture and cause an N2 overspeed. Went back to the old style shaft all good. Similar issues with the LTS-101 series if you remember those. But Lycoming never recovered from the bad PR and getting only 50 hrs out of wheels for a spell. Now its a bear of an engine, but even with a new owner and name, HTS900, nobody wants it.

 

[Ted]

Similar issues with the LTS-101 series if you remember those. But Lycoming never recovered from the bad PR and getting only 50 hrs out of wheels for a spell. Now its a bear of an engine, but even with a new owner and name, HTS900, nobody wants it.

I do remember those. They were before my time, but some of the older union guys remembered testing those.

Also: 5/8" thick inconel - yeah, that's quite the tough containment shield.

 

[3393RP]

I didn't say they were perfect.

It's you doing the nonsense speculation and fact free analysis. Give it a rest.

C'mon, Doc. Obviously the pilots didn't elaborate on the reason for loss of both engines over the radio because they were protecting management's scheme of intentionally underfueling aircraft to save money.

It didn't have anything to do with both engines failing when the aircraft was in a reduced energy state, at low altitude, and roughly 90 seconds from touchdown. The pilots wouldn't have been focused on going through engine restart procedures or looking for someplace suitable for an emergency landing.

 

[Jim K]

From Juan brown's youtube comments, so you know, all the salt, but it sounds plausible...



I don't know enough about it to have an opinion, but I thought it was an interesting take.

 

[MauiJim]

Plane crash on Florida interstate leaves at least 2 dead: sheriff's office

A plane crashed on Interstate 75 in Florida on Friday afternoon, kiling at least two people, the Collier County Sheriff's Office said.

www.foxnews.com

All the possibilities have been covered here except one. I’m retired from the corporate aviation field (30+ years + 10 years below wing with a major CRJ operator but not a pilot) Call me crazy but there is no real security that would prevent a pax from boarding this A/C and taking it down. There was nothing that would keep anyone out of the cockpit. No airliner style door. Reaching the throttles, fuel cutoff and engine fire buttons is very easy from the jump seat. It’s not likely these pax were vetted before they boarded. Maybe not even asked for a DI to name match. Just saying I hope the NTSB has asked the Federal Marshals to keep an eye on all 3 of them until the CVR and FDR analysis clears them. Hope to God I’m wrong.

 

[MauiJim]

From Juan brown's youtube comments, so you know, all the salt, but it sounds plausible...

View attachment 125261

I don't know enough about it to have an opinion, but I thought it was an interesting take.

I agree. Could have easily been caused by someone that was on-board. Crew mistake OR a pax intent on suicide. The FBO and cockpit are not secure like a CRJ. ANXIOUSLY awaiting CVR & FDR results.

 

[Doc Holliday]

All the possibilities have been covered here except one. I’m retired from the corporate aviation field (30+ years + 10 years below wing with a major CRJ operator but not a pilot) Call me crazy but there is no real security that would prevent a pax from boarding this A/C and taking it down. There was nothing that would keep anyone out of the cockpit. No airliner style door. Reaching the throttles, fuel cutoff and engine fire buttons is very easy from the jump seat. It’s not likely these pax were vetted before they boarded. Maybe not even asked for a DI to name match. Just saying I hope the NTSB has asked the Federal Marshals to keep an eye on all 3 of them until the CVR and FDR analysis clears them. Hope to God I’m wrong.

Under 135 passengers are vetted. And ID's are checked.

 

[ateamer]

All the possibilities have been covered here except one. I’m retired from the corporate aviation field (30+ years + 10 years below wing with a major CRJ operator but not a pilot) Call me crazy but there is no real security that would prevent a pax from boarding this A/C and taking it down. There was nothing that would keep anyone out of the cockpit. No airliner style door. Reaching the throttles, fuel cutoff and engine fire buttons is very easy from the jump seat. It’s not likely these pax were vetted before they boarded. Maybe not even asked for a DI to name match. Just saying I hope the NTSB has asked the Federal Marshals to keep an eye on all 3 of them until the CVR and FDR analysis clears them. Hope to God I’m wrong.

Why would they take it down at the end of the flight? And the US Marshal’s Service serves federal arrest warrants and extradites fugitives. They don’t keep an eye on accident victims, even if someone has a theory they got from watching too many poorly-written TV shows.

 

[MauiJim]

All the possibilities have been covered here except one. I’m retired from the corporate aviation field (30+ years + 10 years below wing with a major CRJ operator but not a pilot) Call me crazy but there is no real security that would prevent a pax from boarding this A/C and taking it down. There was nothing that would keep anyone out of the cockpit. No airliner style door. Reaching the throttles, fuel cutoff and engine fire buttons is very easy from the jump seat. It’s not likely these pax were vetted before they boarded. Maybe not even asked for a DI to name match. Just saying I hope the NTSB has asked the Federal Marshals to keep an eye on all 3 of them until the CVR and FDR analysis clears them. Hope to God I’m wrong.

Thanks, I understand 135. But neither would provide the crew with any real deterrent. I’m quite sure that gust questioning a pax or a call back to the office questioning a passenger’s viability would cause a crew member a lot of grief. There are a lot of sick people out there that aren’t being identified and treated.

 

[MauiJim]

Why would they take it down at the end of the flight? And the US Marshal’s Service serves federal arrest warrants and extradites fugitives. They don’t keep an eye on accident victims, even if someone has a theory they got from watching too many poorly-written TV shows.

Ok. You’re right. The FBI then. People that know these aircraft are really scratching their heads. This ship shows it flies several charters a week so it was not a hanger queen they just threw on the line. As I said, I hope I’m wrong.