Plane before licence?

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Jameson

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Jguam317
I am about to start my private pilot certification and while looking at prices, I saw that the bulk of the cost is plane rental. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to just put the money that i would use to rent a plane towards buying a plane and using the plane i bought for the certification. Let me know your thoughts, thanks.
Also, if so, what is a good 4 seater that i should start with?
 
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I have a friend who bought his Arrow before his first lesson and got his PPL in it.

Not at all uncommon.
 
The process of selling an airplane can be equated to torture by Isis. Unless there is a compelling reason to buy a plane, such as no rentals available, I think you would be far better served renting, getting experience in a few types, and having a better idea what your actual mission is before you buy.
 
Sac Arrow said:
The process of selling an airplane can be equated to torture by Isis. Unless there is a compelling reason to buy a plane, such as no rentals available, I think you would be far better served renting, getting experience in a few types, and having a better idea what your actual mission is before you buy.
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This.

Some people do buy cars without ever having driven any, but it’s relatively rare.

Same deal with airplanes. It’s peobably wise to take a few for a test flight before deciding what you want to buy.
 
If you pass the medical,it can make sense,to buy. If you buy a well maintained trainer,you should have no trouble selling it,when you move up.
 
My answer is no. No need to assume the risk and expense of being an airplane owner until you have the license. I've known too many student pilots who quit after figuring out that flying wasn't what they thought it would be.

The transactional costs of buying and selling an airplane are substantial.
 
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I did. Never regretted it. I am the type that despises renting or leasing anything. Do good research, take your time and make educated purchase, the so called pros of renting get out weighed by the pros of ownership.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
There are a lot of great reasons to buy an airplane. I did it and don't regret it.

But, "to save money" is never a valid reason to buy an airplane.
 
Hey now, our POAer Mullian bought that C206, remember? Got his PPC and instrument rating in it.

Where is that rascal anyway, anyone see him?
 
Id wait a bit, you don't yet know enough to make a good buy.

Also don't forget to look into taildraggers
 
I did it. SR20.
Loved it. About the dumbest thing I did was selling the plane.

Tim
 
I did it. Never regretted it. Hard to go wrong with a good Cherokee. It helps if you have some idea of how you are going to use the plane. It is a lot cheaper to buy avionics already installed instead of installing it yourself. For a cross country plane, you probably want at least 160 HP
 
What will be your mission after training? Know that, and you'll know the aircraft to train in. and save buying two aircraft.
 
I did it. I love my airplane, but my idea of what I want has changed as I have gained experience in aviation. If I had it to do over again I would have bought a different plane to begin with. I would rent at least until you've started cross country flyIng.

The pride in ownership and 100% availability are big benefits to owning during flight training.

If you really like flying and want to go places, you're going to want something fully IFR equipped with good radios, a good autopilot, and some speed.

When I bought my plane, my mission was to complete my PPL and have something reliable to fly around in. Now my mission has changed to getting IFR rated and going places. I'm going to need a different plane. I may well have been better off renting. I've enjoyed it all, but my advice is to wait and make sure you know what you want to do before buying a plane.
 
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Jameson said:
I saw that the bulk of the cost is plane rental.
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If you are gonna purchase, go for it sooner than later but I would argue the "bulk" of the cost of PPL training is actually fuel, CFI time, MX and hangar/storage...not just the dry rental equivalent value of the plane itself. You still have all those other costs.
 
I'm also doing it (182). But there was already one pilot in the family and I had several hours in right seat to know it was for me.

Get the medical first.

Owning will be somewhat cheaper, but maybe not as much as you think. A lot depends on what you fly. For example, learning in a 182 vs 172 will cost you about 4gal/hr more. If it takes you 70hrs to finish, that just set you back close to $1500. Throw in a set of tires and you're at $2000. Add 5 months of hangar rentals and your at $3500. Three oil changes by mechanic and you're at $4000. Now the biggie, maintenance reserve fund at at least $30/hr for 70hrs. So now you're at $6100. Ill guess zero-time insurance to be $200/month for 5 months so now at $7100. So those might be some or all the costs you didn't think of.

Now add the baseline cost of 8gal/hr for 70hrs and you're up another $2800. So let's call it $10,000 even to learn in a 182 from zero time. This doesn't include initial purchase inspection/ annual or any financing you might be using.

Now let's say a 172 rental at the FBO is $160/hr wet. That's around $11,300. You're not on the hook for maintenance, tires, hangar, etc.

Not much difference!

Now let's say you learn in a rented 152, should take a few less hours and notably cheaper rental bringing it cheaper than learning in a larger, faster plane.

So yes, it's a bit cheaper and the money seems to go to your plane...but none of that money is increasing the value of your plane, rather just paying for things as they are consumed. I feel like the Oracle from the matrix, just giving you news you don't want the hear.

Learning in your plane and always available for you....awesome :)

Know you love flying before you buy a plane.

Ps. no instructor fees in there (same for all options).
 
I bought a Cherokee when I was about 10 hours into my training. I did not regret it. You will fly more often with your own plane and you always know the condition and how it was left on the last flight. As mentioned, it probably isn't cheaper than renting, though.
 
John221us said:
I bought a Cherokee when I was about 10 hours into my training. I did not regret it. You will fly more often with your own plane and you always know the condition and how it was left on the last flight. As mentioned, it probably isn't cheaper than renting, though.
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As in cheaper i meant, instead of spending 7000 on 65 hour plane rental, i could put it towards my own.
 
Salty said:
There are a lot of great reasons to buy an airplane. I did it and don't regret it.

But, "to save money" is never a valid reason to buy an airplane.
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Nonsense. I saved tens of thousands of dollars by buying an airplane. Depends on your mission. The only reason I did it was to save money, and oh boy I did save.
 
mtuomi said:
Nonsense. I saved tens of thousands of dollars by buying an airplane. Depends on your mission. The only reason I did it was to save money, and oh boy I did save.
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Nonsense. First of all my post was tongue in cheek. Flying an airplane is a good way to turn a fortune into a modest living at best if you make it a career for 30 years. Otherwise it's burning money. It's a better way to burn money than a lot of other indulgences, but still.

And second, by the time you buy a plane and maintain it for a year you've spent way more than you would have renting. At that point you have two options. 1. Sell it, and if you are very lucky not lose more than you "saved". This only works if you have a good, cheap mechanic, and there are no hidden surprise issues with the plane. This is at best a gamble that you won, rather than "saving money". 2. You keep it and you're in the situation described in the first paragraph where you're going to continue to spend loads of money on a hobby that no sane person could call "saving money".

But again, I own and don't regret it, but I don't fool myself into thinking I'm saving money by owning a plane, other than maybe choosing it over a heroin addiction.
 
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I bought a beautiful old, low time, straight tail 172 for $25,000, scratched my nuts, and mumbled "hmmm, guess I ought to learn how to fly, huh?"

I learned to fly in it and put over 250 hours on it. Then I found a beautiful old, low time, straight tail 182. I bought it, and sold the 172 for the same $25,000 that I paid for it. Learning to fly in my own plane was the bomb!! I wouldn't trade that experience for anything...especially since I'm overly anal retentive about both proper mx and cleanliness.

I used to beat myself up over how many hours I had when I finally went to take my check ride. Well over 100. I thought I must be really stupid. Then one day I analyzed how many of those hours were instructional and how many were just me going out and playing after I soloed. 48 were instructional and over 60 were me just playing since I owned a plane and mentally all that the flying was costing me was gas. I also had access to 4 airports that were within the magic 24nm distance and that I'd been signed off to fly repeat XCs to. So I'd fly round robin XCs, do two or threelandings at each, or just go out and play and practice upper air work. I would have never done that had I been paying full rental price.

One other benefit of owning, if you're in a region where 0E autogas is available, and you buy a plane that can be, or is, STC'ed for MoGas, then you can save some substantial money on fuel. MoGas can run $1 to $2 cheaper than AvGas at the field in many places. The price difference when I was training was typically in the $1.50 range and I'd try to run a blend between 2/1 and 3/1 MoGas/AvGas. This alone saved over $2,000.

kyleb said:
The transactional costs of buying and selling an airplane are substantial.
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I think that depends greatly on what you know, who you know, and where you live. My transacational costs were next to nil except for sales tax.

The key is finding a good plane and, like others have said, make sure you are committed to see it through before you buy.

Or, maybe I just got lucky..........
 
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I owned my first plane before I had my certificate. Mine was on floats so I had to rent a wheel plane to finish training and do my check ride. I started my flaot rating the next day, simultaneously flying off the insurer's required dual instruction hours. If you can afford a plane and the plane represents a good investment? It makes sense.
 
I did that, still doing it, yet to get my license. Does it makes sense? Well..... owning a plane doesn't makes sense to any sane people... but we ain't sane

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Eh, I always thought it was putting the cart before the horse. Lots of people quite flying before they get licensed. Before you have 'some' experience, you really don't have a good knowledge based with which to make a good purchase decision. But it's clearly worked for some POA-ers here.
 
I bought a nice 152 after soloing, as I was confident at that point that I would get my license. Many people will tell you to buy your last plane first, but I actually liked owning a 152 as it sort of let me figure out what exactly is involved in airplane ownership in a relatively inexpensive fashion. There are some extra factors that are worth considering when owning an airplane that made it make sense for me too:
  • Proximity to an airport with an available hangar
  • A&P availability on field
  • Local fuel price
  • Local rental fleet
  • Viable for travel
The above items all added up to having ownership make sense for me, but it doesn't make sense for a lot of people.
 
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Challenged said:
I bought a nice 152 after soloing, as I was confident at that point that I would get my license. Many people will tell you to buy your first plane last, but I actually liked owning a 152 as it sort of let me figure out what exactly is involved in airplane ownership in a relatively inexpensive fashion. There are some extra factors that are worth considering when owning an airplane that made it make sense for me too:
  • Proximity to an airport with an available hangar
  • A&P availability on field
  • Local fuel price
  • Local rental fleet
  • Viable for travel
The above items all added up to having ownership make sense for me, but it doesn't make sense for a lot of people.
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Pretty sure you mean "Buy your last plane first". If not, you're going to have to explain what the heck that means.
 
mtuomi said:
Nonsense. I saved tens of thousands of dollars by buying an airplane. Depends on your mission. The only reason I did it was to save money, and oh boy I did save.
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No, no you didn't. But, I give you kudos: way to convince yourself!
 
I bought my first plane a week AFTER I got my license, with 44 hours in my log book. It really would have made little difference if I had bought it earlier with only 4 hours, but once you GET your license, I highly recommend getting a plane. Of all the reasons I could name to get your own aircraft, saving money would absolutely NOT be one of them...
 
timwinters said:
I bought a beautiful old, low time, straight tail 172 for $25,000, scratched my nuts, and mumbled "hmmm, guess I ought to learn how to fly, huh?"

I learned to fly in it and put over 250 hours on it. Then I found a beautiful old, low time, straight tail 182. I bought it, and sold the 172 for the same $25,000 that I paid for it. Learning to fly in my own plane was the bomb!! I wouldn't trade that experience for anything...especially since I'm overly anal retentive about both proper mx and cleanliness.

I used to beat myself up over how many hours I had when I finally went to take my check ride. Well over 100. I thought I must be really stupid. Then one day I analyzed how many of those hours were instructional and how many were just me going out and playing after I soloed. 48 were instructional and over 60 were me just playing since I owned a plane and mentally all that the flying was costing me was gas. I also had access to 4 airports that were within the magic 24nm distance and that I'd been signed off to fly repeat XCs to. So I'd fly round robin XCs, do two or threelandings at each, or just go out and play and practice upper air work. I would have never done that had I been paying full rental price.

One other benefit of owning, if you're in a region where 0E autogas is available, and you buy a plane that can be, or is, STC'ed for MoGas, then you can save some substantial money on fuel. MoGas can run $1 to $2 cheaper than AvGas at the field in many places. The price difference when I was training was typically in the $1.50 range and I'd try to run a blend between 2/1 and 3/1 MoGas/AvGas. This alone saved over $2,000.



I think that depends greatly on what you know, who you know, and where you live. My transacational costs were next to nil except for sales tax.

The key is finding a good plane and, like others have said, make sure you are committed to see it through before you buy.

Or, maybe I just got lucky..........
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just sales tax on that and an annual and oil changes cost you at least $3,000. And that's a ridiculously unreasonably conservative estimate of 250 hours of flight maintenance. I'm guessing it was 2 to 4 times that in reality if you did anything at all to make the plane more pleasant or customized to you. I also bet you filled a hangar or hangar box full of tools and sundry items you never would have bought if you rented. Did you pay for a tie-down or hangar rent? More money..... you just ignore all this stuff because HOLY CRAP, I OWN AN AIRPLANE! :D
 
Jameson said:
I am about to start my private pilot certification and while looking at prices, I saw that the bulk of the cost is plane rental. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to just put the money that i would use to rent a plane towards buying a plane and using the plane i bought for the certification. Let me know your thoughts, thanks.
Also, if so, what is a good 4 seater that i should start with?
Click to expand...
I bought a piper 140 halfway through getting my ppl. Flew it for 100 hours then sold it and bought another plane to work on my instrument rating. When I bought the first plane I did not know I was going for my instrument rating or I would have looked for a plane that had ifr certified avionics.
 
Salty said:
just sales tax on that and an annual and oil changes cost you at least $3,000. And that's a ridiculously unreasonably conservative estimate of 250 hours of flight maintenance. I'm guessing it was 2 to 4 times that in reality if you did anything at all to make the plane more pleasant or customized to you. I also bet you filled a hangar or hangar box full of tools and sundry items you never would have bought if you rented. Did you pay for a tie-down or hangar rent? More money..... you just ignore all this stuff because HOLY CRAP, I OWN AN AIRPLANE! :D
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This, plus if you happen to live in a state that charges Use Tax (e.g. California), you will pay that too.

The cost of aircraft ownership is not small. Probably worth renting during training unless you're chronically finding that you are not able to use the aircraft when you want. If you do decide to purchase, a partnership is a good, but know that you're going to be "that guy" who raises insurance for everyone (unless there's another partner with lower hours in the logbook.)

That being said, there's no feeling like having your own airplane, being able to fly it when you want, and not having to worry about how it's being treated since you're the only pilot using the aircraft. I have no regrets acquiring my own aircraft.
 
I bought a 41 Taylorcraft about half way through my training. The school I was using wouldn't let me do my instruction in it but did check me out and sign me off to solo it from home base to the schools airport and back for instruction in their plane. Mine had no radios or nav equipment which was the main reason to not allow training in it. I had no problem with that. I ended up with just under 100 hr when I took my check ride and most of that was solo time in my own plane. It was worth every cent to buy before getting my ticket. I could fly when I wanted rather than when the plane was available and I didn't have to drive 90 miles to do it. Since the plane I was doing my training in was a newer and more powerful version of the Taylorcraft the experience was applicable due to similar handling characteristics. In addition it was a hell of a lot of fun.

I think if you buy a decent used plane you won't lose much if anything if you decide to sell later. Other than inspections there aren't any closing costs or fees for buying or selling so you won't have much to lose or gain there. If you buy new you're going to lose a lot as soon as you sign the papers and start the engine. Drive off the lot depreciation is a killer.

Go for it and have a good time

Frank
 
I bought my Cherokee before I had my PPC. Never regretted it, even after the first two annuals which fixed all the pricey stuff the previous owner's mechanic pencil whipped.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I bought my Cherokee before I had my PPC. Never regretted it, even after the first two annuals which fixed all the pricey stuff the previous owner's mechanic pencil whipped.
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I had this same experience (the guy I hired to do the pre-buy did a poor job). I paid $25k for my 140 and easily put that much in again in catch up mx over the first two years. This does not include any fixed fees, such as hangar, insurance, etc. But, as I mentioned above, I did not regret it. I loved that plane. Being able to squeeze in a few laps around the pattern before work or after. It is hard to do spontaneous stuff in a rental. I definitely flew more with my own plane. Mentally, the fixed costs are already spent, so yes, you think of it as just spending gas.
 
If you want to own an airplane, buy one. If the issue is primarily economics, why are you getting a private certificate :)
 
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