Piston single into KMSP

iamtheari

iamtheari

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I have an upcoming trip to Minneapolis where I will spend two days in meetings at a hotel that is more or less at the KMSP airport. I am not a mission-critical attendee so I am leaning toward flying to the meeting. I would almost certainly go in a Cherokee. I would probably land at a reliever airport and take Uber or a taxi across town, but I want to at least explore the option of landing right at KMSP. I know avgas runs $8/gallon at Signature, the FBO listed by ForeFlight for KMSP. I know that there are landing fees but have no idea how they are calculated. I wouldn't consider this if it weren't for the immediately adjacent hotel hosting my meeting while I'm in town. But if I ever do land at the big class B airport, this is as good a time as any.

Has anyone here flown into KMSP in a piston single? The most I can find here has been people asking about doing touch and goes (apparently frowned upon by the "Training flights prohibited" remark in the A/FD). Would it be cheaper to just charter a helicopter across town from a reliever airport than to pay the landing fee at the big one?
 
I've landed at Anoka and Crystal.. just north of MSP. Both great airports only 15 minutes to downtown by car.
 
Anoka County is close to some family so it's on my list of airports to get comfortable with in the Twin Cities. That and Flying Cloud are probably my top choices for this meeting if I talk myself out of this "closer is better" thought process.
 
Best way to figure out the landing fee is just give the FBO a ring let them know it's a piston single how many days it would be for and they'll be able to tell you the landing and ramp/service fees. And if you plan on taking fuel if they waive any of those fees with a fuel purchase. I fly into MSP every now and then for work in a jet and it doesn't seem too terribly busy I'd imagine they'd be able to squeeze you in no problem. I've taken my 182 into several class B airports including Orlando international and they work with you like any other airport! Just be prepared for some extra vectors here and there and to be asked to keep your speed up on final as long as practical.
 
I've landed a C-172 at MSP, but not in the last 25 years or so, but I was recently based there for 17 years, flying turbine equipment.
Look at other posts here about landing at a busy Class B airport for info about procedures.

Yes there is an occasional single engine plane there at Signature, so it's still being done without problems. It's just a matter of paying the price like ramp fees and fuel and fitting in with the other traffic.
STP would by closer than either MIC or ANE. A cab ride from STP is about 20 minutes, I know, I do it regularly as I'm based at STP. I think the fare is about 35$ with a tip of course, I'm not sure on the exact price as the other guy always pays it.

The drive from ANE to MSP is 30 minutes, I know, I live next to ANE and did the drive for those 17 years.
A call to Signature would answer questions about fees and how they're calculated.
 
JustinD said:
I've taken my 182 into several class B airports including Orlando international and they work with you like any other airport! Just be prepared for some extra vectors here and there and to be asked to keep your speed up on final as long as practical.
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Do it for the experience! As Justin stated, expect vectors and your speed on final. I've been into ATL, CLT, TPA, ORL, and MEM in GA airplanes, not much difference from a nonairline class D airport.
 
A friend of mine takes a Cirrus in there from time to time, he's told me getting in and out of MSP is no big deal. I'd say the biggest deciding factor for me would be if I wanted to pay the fees associated with landing and parking there for a few days.
 
Just fly in and pay the minimum fuel (usually 10gallons) and they will waive most of the fees.. I'd do it just for the convenience ..


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Thanks for the encouragement and advice so far.

Convenience is debatable. Depending on where they have me land, it could take longer to taxi at KMSP than to ride in a taxi from KSTP or even KANE, KMIC, or KFCM. But let's assume they put me down roughly in the corner of the airport where the FBO is located. Cost is clearly in favor of landing elsewhere, because even 10 gallons at $8 instead of $5 or $6 exceeds the estimated UberX fare from KSTP to the hotel. But after flying 4-5 hours (depends on winds and how long they vector me around) in a rental Cherokee I won't be in any rational position to pinch pennies on fuel. And in the future I am much more likely to fly into KSTP, KFCM, or KANE than KMSP so I'd probably benefit more in the long run from getting to know the procedures, FBOs, ground transportation options, and people at those airports. The feeling of accomplishment of successfully utilizing the biggest airport anywhere near me is probably worth more than all that, though.

Most of it is apparently just like driving on the interstate. The same rules apply on I-80 across Wyoming as on I-580 in San Francisco, there's just a lot more going on so you need to apply more rules in less time than you did in Wyoming. I do recognize that flying in the Class B airspace and keeping up with who's talking to whom all while maintaining altitude is going to be the real challenging part, but I had better get used to that if I want to get my instrument rating anyhow. I think that operating at the big airport is mostly going to be an exercise in keeping speeds up and not missing turns.

I should probably practice landings with a faster approach speed, get a more solid idea how much forward speed I can offer both in level flight and on approach, and get a feel for how fast I can comfortably taxi. Also I will want to listen to MSP Ground on LiveATC and get a picture of taxi routes assigned to GA planes. And buy the audio cord to record from the plane's intercom to my iPhone so I can memorialize the experience in case I never repeat it. :)
 
Your last paragraph sounds like a good plan for practice.
Know the requirements for entering Class B, listen up for your N number for vectors and altitudes. Practice landing with less than full flaps,with a higher approach speed and still being able to bleed off excess speed on final, and make a certain turnoff with accuracy.

You will probably get a landing on 30L making the turn off at W3 or W5, with Signature being right there in front of you. Landing on 12R is a little more involved as is 30R or 12L. They will do their best to get you close to Signature so you don't have to taxi all around the airport. Be very familiar with the airport diagram and have it out in front of you. Know where you are and be aware of hold short lines. Listen up! You may get a landing on 35 with a little more routing to cross 4-22 into Sig. You will not land on 17, so don't expect that, at MSP it's land on 35 or TO on 17, never the other way around. Any landing or TO on 4-22 isn't gonna happen either.
On TO, it's ATIS, clearance and then ground, and tower.
 
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I fly into ANE fairly often as I have family there. To work in class b Minneapolis is a good one because it is pretty quiet vs say Chicago/Dallas/Atlanta. The controllers are friendly and when you leave they will just assume you want flight following. I have not gone to MSP but on last landing in Anoka they were vectoring a 172 to MSP so it isn't uncommon for them to land GA.
 
Call the General Aviation concessionair and talk to them about the cost of leaving your plane there. Airnav has their phone number. Try not to arrive at "rush hour".
 
It's not so much the plane as it is the pilot being alert and competent, and the ability to adapt flying technique's to fit into the traffic situations.
 
I showed up there a few years ago with the Lancair as I had a conference that was right next to the airport. Arrived VFR, departed IFR but it wouldn't have made any difference either way. It's just another airport. Call the FBO and ask them about the fee schedule so you know exactly what you're in for and then make your decision.

I did have a small challenge there, but it was based on traffic at the time, rather than a MSP-specific issue. Towered cleared me for takeoff 90 secs after a heavy 767 with a Gulfstream on final and a few jets behind him. It was a 'go now, or wait for quite a while longer' situation, so I accepted the t/o clearance with the caveat that I'd be offsetting immediately to the left upon takeoff (it was a left crosswind). I didn't realize the parallel taxiway was relatively close to the runway (with a Gulfstream taxiing towards the runway on that parallel taxiway), so I had to strike a balance between not scaring the crap out of the taxiing Gulfstream, but staying upwind of the 767 wake. If you prefer to be conservative, you can always reject the takeoff clearance until you're 100% happy, but prepared to wait if it's a worst case scenario, traffic-wise. If there's a crosswind, offsetting to the upwind side should keep you clear of just about anything.

Just make sure you are comfortable operating in a high traffic environment with a busy radio and you're good to go a pretty much any airport in the country.

Departure was uneventful after that, a couple of vectors and step up altitudes, and then they sent me on my way. Just what you'd expect from a Bravo.
 
iamtheari said:
Has anyone here flown into KMSP in a piston single? The most I can find here has been people asking about doing touch and goes (apparently frowned upon by the "Training flights prohibited" remark in the A/FD). Would it be cheaper to just charter a helicopter across town from a reliever airport than to pay the landing fee at the big one?
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Went in in a TriPacer a couple decades back. They put me on a 20 mile straight in final and then put a jet behind me. A quarter mile from the runway they told me to go around. Hopefully they've learned a thing or two by now.
 
Fleming Field, South St. Paul is the closest and the easier traffic-wise to get over to KMSP. They often have the cheapest fuel. You can also get the airplane hangared if the weather turns grim. I was there a couple of years ago and then called me when a line of thunderstorms were coming and to tell me that there was hangar space available and I think it was only like $20 or so. They couldn't have been nicer. I learned at ANE almost 4 decades ago and have flown regularly into all the airport around there, including MSP regularly. Not so much since I moved out to the west coast.
 
iamtheari said:
Thanks for the encouragement and advice so far.

Convenience is debatable. Depending on where they have me land, it could take longer to taxi at KMSP than to ride in a taxi from KSTP or even KANE, KMIC, or KFCM. But let's assume they put me down roughly in the corner of the airport where the FBO is located. Cost is clearly in favor of landing elsewhere, because even 10 gallons at $8 instead of $5 or $6 exceeds the estimated UberX fare from KSTP to the hotel. But after flying 4-5 hours (depends on winds and how long they vector me around) in a rental Cherokee I won't be in any rational position to pinch pennies on fuel. And in the future I am much more likely to fly into KSTP, KFCM, or KANE than KMSP so I'd probably benefit more in the long run from getting to know the procedures, FBOs, ground transportation options, and people at those airports. The feeling of accomplishment of successfully utilizing the biggest airport anywhere near me is probably worth more than all that, though.

Most of it is apparently just like driving on the interstate. The same rules apply on I-80 across Wyoming as on I-580 in San Francisco, there's just a lot more going on so you need to apply more rules in less time than you did in Wyoming. I do recognize that flying in the Class B airspace and keeping up with who's talking to whom all while maintaining altitude is going to be the real challenging part, but I had better get used to that if I want to get my instrument rating anyhow. I think that operating at the big airport is mostly going to be an exercise in keeping speeds up and not missing turns.

I should probably practice landings with a faster approach speed, get a more solid idea how much forward speed I can offer both in level flight and on approach, and get a feel for how fast I can comfortably taxi. Also I will want to listen to MSP Ground on LiveATC and get a picture of taxi routes assigned to GA planes. And buy the audio cord to record from the plane's intercom to my iPhone so I can memorialize the experience in case I never repeat it. :)
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The biggest challenge will be how to sort out all the fees! Class B airports are no different than any other airport. Listen up, don't have controllers repeat themselves, and don't bend metal. These three things have worked every time I've flown into a B (BOS, IAD, BWI, CLE, PHL, PIT)
 
Other than fees and speed on final, it sounds like 100% of the differences with the class B airport are courtesy of the class B airspace which I have to deal with anyhow (flying under the shelf would work, but why bother when there is help just above?)

South St Paul didn't get on my radar probably because it's so far out of the way for most of the reasons I have thought "I want to fly to Minneapolis." I will consider that one too for this trip. Thanks!
 
iamtheari said:
Other than fees and speed on final, it sounds like 100% of the differences with the class B airport are courtesy of the class B airspace which I have to deal with anyhow (flying under the shelf would work, but why bother when there is help just above?)

South St Paul didn't get on my radar probably because it's so far out of the way for most of the reasons I have thought "I want to fly to Minneapolis." I will consider that one too for this trip. Thanks!
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Do you plan on going VFR or IFR?
 
VFR. Instrument rating is a work in progress.
 
Calling ahead: Good idea. That brings up another question I've long had. Is there a convenient, reliable source of ATC phone numbers?
 
You really don't have to call approach, although it probably wouldnt hurt. Ive never done it so I dont really know. What I have done is 1) file a flightplan (yes it helps) 2) Come in from 40 miles out directly in line with the active runway so you get an easy straight in landing clearance 3) Have airport taxi diagrams available and ready and know where you are going on the ground (this will be the hardest thing). Ask for progressive instructions if you need them 4) Dont come in at rush hour (7-10am and 3-7 pm). Late at night is easiest on ATC, but middle of day will work and is probably better for you. Make sure you come in when the FBO is open. Have your rental car and hotel pre arranged etc.
 
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I'm curious how filing a flight plan helps. I was thinking I should not file one because, if I do end up spending a half hour getting vectored around the Class B airspace before I land, I'll likely also be unable to find a moment to call FSS and let them know about the delay and then they'll send S&R out for me. That's the last additional form of stress I want to add to the experience. But if filing a flight plan really does help, I'm game, I just want to know the benefits.
 
I can tell the difference by the tone of ATC's voice. Just my experience. Sometimes they might not know, but I have been there and they did, and it helped. And I've never seen it hurt. And get flight following from way out so they can plan for a place to put you (that one is probably more important than the flight plan). I have failed to do that and it worked against me. The flight can be done both with and without a flight plan, and people on here will tell you ATC doesn't know whether you have one or not, but I have seen that they do by what they say to me. If I wanted the highest chance of a pleasant experience, I'd file. If you are worried about not making you destination by the time you filed for, just add a healthy amount to your arrival time. And don't forget to close it in all the excitement!

Controllers are human. They like to fly and they like to help out small airplanes doing brave things if they can. When you land, try and land right in front of the tower so they can see you and when you take off level out right at the tower window height and look over and wave. They get bored dealing with the same old stuff and it will put a smile on their face to have that little plane doing that thing they all wish they were doing.

Good luck!
 
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I went in to KLAS as my first Class B last month (writeup here). I did not file a flight plan because I had VFR flight following most of the way. I was not able to maintain FF all the way to Vegas because of an enroute stop, so I contacted approach outside the Class B and was sequenced in with very little delay. Approach could not have made it any easier. I had a backup plan, had a frequency "smart card" on my kneeboard, and had researched a fair amount on this site. VFR departure was easy as well, I'm just glad I knew (from reading POA) that I needed to call clearance delivery to get out.
 
One more thing that helps. You may be coming in on a runway with a parallel next to it. You dont have to have an IFR rating to know how to use a VOR with a glideslope or a GPS that has approaches to runways or runway centerlines. It wont be a deal breaker if you dont have them, but if you do, stick the ILS freq into your Nav. Being on that needle will assure you that you are lined up with the right runway. There are ways of doing an equivalent thing with some GPS's. Being able to see the runways from far out and getting lined up is why this is sometimes actually easier at night. But dont worry if you cant do this, the tower will be watching you closely and will let you know if you stray.

There might be a big Boeing on the parallel next to. He will be going as slow as he can (120KIAS) and you will be going as fast as you can. And there might be someone behind you.

You might also practice some long straight ins at top of your green arc because its likely that is what they will want.
 
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coloradobluesky: Do you budget some additional time into your VFR flight plan ETA when flying into class B? The reason I'm so paranoid about this is that I imagine the most likely reason for delays will be lots of air traffic, which would make a frequency change to FSS to amend my ETA harder than on a quiet day.

I appreciate the GPS/ILS tip, too. I am competent with the GTN 650 that's in the plane as well as the second nav/comm and glideslope and familiar with the airport, so at use of the avionics in this plane to get on the approach path and glideslope, both GPS and ILS, and familiar with the airport, so that is my plan: Set up the instrument approach on the avionics. I always use all of the resources available to me in the cockpit so this is old hat. But the long straight in at the top of the white arc is not. Fortunately there are a couple of non-towered airports not far from here with reasonably big runways (6400x100 and 6650x100) that I can practice at during the day or night without bothering anyone.

thebruce: I just read your report. Thanks for posting it. I haven't used FF outside of approach/departure control at a class D airport where it's handy to have another set of eyes and a hand-off to tower, but I am planning to pick it up from center on all my cross-country flights between now and this planned trip, inclusive, to help me sharpen up on the radio before asking to enter the bravo airspace.
 
Sure, just add a 1/2 hour or 45 minutes to your arrival time for things that might go wrong, and then dont worry about it. FSS is going to ask approach if they know about you before they go searching anyway.

I dunno. Flight plans seemed to help me in these cases. I dont always file them, seldom do it any more. If they work against you, dont do it. The advantage Ive seen is it makes them think you have your act together. I can picture them saying "well, he filed a flight plan", so I guess we should help him out. Your idea about getting flight following from Center way out is a good one.

What Tower will really want to avoid, is you causing someone behind you to have to go around. Dont forget they still speak in terms of indicated airspeed in knots, so know that for them. They might ask you what your max IAS is going to be. The unwritten rule is if YOU screw up,are still in the air and are going to miss a turnoff and stay on the runway a long time or something like that, YOU should go around if you can if there is someone behind you. Thats really more for the big iron though, because they know someone is always behind them. In your case Tower might not put anyone behind you for a long way, so you will be ok. Thats why its good to listen on freq. I know thats different that the written rules, keep it safe no matter what you do. Really, most of the problems are going to be on the ground. You gotta get off that runway so the guy behind you can have it, if there is one. It helps to have a copilot that knows something, although its not necessary. And it helps to review the airport diagram so you know where the turnoffs are and where they lead to.

As for the straight in at the top of the green arc, just trim the nose down and leave the throttle forward, the runways are way longer than you need, you can pull the power and slow down a bit for your flare, but be able to just level out and kill off airspeed in a long flare. Try and stop near a convenient turnout to the FBO. BTW, some of those big airports have "ramp control" freq.

Ive gone into several in my little Husky, but never tried to go into KMSP. Good luck!
 
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On a student solo cross-country, I activated my flight plan in the air using the Lockheed Martin website from my phone. I departed later than planned but the website did not provide an obvious departure time option when activating it, so I arrived within my ETE but after my ETA. I was 31 minutes "late" when I called FSS to close the flight plan and they explained that I couldn't close it because it had been handed off to S&R already. Of course, S&R called the FBO, who probably told them that I had just parked the plane and was in their restroom at the moment, so there was no ill effect other than feeling dumb. Probably I should just get over it and file VFR flight plans more regularly. And you're right. Destination KMSP will make me pretty easy to find for S&R purposes if I do end up later than planned. And if I call in an updated ETA shortly before entering the class B airspace, it'll help. I think you've got me talked into it. :)
 
Yes, I used to put my watch on the other wrist when I filed. Then at the restuarant Id look down and say "darn, I have to close my flight plan". Now I dont wear a watch so I put an alarm in my phone. Hey, we've all forgotten or had trouble with flight plans and ATC as well. Comes with the territory I guess. Weird they wouldnt let you close it, Ive never run into that one.
 
I think their computer wouldn't let them close it, and that the real reason was that it had already been closed by contact with the FBO. But they didn't say it that way on the phone. They weren't unfriendly, just not as helpful as I usually get from FSS.
 
Signature and GA parking is coming off of runway 12R, 30L. It depends on the wind, they want everyone to be using the same runways so you should be prepared to get tot here from anywhere. The hardest one would be 12L, 30R. You have to cross a runway to get to Signature if you end up on that one. (Try and avoid it) But they know that and probably wont assign you that one. If they do assign 12L, 30R request 12R, 30L. 4, 22 could cause problems depending on where you stop. Study up on things like that.
 
Yeah, I am anticipating a 30L, 12R, or 35 arrival as those are what I've found evidence of other piston singles getting. If I get a 30L I can land shortish and get over to Signature with one turn. 12R and I just land long to accomplish the same thing. It sounds like 12L, 30R, 4, 22, and 17 are all very unlikely for a small plane to get thrown at.
 
In case anyone else is thinking about doing this, the current charges quoted by Signature at KMSP:

Landing: $70.34
Infrastructure: $5.00
Ramp parking: $29.00/night
Hangar parking: $115.00/night
Tie downs: not available
Handling: $38.00 without fuel, waived with 7 gallons of fuel (currently $8.07/gal)

With my Tuesday arrival the busy time to avoid is 2:00-4:30 p.m.

Still considering it. $190 for two nights and minimum fuel purchase is, on the whole, not so bad. But I may opt for an "easier" airport when the time comes and save this adventure for later. We'll see.
 
iamtheari said:
I'm curious how filing a flight plan helps. I was thinking I should not file one because, if I do end up spending a half hour getting vectored around the Class B airspace before I land, I'll likely also be unable to find a moment to call FSS and let them know about the delay and then they'll send S&R out for me. That's the last additional form of stress I want to add to the experience. But if filing a flight plan really does help, I'm game, I just want to know the benefits.
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There aren't any as far as your operation is concerned. I wouldn't bother filing.
 
mscard88 said:
Do it for the experience! As Justin stated, expect vectors and your speed on final. I've been into ATL, CLT, TPA, ORL, and MEM in GA airplanes, not much difference from a nonairline class D airport.
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Flew out of CLT commercial a few weeks ago.... Squashed between two cattle cars was a Cirrus waiting for departure. Made that sucker look tiny. I was waiting for the one in front to throttle up and blow the Cirrus over as he was taxing waaaaaay to close in my opinion.
 
Unit74 said:
Flew out of CLT commercial a few weeks ago.... Squashed between two cattle cars was a Cirrus waiting for departure. Made that sucker look tiny. I was waiting for the one in front to throttle up and blow the Cirrus over as he was taxing waaaaaay to close in my opinion.
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A jet, once it stops say on a taxiway, to get all that mass moving again will take some power (the heavier the more power it takes to get going again). If you're a small plane, like a Cirrus, and you're too close behind that jet you're gonna get blasted. Give them room!
 
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