Piper Saratoga for Training

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Hook3m1rish

Filing Flight Plan
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Feb 28, 2022
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Hook3m1rish
Hello:

First time poster. I recently started training for my PPL (less than 15 hours flight time) and I'm a planner, so I thought I would start thinking about the future. Ideally, and of course down the line, I'd like to take my family (wife and three small children) on weekend trips to nearby locations (we are in Los Angeles, so Santa Barbara, Mammoth, San Diego, and perhaps as far as Park City, Utah eventually). I'm currently training in a 172S and my thought is after I complete my PPL and log around 100 hours, I'd like to purchase a Piper Saratoga with the idea that I put in another 100 or so hours of solo time on that plane before I embark on weekend trips. I'd also use the Saratoga to see if I could get my high performance and complex endorsements and within the next 18 months get an instrument rating.

My question for the experts - is this a smart idea? My thought is that if I can use the plane that I ultimately want to use for family trips to train, I'd get both the training and familiarity with the plane that I'll end up flying.

Also, if you have thoughts on the best process for transitioning from a 172S to a plane like the Saratoga (and things to look out for, or study/practice), I would love to hear it.

Thanks so much.
 
Instead of training in 172s you might want to train in PA-28s. I also wouldn't plan on training in a Saratoga as it is more plane than you need for initial training.
 
A nose gear collapse is an expensive oopsie.....and you will be slamming a few before you get your ticket. Stick with a PA-28 or 172....the transition is no biggie. You really want to beat the crap out of the rental....not your plane. I'd recommend buying something after you get your instrument rating.

Full disclosure: I have several hundred hours in a PA-32 and owned one for almost 10 years.
 
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Your plan mostly makes sense. Here is how I would do it if I knew I were going that route:
  • Finish PPL in Cessna 172 (or, as others mentioned, get into a PA-28 like a Warrior)
  • Get comfortable soloing the plane you're in and then take a couple short flights with family, not too short but something like 45 minutes in smooth air, ideally for lunch someplace you like to drive that takes 4 hours on the ground
  • If the family likes flying, shop for family haulers like a PA-32; get the HP and complex endorsements as part of your transition training, don't worry about getting them in advance of needing them
  • Start your instrument training when you're ready, in whatever plane you're flying at the time
 
I’d save the fuel costs and train in a Pa-28. Not a lot of difference in how they fly, but they suck a lot less gas.
 
Thank you all so much. This is exactly the type of advice I was looking for.

@iamtheari I think I'll follow that plan pretty closely. I'm pretty sure my wife will like the idea, but if any of y'all have experience with little ones flying (newborn, 2, and 4) in something similar to a Saratoga for a <2 hour flight, I'd love to hear about it. They seem to do fine enough on airlines as long as we load their iPads...
 
I would do your instrument in your plane you plan to keep, after you are very comfortable in it. Makes instrument a lot easier if you know the plane well already.
 
Hook3m1rish said:
Thank you all so much. This is exactly the type of advice I was looking for.

@iamtheari I think I'll follow that plan pretty closely. I'm pretty sure my wife will like the idea, but if any of y'all have experience with little ones flying (newborn, 2, and 4) in something similar to a Saratoga for a <2 hour flight, I'd love to hear about it. They seem to do fine enough on airlines as long as we load their iPads...
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I took my sister's family on a trip in the 310 last April. My dog and I flew solo from ND to MS to pick them up and spent the night (5.7 hours with one fuel stop). Then we loaded my sister, her husband, and their kids ages 3, 6, and 9 up and flew to AZ (6.6 hours with two stops). A week later, we flew back to MS minus my dog (who rode in the car with my parents back to ND; this was 6.8 hours with one stop). Then I spent the night and flew home solo (8.3 hours with 2 stops and a diversion).

Here are some observations:
  • The kids had iPads loaded but I don't think they used them at all. The little one mostly slept. That one, now age 4, rode with for a 1.5-hour flight last week and enjoyed a show on my sister's iPhone for most of the flight.
  • The kids occasionally woke up and vomited, especially over New Mexico which was turbulent both directions. As long as they had a bag handy and a parent nearby to help, they were fine. Actual conversation near the end of the trip from AZ to MS: 3-year-old: "I don't like the bumps!" Ari: "It's okay, <name>, nobody really likes the bumps." 6-year-old: "I like the bumps!" She was holding a bag full of her own vomit when she said that.
  • Pull-ups help on the little kids in case they have to potty and can't wait.
  • Snacks are a good idea. Excessive fluids are not.

Kids tend to be easier than adults to acclimate to GA, though. Adults seem to either enjoy it, panic throughout the entire thing, or begrudgingly accept it as a means to an end. I don't think that anyone can be converted between these groups.
 
Salty said:
I’d save the fuel costs and train in a Pa-28. Not a lot of difference in how they fly, but they suck a lot less gas.
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I should clarify that I am against using the PA-32 for the private. It's a very heavy plane in pitch and I think you will be a much better pilot if you learn stick and rudder in a plane where you can really gain finesse in your touch on the controls. A PA-28 or 172 is a great choice for that.

But like you posted next, I like using the "real" airplane for the instrument rating. What you pay in extra operating expenses will be returned to you in comfort and confidence flying in the weather. Most owner-pilots fly more instrument approaches in training than they do in years of travel. Flying those approaches in your traveling airplane will make it easier to fly an approach when you're on your own in hard IMC and you know exactly how the plane is supposed to behave from all that experience.
 
I agree with everyone's comments above, get your PPL in a 172 or Cherokee, fly that for awhile, then look for your PA-32. I'd also add, you should check on insurance, it will be quite expensive for a low-time pilot in a 6-seater-retract like a Saratoga.
 
No expert here, but I trained for my PPL in a 172, and purchased a PA-32-260 with around 120 hours total time. I started my instrument rating immediately after my PPL at about 50 hours, but just wanted to fly so I took a break after 20 hours of that. Then I got checked out in, and rented, a Piper Archer, Cherokee 140, Grumman Tiger, and Traveler. I liked the Cherokee but I wanted more useful load. I couldn’t rent one where I am, so after a lot of research I bought my 6/260. I got my high performance endorsement in my aircraft.

It seems you are leaning toward retracts. I’m not sure if you are independently wealthy, but the insurance for a six seater with retracts for a low time pilot is shocking. Check the rates before buying something if that may be a factor. There are newer fixed gear Saratogas. That’s also one less thing to screw up as a new pilot. I plan to upgrade my avionics and resume working on my instrument rating soon.

Flying solo, the PA-32 flies a lot like a fully loaded PA-28 so getting some time in those ASAP is a great recommendation. I have not yet loaded it beyond a few passengers and bags, but when you pull power it sinks fast. The PA-32 is everything I expected after reading everything I could find on them. I chose the 260 for lower fuel burn and cheaper engine overhaul. I have no regrets about my choice. It still seems pretty fast for a newish pilot. You may want to look for a turbo to get into Park City comfortably, but I have no experience with mountain flying. I don’t think the Blue Ridge counts.

You will need to find a CFI with time in type to sign you off for insurance unless you can find a PA-32 to rent to build some time.
 
I have seen the cost of insurance and fuel mentioned but nobody has mentioned the fact that an IO-540 and the retractable gear will be slammed around for 40+ hours in the training environment.

The 540 is pretty robust but after 40 hours of WOT on take off and back to nothing for the approaches repetitively there might be some issues.

I once flew a 210 that had a limit from the school on the number of touch and goes you could do in an hour for that very reason.
 
Ditch the 172 training and train in a Cherokee, as others have said. Much more similar flying dynamics.
 
I transitioned from an Archer II to a Lance in one 3 hour session which included getting my HP and complex endorsements. Wasn't difficult for me but I had 500-ish hours at that point. If I'd tried it at 5 hours or 50? IDK if it would have been so easy.

One thought though, a lot of first time PA-32 owners are getting hit with sticker shock when they try to get insurance lately. Would it do OP any good to try to rent or buy an Arrow and get some retract/complex time? Or maybe go for an instrument rating in one? I know common wisdom is an IR and previous retract time help get insurance premiums down.
 
My suggestion: Start looking for a clean PA32, not a PA32R. The older the better. The retract will kill you in insurance.
If you find a PA32R before your PPL, go ahead and get it, but park it till you have your PPL. If it needs some radio upgrades for IFR, then put it in the shop and get the avionics somewhat current.

There are options on the insurance. If there is no loan, then maybe no insurance at first. If there is a loan, then get only "not-in-motion" coverage or only "open pilot" coverage. Once you get your PPL, add your instructor to the policy with you listed only as "one that can be trained" under his instruction. Then, get your IR training and your IR check ride. Never fly the A/C without your instructor. (Except the check ride.) Then get yourself listed as pilot. Try to get at least 25 hours dual during the IR training so you can say you have 25 hours PIC in type and an IFR when you apply to be a listed pilot. You will still pay dearly until you get more time. Plan on flying A LOT in the first year before you renew. Nothing better than renewing with 100+ in type. Some of the money you spend on fuel will be recouped when you get a lower rate the second year. (I also know one guy that got a discount on insurance for a 6-place by removing the extra seats and limiting the coverage to 4-place.
 
I haven't priced out insurance yet for myself, but I've heard some horror stories. I'm not sure the value is there to pay a $40k annual premium on a $200-300k plane. I also need to look into what the hangar availability/costs are around my area (Manhattan Beach). So, if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears. I like the idea of getting an older fixed gear 6-seater and will probably look into that.
 
Rgbeard said:
You're in California. Don't overlook the utility of a Turbo.

Not sayin'. Just sayin'.
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Thanks for this advice. What do you mean by the utility of a turbo?

Thanks again everyone!
 
Hook3m1rish said:
Thanks for this advice. What do you mean by the utility of a turbo?

Thanks again everyone!
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High density altitudes result in lower performance, requiring longer takeoff and landing runs that can make operations at shorter runways difficult, or dangerous. A turbo resolves at least some of that problem by pumping more air into the engine than it can "suck" in with natural aspiration.
 
Hook3m1rish said:
Thanks for this advice. What do you mean by the utility of a turbo?

Thanks again everyone!
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do you want to takeoff from a high elevation airport on a warm day without troubles? Such as big Bear? Turbo is your answer.

Do you want to climb up to 12.5, effortlessly, to make it over higher elevation terrain? Turbo is your answer.

you can produce your full horsepower range at much higher elevations, you can get off the ground in warm weather, and you can climb.

turbos are not so popular in the eastern United States, but for traveling in the western United States It can be an awfully good idea
 
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