Piper Down on LI

Really no excuse for that. I know the winds were very strong that night, but plenty of places to get fuel. I guess it never crossed the CFIs mind.
 
Really sad NTSB report. Could have easily been prevented.
 
Such a needless loss,but for a few gallons of gas.
 
FlySince9 said:
With an instructor on board, too...Geeze, WTF!
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Certainly my condolences to the person who died. What are the ramifications for the CFI? Having enough fuel is flight planning item number one. Lack of fuel makes a crash always a senseless loss, but if anyone should know better it is an instructor.
 
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drotto said:
Certainly my condolences to the person who died. What are the ramifications for the CFI? Having enough fuel is flight planning item number one. Lack of fuel makes a crash always a senseless loss, but if anyone should no better it is an instructor.
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709 ride probably.
 
I would hope that his CFI license be permanently revoked. Running out of fuel is something that cannot be allowed to happen. People whose job it is to be responsible for other people's lives should not get a second chance to kill somebody else.
 
orange said:
I would hope that his CFI license be permanently revoked. Running out of fuel is something that cannot be allowed to happen. People whose job it is to be responsible for other people's lives should not get a second chance to kill somebody else.
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Apart from certificate action, I'd imagine (if things are as they appear) that there's a strong chance that a wrongful-death suit would succeed, as well as possible criminal charges for causing a death by reckless or grossly negligent conduct.

Of course, we should keep in mind that the evidence available to us now may be incomplete or incorrect, so the CFI's blame is not certain.
 
Another plug for always taking off with as close to full fuel tanks as possible. But this particular flight was not a long XC. That flight from Fitchburg Mass to Long Island should use about 15 gallons tops! That's not even half of one tank. They must have taken off with close to nothing in either of the tanks!
 
jspilot said:
Another plug for always taking off with as close to full fuel tanks as possible. But this particular flight was not a long XC. That flight from Fitchburg Mass to Long Island should use about 15 gallons tops! That's not even half of one tank. They must have taken off with close to nothing in either of the tanks!
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The winds that night were cranking hard as well.

orange said:
I would hope that his CFI license be permanently revoked. Running out of fuel is something that cannot be allowed to happen. People whose job it is to be responsible for other people's lives should not get a second chance to kill somebody else.
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I will give him credit for trying to get the plane in the water close to shore, which he did, but on high tide unfortunately.

But the overlooking of the furl needs and FARs is unacceptable. Especially with so many airports along the route he could have stopped and got fuel.

This guy is probably going to have his license yanked, Someone died. I don't think a 709 ride will suffice. Then there will be the lawsuits against him personally and the school. I am sure the FAA will dig into the school records for students, instructors and mx. The school which is actually an aircraft club can of course bypass 100hr mx.

They used to run a groupon intro flight that had dinner for 2 at another airport in Connecticut. Which was kind of 134 1/2 operation. They stopped that not too long ago.
 
I don't fly the PA28's, but how much fuel can one of those hold while still remaining within W/B limits with 4 adult passengers? I'm thinking of this based on flying the light Cessna lineup, and kind of wondering if they traded fuel for people and simply made a deadly error in planning in this case.
 
jspilot said:
Another plug for always taking off with as close to full fuel tanks as possible. But this particular flight was not a long XC. That flight from Fitchburg Mass to Long Island should use about 15 gallons tops! That's not even half of one tank. They must have taken off with close to nothing in either of the tanks!
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Good rule to follow for those unable to actually MANAGE their fuel and fuel systems. If people are too lazy to do a fuel check before departing, one has to wonder what other things did they not bother with? Walk around? Weather briefing? Oil level?

Most flights on most days in most light airplanes don't come anywhere near needing full tanks.
Weight is the enemy of lift, degrades climb performance and over time adds to your cost because one is paying to fly fuel around the skies. Of course all that goes out the window the moment I happen across cheap gas somewhere :p
 
Coloradokevin said:
I don't fly the PA28's, but how much fuel can one of those hold while still remaining within W/B limits with 4 adult passengers? I'm thinking of this based on flying the light Cessna lineup, and kind of wondering if they traded fuel for people and simply made a deadly error in planning in this case.
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My PA-28 160 was 50 gallons in two wing tanks and a 940 lb useful load (640 full fuel payload). I flight planned 8.8 gph and the CG envelope was very forgiving. My biggest W/B problem was being too close to the forward limit when flying solo and if I didn't throw some tools in the baggage compartment I would run out of elevator authority and couldn't hold the nose wheel off the runway as long as I wanted after the mains were on.
 
TommyG said:
They used to run a groupon intro flight that had dinner for 2 at another airport in Connecticut. Which was kind of 134 1/2 operation. They stopped that not too long ago.
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When I read about the combination of folks on board, I wondered how much of that flight was 'training' and how much 'transportation'.
 
GRG55 said:
My PA-28 160 was 50 gallons in two wing tanks and a 940 lb useful load (640 full fuel payload). I flight planned 8.8 gph and the CG envelope was very forgiving. My biggest W/B problem was being too close to the forward limit when flying solo and if I didn't throw some tools in the baggage compartment I would run out of elevator authority and couldn't hold the nose wheel off the runway as long as I wanted after the mains were on.
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Well unless they had a leak, there's no way it took off with full tanks. If you look at the "rescue" video, these weren't FAA-standard passengers.
 
midcap said:
what is it with planes running out of fuel? Is math that hard?
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I don't think people pay enough attention to it. I'm absolutely NEUROTIC about fuel, weight and balance on my animal rescue flights. I don't mess around with that. Assume worse case hourly burn and plan accordingly.
 
Mopauly said:
I don't think people pay enough attention to it. I'm absolutely NEUROTIC about fuel, weight and balance on my animal rescue flights. I don't mess around with that. Assume worse case hourly burn and plan accordingly.
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And regardless if there was a miscalculation, that area of the country has plenty of small airports. I am not sure of the avionics on that particular plane, but it is a safe bet that they either had GPS, or somebody had an iPad with the oh crap closest airport button.
 
drotto said:
And regardless if there was a miscalculation, that area of the country has plenty of small airports. I am not sure of the avionics on that particular plane, but it is a safe bet that they either had GPS, or somebody had an iPad with the oh crap closest airport button.
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Yeah literally they could not have been outside of a 20 mile range of an airport with fuel at any point on this flight. The most likely thing I'm guessing is the CFI thought the student checked the fuel and the student thought the CFI checked the fuel and no one actually checked the fuel. If they knowingly tried to make this flight with just enough fuel than, as pointed out, the were doomed by they headwinds. But, their general direction of flight, basically southwest the entire way, is not really directly into the prevailing headwinds in this area. In fact, it could have been a tail wind most of the way and maybe if anything a quartering wind. Most often in the Long Island, Conneticut area, the winds aloft are usually Northeast or North- especially around this time of year. It just does not add up to what happened.
 
Mopauly said:
I don't think people pay enough attention to it. I'm absolutely NEUROTIC about fuel, weight and balance on my animal rescue flights. I don't mess around with that. Assume worse case hourly burn and plan accordingly.
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This. I plan for the worst.
 
jspilot said:
Yeah literally they could not have been outside of a 20 mile range of an airport with fuel at any point on this flight. The most likely thing I'm guessing is the CFI thought the student checked the fuel and the student thought the CFI checked the fuel and no one actually checked the fuel. If they knowingly tried to make this flight with just enough fuel than, as pointed out, the were doomed by they headwinds. But, their general direction of flight, basically southwest the entire way, is not really directly into the prevailing headwinds in this area. In fact, it could have been a tail wind most of the way and maybe if anything a quartering wind. Most often in the Long Island, Conneticut area, the winds aloft are usually Northeast or North- especially around this time of year. It just does not add up to what happened.
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I was instructed to physically open the fuel cap and look before every flight. Then cross reference that with what the in cockpit fuel gauge was telling me. Even on my longest day training PPL, we did not go over about 3 hours time. I trained in a PA28 and that would equal at worse 30 gallons used, but in my experience more like 25. I now fly mainly a PA32 which has a tank and bladder setup in each wing, so you can't see down into the inner metal tank. Luckily, the on wing sight gauges seem very accurate which give you the fuel in the non visible tank. Regardless, I still open the caps before each flight.
 
jspilot said:
Yeah literally they could not have been outside of a 20 mile range of an airport with fuel at any point on this flight. The most likely thing I'm guessing is the CFI thought the student checked the fuel and the student thought the CFI checked the fuel and no one actually checked the fuel...
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Brought back a recollection of a married couple I know that owned a Cherokee 235. Both are pilots. On the plane's final flight each thought the other had checked the fuel. Wrote off the plane but both came out of it okay. Not married any more.
 
drotto said:
I was instructed to physically open the fuel cap and look before every flight. Then cross reference that with what the in cockpit fuel gauge was telling me. Even on my longest day training PPL, we did not go over about 3 hours time. I trained in a PA28 and that would equal at worse 30 gallons used, but in my experience more like 25. I now fly mainly a PA32 which has a tank and bladder setup in each wing, so you can't see down into the inner metal tank. Luckily, the on wing sight gauges seem very accurate which give you the fuel in the non visible tank. Regardless, I still open the caps before each flight.
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I pour my fuel samples back into the tanks after refueling and top off for this exact reason. Piper fuel gauges seem to be fairly accurate however there's just no excuse for not taking 5 minutes to visually check the tanks.
 
Mopauly said:
I pour my fuel samples back into the tanks after refueling and top off for this exact reason. Piper fuel gauges seem to be fairly accurate however there's just no excuse for not taking 5 minutes to visually check the tanks.
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Yup, I often get called out for taking too much time to preflight, but an ounce of prevention...

I sump EVERY time I go up, or change fuel. Every..single..time. If I'm really paranoid I have a measuring stick to show me how much is in the tanks. I found out just how inaccurate the fuel gauges were on a short flight. I had a low left tank, mid-full right. Switched to right and landed. The next day I thought I had about 10 gallons, enough to get to a field and fill up on cheap gas. Went and looked and the left tank was bone dry, right tank was down to about 5-7 gallons.

Don't trust them at all anymore below half tanks. If I hit half on my tanks I'm finding a field and filling up for..sure.
 
Caramon13 said:
Yup, I often get called out for taking too much time to preflight, but an ounce of prevention...

I sump EVERY time I go up, or change fuel. Every..single..time. If I'm really paranoid I have a measuring stick to show me how much is in the tanks. I found out just how inaccurate the fuel gauges were on a short flight. I had a low left tank, mid-full right. Switched to right and landed. The next day I thought I had about 10 gallons, enough to get to a field and fill up on cheap gas. Went and looked and the left tank was bone dry, right tank was down to about 5-7 gallons.

Don't trust them at all anymore below half tanks. If I hit half on my tanks I'm finding a field and filling up for..sure.
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Unfortunately, on the PA32 there is no way to see into that lower tank, and getting a fuel rod down there seems like it would be virtually impossible. Thus why they have 4 fuel gauges, granted two of them only measure the metal tanks and are outside the cockpit. I would not expect the gauges to be accurate to the gallon, but within about 5% to 10%. I know the GPS will also estimate fuel use and give you a "reading" but you have to manually input the starting amount in, but it is a good second estimate.

I wonder what percentage of fuel starvation is a result of leaving some fuel off so people can carry more load?
 
orange said:
I would hope that his CFI license be permanently revoked. Running out of fuel is something that cannot be allowed to happen. People whose job it is to be responsible for other people's lives should not get a second chance to kill somebody else.
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As PIC, you are responsible for other people's lives. Are you sure that is the standard you want to hold yourself to? That if you mess something up, you never are allowed to fly again?
 
What was the flight, how far/long did they go? I've flow 3 very full sized adults including myself in a PA-28 with fuel to the tabs - 34 gallons, good for almost 4 hours. I was easily inside the weight limits and had a comfortable fuel margin.
 
bflynn said:
What was the flight, how far/long did they go? I've flow 3 very full sized adults including myself in a PA-28 with fuel to the tabs - 34 gallons, good for almost 4 hours. I was easily inside the weight limits and had a comfortable fuel margin.
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Depends on how you manage it. I could do the same in mine too Brian. If you mismanage fuel or carry a full load of people like pilot did in this case, your range is going to be considerably less.

I'll bet they didn't have more than 20 gallons MAX in the tanks. That's 30-45 mins per wing after taxi/takeoff/fuel burn for climb. The flight from point of origin to destination at 80 knots GS would have been almost 2 hours. It's really no surprise they ran out of fuel.
 
Which pa28 was it? I've flown 160's at 9 gph and a 180 when you would be coming down in 4hrs. All have tabs and full fuel of 48 gallons. They can all carry quite a bit of weight. Fuel gauges are notoriously inaccurate no matter what A/c. Glad he found a good spot to set it down but it's a reminder of the most common reason of general aviation accidents. Hoping the best for the friends and family of all involved.
 
Caramon13 said:
Yup, I often get called out for taking too much time to preflight, but an ounce of prevention...

I sump EVERY time I go up, or change fuel. Every..single..time. If I'm really paranoid I have a measuring stick to show me how much is in the tanks. I found out just how inaccurate the fuel gauges were on a short flight. I had a low left tank, mid-full right. Switched to right and landed. The next day I thought I had about 10 gallons, enough to get to a field and fill up on cheap gas. Went and looked and the left tank was bone dry, right tank was down to about 5-7 gallons.

Don't trust them at all anymore below half tanks. If I hit half on my tanks I'm finding a field and filling up for..sure.
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I do the same thing on the 172 I fly. I don't take off without checking the fuel. It's impossible to see far down into the tank in a 172 for obvious reasons so, I've started to do a new thing recently to check fuel height. I stick my pointer finger in the tank and if I can touch the fuel I'll take off. If not, then I'm going to consider topping off.

It's just an informal way of checking the fuel level without much effort!
 
jspilot said:
I do the same thing on the 172 I fly. I don't take off without checking the fuel. It's impossible to see far down into the tank in a 172 for obvious reasons so, I've started to do a new thing recently to check fuel height. I stick my pointer finger in the tank and if I can touch the fuel I'll take off. If not, then I'm going to consider topping off.

It's just an informal way of checking the fuel level without much effort!
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Wait, really? You intentionally dip your finger into lead? That sounds inadvisable.

The survival multitool on my lanyard includes a small mirror, which (combined with a flashlight when necessary) gives me a view into the tanks of a 172. The fuel caps are attached with small chains which, when jiggled, create ripples in the fuel, enhancing its visibility.
 
I'm pretty sure Fuel Hawk makes a calibrated stick for the 172, if not you can calibrate one yourself. Available from a number of pilot stores online including Sporty's. Much better than sticking your finger into the gas. :yes:
 
jspilot said:
I do the same thing on the 172 I fly. I don't take off without checking the fuel. It's impossible to see far down into the tank in a 172 for obvious reasons so, I've started to do a new thing recently to check fuel height. I stick my pointer finger in the tank and if I can touch the fuel I'll take off. If not, then I'm going to consider topping off.

It's just an informal way of checking the fuel level without much effort!
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Here. Much more accurate and you don't have to get avgas on your hands.
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/1175
Also a long range model...
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/1591
 
azure said:
I'm pretty sure Fuel Hawk makes a calibrated stick for the 172, if not you can calibrate one yourself. Available from a number of pilot stores online including Sporty's. Much better than sticking your finger into the gas. :yes:
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Why the manufacturers haven't been forced to come up with a better fuel measuring system is almost criminal. 30 years ago I made my own measuring sticks (wooden paint stirrers or dowels are good) for the 152 and 172 I was teaching in. As azure mentions, there are commercial ones available now and it's worth the expense. Regardless, people will still run their planes out of fuel unfortunately.
 
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