Piper Cherokee 140 With High Engine Time. Worth The Buy?

easik

easik

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easik
Been looking at an entry level aircraft to buy. I recently saw a Cherokee 140 in pretty good shape but the engine time is about 1900 hours. I wanted an aircraft with at least 300-400 hours left on the engine before overhaul. My mission is 50-100 hour a year. But the discounted price on this Cherokee is attractive mainly due to the high engine time.

What's your take? do I pay for that cost now or pay later :D
Also I'm curious; all Piper Cherokee 140 owner/operator, how long have you flown your engine? until 2000 hours TBO or past it?

thanks.
 
The flight school where I spent most of my instructing career was a Piper dealer and had a fleet of 140s. They were routinely run to 2500 hours...but they received regular oil changes, 100-hours, etc.

Bob
 
Buy it now and save up for this in 1-3 years when the current engine barfs.

Assuming interior, exterior, and panel are to your liking.

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Aircraft-Parts/RAM-STCs/Piper-PA28-Upgrade.htm
The New Difference
Lycoming O-320 Package for your Piper PA28-140 or -151
O-320-Engine-Piper-PA28.jpg



The 160 hp
New Difference Package
$37,630

New Lycoming O-320-D3G
New Sensenich Propeller

Exchange Basis:
Engine / Prop Core Charge: $4,500

Sensenich-propeller.jpg
Piper PA-28-140 / -151
• PA-28-140 Replace: 150-hp - E2A / -E3D with 160-hp - D3G
• PA-28-151 Replace: 150-hp -E3D with 160-hp - D3G
• Propeller: Sensenich 74DM6-0-60
• 160-hp - RAM STC SA2706SW (PA-28-140)
• 160-hp - RAM STC SA2969SW (PA-28-151)
New... all the way through!
You know the feeling, the pride, and the comfort of New. Now there’s the value of a RAM NewDifference Package. Not only additional horsepower, but a New engine and New propeller. Yours for the very first time. No time since log books, no yellow tags, no wondering thoughts.The RAM New Difference Package is available for shipment to your Installing FBO for little more than a complete engine and prop overhaul. It’s your turn to fly new.
There is a New Difference.
 
bobmrg said:
The flight school where I spent most of my instructing career was a Piper dealer and had a fleet of 140s. They were routinely run to 2500 hours...but they received regular oil changes, 100-hours, etc.

Bob
Click to expand...
And they also fly many hours (on average) per day and per year. Routine flying usually prolongs the engine’s life vs. one that sits on the ramp for weeks at a time...so that’s the difference.
 
easik said:
Been looking at an entry level aircraft to buy. I recently saw a Cherokee 140 in pretty good shape but the engine time is about 1900 hours. I wanted an aircraft with at least 300-400 hours left on the engine before overhaul. My mission is 50-100 hour a year. But the discounted price on this Cherokee is attractive mainly due to the high engine time.

What's your take? do I pay for that cost now or pay later :D
Also I'm curious; all Piper Cherokee 140 owner/operator, how long have you flown your engine? until 2000 hours TBO or past it?

thanks.
Click to expand...
Some engines don’t make it to TBO, and some last well beyond TBO. It’s just a gamble. Oil Analysis? Making metal? Compressions?
 
Entry level Cherokees come up often enough, just wait for the one you want.
 
I'm not sure what your budget is, but there are some very nice Cherokee's out there in the 28-30k range. We bought ours for 29K and it's beautiful - interior, exterior, panel, etc.
 
Ravioli said:
Buy it now and save up for this in 1-3 years when the current engine barfs.

Assuming interior, exterior, and panel are to your liking.

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Aircraft-Parts/RAM-STCs/Piper-PA28-Upgrade.htm
The New Difference
Lycoming O-320 Package for your Piper PA28-140 or -151
O-320-Engine-Piper-PA28.jpg



The 160 hp
New Difference Package
$37,630

New Lycoming O-320-D3G
New Sensenich Propeller

Exchange Basis:
Engine / Prop Core Charge: $4,500

Sensenich-propeller.jpg
Piper PA-28-140 / -151
• PA-28-140 Replace: 150-hp - E2A / -E3D with 160-hp - D3G
• PA-28-151 Replace: 150-hp -E3D with 160-hp - D3G
• Propeller: Sensenich 74DM6-0-60
• 160-hp - RAM STC SA2706SW (PA-28-140)
• 160-hp - RAM STC SA2969SW (PA-28-151)
New... all the way through!
You know the feeling, the pride, and the comfort of New. Now there’s the value of a RAM NewDifference Package. Not only additional horsepower, but a New engine and New propeller. Yours for the very first time. No time since log books, no yellow tags, no wondering thoughts.The RAM New Difference Package is available for shipment to your Installing FBO for little more than a complete engine and prop overhaul. It’s your turn to fly new.
There is a New Difference.
Click to expand...

The Flight school's 140 has this. Makes a difference taking off and climbing out. Not so much on landing though. :D
 
Really depends on your bank account. If you can buy or finance the airplane and have the cash in a couple years to pay for the engine I would go for it. If not you are better off financing an airplane with a lower time engine to minimize the cash you will have to fork over sooner.
 
Don’t do it if you can’t afford an immediate overhaul. There are those that sell planes at the first sign of overhaul because they can’t or don’t want to afford to do it...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Beat me to it. Whether it's 10 or 100 or 500 hours, there's an overhaul in the near future. Take the price and add 25k to it. Does it still sound like a good price for the aircraft with a zero time engine?

It is unfortunate for sellers of high time aircraft, but when buyers have to do an overhaul shortly after buying, the cost of overhaul makes the total cost of buying way too high to be reasonable.
 
It would only make sense to me if you were planning on keeping this particular aircraft and we're willing and financially able to finance the inevitable overhaul in the near future. There should be a wide choice of mid time Cherokees out there.

Going past TBO is always possible but depends strongly on how the engine was run and treated. A flight school plane run every day at 2000 hours is far different from an engine with 2000 hours over 40 years. The engine you are considering could be a candidate for going past TBO or it could be impending junk.
 
Grum.Man said:
Really depends on your bank account. If you can buy or finance the airplane and have the cash in a couple years to pay for the engine I would go for it. If not you are better off financing an airplane with a lower time engine to minimize the cash you will have to fork over sooner.
Click to expand...
good luck getting a finance for almost TBO engine. tried that route myself once ...
 
easik said:
Been looking at an entry level aircraft to buy. I recently saw a Cherokee 140 in pretty good shape but the engine time is about 1900 hours. I wanted an aircraft with at least 300-400 hours left on the engine before overhaul. My mission is 50-100 hour a year. But the discounted price on this Cherokee is attractive mainly due to the high engine time.

What's your take? do I pay for that cost now or pay later :D
Also I'm curious; all Piper Cherokee 140 owner/operator, how long have you flown your engine? until 2000 hours TBO or past it?

thanks.
Click to expand...

PA28s are dime a dozen, unless it’s a killer deal I would probably pass



Ravioli said:
Buy it now and save up for this in 1-3 years when the current engine barfs.

Assuming interior, exterior, and panel are to your liking.

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Aircraft-Parts/RAM-STCs/Piper-PA28-Upgrade.htm
The New Difference
Lycoming O-320 Package for your Piper PA28-140 or -151
O-320-Engine-Piper-PA28.jpg



The 160 hp
New Difference Package
$37,630

New Lycoming O-320-D3G
New Sensenich Propeller

Exchange Basis:
Engine / Prop Core Charge: $4,500

Sensenich-propeller.jpg
Piper PA-28-140 / -151
• PA-28-140 Replace: 150-hp - E2A / -E3D with 160-hp - D3G
• PA-28-151 Replace: 150-hp -E3D with 160-hp - D3G
• Propeller: Sensenich 74DM6-0-60
• 160-hp - RAM STC SA2706SW (PA-28-140)
• 160-hp - RAM STC SA2969SW (PA-28-151)
New... all the way through!
You know the feeling, the pride, and the comfort of New. Now there’s the value of a RAM NewDifference Package. Not only additional horsepower, but a New engine and New propeller. Yours for the very first time. No time since log books, no yellow tags, no wondering thoughts.The RAM New Difference Package is available for shipment to your Installing FBO for little more than a complete engine and prop overhaul. It’s your turn to fly new.
There is a New Difference.
Click to expand...

Or overhaul it for like half the price and take the rest and put it in the gas tanks, or toss a 430 and AP in or something.

https://www.hotwaircraft.com/no-surprise-pricing.html


Ryanb said:
And they also fly many hours (on average) per day and per year. Routine flying usually prolongs the engine’s life vs. one that sits on the ramp for weeks at a time...so that’s the difference.
Click to expand...

Meh, that’s up there with your house is less likely to get broken into if you lock and unlock and lock your doors with your left hand while saying a Hail Mary
 
easik said:
Been looking at an entry level aircraft to buy. I recently saw a Cherokee 140 in pretty good shape but the engine time is about 1900 hours. I wanted an aircraft with at least 300-400 hours left on the engine before overhaul. My mission is 50-100 hour a year. But the discounted price on this Cherokee is attractive mainly due to the high engine time.

What's your take? do I pay for that cost now or pay later :D
Also I'm curious; all Piper Cherokee 140 owner/operator, how long have you flown your engine? until 2000 hours TBO or past it?

thanks.
Click to expand...

I flew my warrior II 300 hours past TBO in 12 months. Sold it because I needed the higher climb rate, faster cruise and useful load of the arrow when my solo mission became a family mission. By the standards of this board that engine needed an overhaul. I disagree. To each their own.
 
If you buy it make sure you borrow enough for the engine overhaul now. Then it's all financed at once.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I flew my warrior II 300 hours past TBO in 12 months. Sold it because I needed the higher climb rate, faster cruise and useful load of the arrow when my solo mission became a family mission. By the standards of this board that engine needed an overhaul. I disagree. To each their own.
Click to expand...

I’m past TBO on my airplane and hope to get to 3000 hours. The problem is when you buy into an engine that far past overhaul, you have to wonder why the owner is selling it just now....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
If the engine is running well, why would the owner sell it? It's fully depreciated, so any hours beyond TBO are like free hours to them. It's the wrong time to sell an asset, so I'd assume that there's something wrong and they're trying to get rid of if so they don't have to overhaul it. I'd only buy a plane like that if I could afford to plan on overhauling the engine right away, or if I could verify that the engine is in excellent condition.

FWIW, Vref puts the base retail price of a high-time Cherokee 140 at ~$15k, while a mid time one is ~$26k, and values hours on the engine at ~$11/hr. So one with 1500 hrs on the engine would be worth about $21k. Is
 
easik said:
Been looking at an entry level aircraft to buy. I recently saw a Cherokee 140 in pretty good shape but the engine time is about 1900 hours. I wanted an aircraft with at least 300-400 hours left on the engine before overhaul. My mission is 50-100 hour a year. But the discounted price on this Cherokee is attractive mainly due to the high engine time.

What's your take? do I pay for that cost now or pay later :D
Also I'm curious; all Piper Cherokee 140 owner/operator, how long have you flown your engine? until 2000 hours TBO or past it?

thanks.
Click to expand...

Depends on how frequently it has flown. The Cherokee 140 I spend the most time teaching in is currently around 2,300 hours. I've put 1,000 of those on in the last six years and I'm not the only one teaching in it. So, regular use with regular oil changes and attentive upkeep can allow them to go well beyond TBO. On the other hand, my O-360 Lyc in my Mooney was flown often, oil changed regularly, then started making metal at 1,980. Many variables.
 
Eric Gleason said:
If the engine is running well, why would the owner sell it? It's fully depreciated, so any hours beyond TBO are like free hours to them. It's the wrong time to sell an asset, so I'd assume that there's something wrong and they're trying to get rid of if so they don't have to overhaul it. I'd only buy a plane like that if I could afford to plan on overhauling the engine right away, or if I could verify that the engine is in excellent condition.
Click to expand...

Let's be clear. Just because an engine is not in "excellent" condition in your perception, doesn't mean someone is trying to rip you off.

I sold my Warrior II at 2200smoh because I needed to upgrade to an airplane that had a better climb rate than an Apache on one engine, in anticipation of my shift into a family flying mission. That, and I wanted the +20 cruise speed on a miserly +1 GPH increase. What would you have me do? Overhaul the engine, then turn around and sell it to you at an additional down time and +15K losses to me? You want fries with that too? LOL

I could make the counter-argument that a person selling a plane immediately post-overhaul is in fact in the very financial stress you presume the high time engine seller is under. Both sides can play that game.

I unloaded that warrior within 90 days of listing, at a 5K discount. Everybody walked away happy. So it looks like the real world doesn't agree with that whole online tire kicker trope that unless you give me a fresh engine for the price of on the house you're somehow trying to rip me off or get me killed. YMMV.
 
I say pretty much the same thing every time this discussion comes up...

Any engine is a gamble, regardless of how many (or how few) hours are on it. The next hour might be an engine's last. Nearly every aircraft engine that I've overhauled has not made it to TBO hours wise, and I've got two more to do this winter. Both are Lycomings.

The fact that the engine in question has made it to 1900 hours leads me to think it is a good one and likely has a few more hours in it before it gives up. Assuming you fly 50-100 hours annually might buy you 3-5 years before you have problems. During this time you could save money for an overhaul but if it were me I'd want to have a plan for what I'm going to do if I needed to overhaul it sooner.
 
Eric Gleason said:
If the engine is running well, why would the owner sell it? It's fully depreciated, so any hours beyond TBO are like free hours to them. It's the wrong time to sell an asset, so I'd assume that there's something wrong and they're trying to get rid of if so they don't have to overhaul it. I'd only buy a plane like that if I could afford to plan on overhauling the engine right away, or if I could verify that the engine is in excellent condition.

FWIW, Vref puts the base retail price of a high-time Cherokee 140 at ~$15k, while a mid time one is ~$26k, and values hours on the engine at ~$11/hr. So one with 1500 hrs on the engine would be worth about $21k. Is
Click to expand...

Tons of reasons, upgrade, moved, life, who knows

And Im not sure if youre more of a accountant than a pilot, but depreciation and all and "free hours" dont work like that, also for many a plane wont be a asset, plus vref is garbage
 
The advise above is all pretty good. Engine time is only one aspect. I bought a Cherokee with a 600 hour engine, but the guy who did my pre buy missed quite a bit (and I was pretty new to the game). It had had poor maintenance for a while. I bought it for $25k and ended up putting another $25k into it over the next couple of years (two cylinders, but no rebuild and a bunch of other stuff). I loved the plane, but it wasn’t cheap.
 
My experience with shopping is that sellers don't figure run out engines into the price. From the buyer's standpoint, the airplane + overhaul is usually more than even a really great airplane is worth, so there is almost never a reason to buy an engine at TBO. I get why, because if you have an aircraft that might be 40k, then you have to take off 25k for an overhaul, you don't want to say that you have a 15k hull...but that's the way the math works out. Anything over that 15k point makes it a bad buy.

You can guess or wonder about how many more hours the engine has in it, but odds are it won't be that long. Either YOU are going to be the one doing the overhaul or else you are going to be the guy selling the bad engine. Either way, you're buying the problem.
 
Eric Gleason said:
If the engine is running well, why would the owner sell it? It's fully depreciated, so any hours beyond TBO are like free hours to them. It's the wrong time to sell an asset, so I'd assume that there's something wrong and they're trying to get rid of if so they don't have to overhaul it. I'd only buy a plane like that if I could afford to plan on overhauling the engine right away, or if I could verify that the engine is in excellent condition.
Click to expand...

I have to argue with your logic here. If the engine is running fine right now, it’s the perfect time to sell it. If it stops running fine, then it’s the wrong time to sell. How much will he get for a plane that isn’t flying because the engine is showing obvious signs of failure? With your logic, the only options for a plane owner is to keep it forever or fly it until it’s worthless.
 
There is a guy with a bonanza for sale a few hangars down from me. He’s getting up there in years and just has a really hard time getting into the plane these days do to his health. He was preparing to sell the plane when he had a spark plug grenade on him and he sent it off for a IRAN. Unfortunately it was decided that it was best to overhaul the engine.

I believe he would have been money ahead to just scrap the plane, he’s got 40k+ into a 60 bonanza that he can’t seem to sell now with a brand new overhaul for $75,000. Who wants to buy a plane with 10hrs since overhaul. What’s the scrap value of a plane. He has a waas gps and a few other valuable parts.
 
How many planes are out there with the optimal 2 year SMOH, 200 hr engine. And also had the new wiz bang glass panel installed, which of coarse you expect a 50% discount for.

I didn’t see any when I was looking. Most seem to sell when they realize they just aren’t flying enough anymore, or lost their medical. Some just can’t afford it anymore. Why would someone drop a bunch of money into a plane to sell at a discount to the next guy?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Let's be clear. Just because an engine is not in "excellent" condition in your perception, doesn't mean someone is trying to rip you off.
Click to expand...

Which is why I didn't say (or even imply) someone was trying to rip anyone off. ;)

An old plane with a nearly timed out engine is roughly analogous to a 14 year old car with 180,000 miles. You might get some cheap transportation for a while, but pretty soon it's going to need something expensive.
 
Lets see. $15K PA28-140 with 1900 hours. I'm guessing it's the one on Indy Air Sales. It's an all original 1967 version. Less desirable panel in my opinion, given the non-std. layout. Some inop. equipment like the TC I can see that you'll want to rectify. Then, something that hasn't been flown a lot or in a while will almost certainly take some maintenance to get it back in shape once you start flying it regularly.

I looked at this one and decided that even if I could get it for less than asking that I had about $25K+ of bills coming in short order, but you could gamble on buying and reselling after 200 - 300 hours if you're only looking to build time, provided the engine makes it that long. If it works out, then it's a good buy.

If it doesn't, or if you're looking to fix up the plane and keep it a while, you'll be money ahead to just buy a Cherokee with what you want already equipped. That plane with a new engine and working equipment is worth about $30K max I'd say. So, if you drop $20K on a budget overhaul, then another $3-5K in maintenance it's likely to need, you're $10K under water. But if you want a nice, clean, straight air frame to keep a while and can do the work yourself, then it seems like a good deal.
 
I have a 1995 Commander 114B with 1926 TTH. I bought the airplane at 1875 TTH a couple of months ago.

Scan the logs carefully.... this is really the most important part. You will may find at least 1-2 cylinders have been replaced at some point.
On the Pre-Buy:
Bore scope it.
Compression test (obviously)
Oil analysis

As I have been flying this airplane weekly, my routine is:

Change oil every 25 hours.
Cut filter open.
Oil analysis at every change.

I plan to go past TBO by at least 100 hours. That will buy me about 10 months of flying beyond TBO.

Also - invest in a good panel engine analyzer. Sometimes those planes don't have that, but I think it is a "must" in order to safely run a high time engine.
 
GeorgeC said:
Entry level Cherokees come up often enough, just wait for the one you want.
Click to expand...
I've been looking and waiting. Wish a good one would come along that's local to me.
 
easik said:
I've been looking and waiting. Wish a good one would come along that's local to me.
Click to expand...

This is why many airplane purchases happen half a country away :)

If there are Cherokees in your area that look good, it wouldn't hurt much to write letters to the owners saying you might be interested in buying when they're thinking of selling. There are an awful lot of planes sold without making it to the market. I know of a few planes that have been purchased this way.
 
easik said:
I've been looking and waiting. Wish a good one would come along that's local to me.
Click to expand...

Don't worry about local. I bought mine from Phoenix and brought it to TX. First trip to view, second trip to bring her home.
 
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