Piper attacked my fiance

SkyHog

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Everything Offends Me
Piper has had a rough history with bites, he attacked me, bit my father, bit Brianna, and now, he's attacked Brianna, this time badly. Unfortunately, I'm stuck on a train on the way home right now, but I'm headed to the hospital as soon as I make it.

It kills me, but I have to get rid of him now. Any advice on how to do it to minimize the chances of him being put down right away?
 
I'm sorry to hear that, Nick. I don't know what to tell you, but you might want to look at NM's laws. Some states have laws regarding these situations...you'll probably find them in the public safety section....
 
I'm sorry to hear that, Nick. I don't know what to tell you, but you might want to look at NM's laws. Some states have laws regarding these situations...you'll probably find them in the public safety section....

You also might want to look at local regulations (city and county) - those things are often local....
 
It kills me, but I have to get rid of him now. Any advice on how to do it to minimize the chances of him being put down right away?
This sucks, Nick, but you have to face the facts. If you tell the person or organization you give Piper to, that he is a biter, he won't last long.

If you don't tell them that, I suppose you retain some liability if something really bad happens.

-Skip
 
I feel for you, I really do, but "it is what it is" the dog will bite again, it must be put down. It is no longer a matter of if, it is a matter of when it will bite again.
 
I'm very sorry Nick, but they're right - something in that dog cannot be trusted. It absolutely sucks, but it needs to be done.

What if it were a young child?
 
Such dogs end up needing special homes with people who can deal with it.

If you take him to the animal shelter, he'll be put down probably almost instantly, unless New Mexico is different than a lot of other places I've dealt with. Your best bet is to try to find a new owner yourself. It'll be difficult to do, but there are people out there (like me) who aren't afraid of it.

Part of the question I'd have, though, is why did the dog bite and attack. Even dogs with heavily abused pasts that I've dealt with generally have reasons for why these things happen. I know he has a history of it, but what have been the situations surrounding it? I've not come across a dog yet that can't be rehabilitated, but it generally is a matter of training the humans how to act.

Do what you have to do, obviously your family comes first. I would suggest work to find Piper a new home with someone else in your situation.

Most of all, I'm sorry to hear about this. It's a sucky situation. I hope Brianna is alright.
 
Jeez, Nick, that's really tough news. I'm sorry to hear about your fiancee. I hope she's doing ok.

I know how much Piper means to you. I'm no expert in dog behavior, by any stretch of the imagination, but I say don't give up. IIRC, Piper was a rescue dog. If I'm wrong, then I'm totally wrong. If I'm right, then something obviously was going on before he got to you.

You might consider a real, ($$$$), animal trainer before you give up. Not the kind you find at PetSmart, but an honest to goodness expert. At least make some calls and see what you find. Asking questions is free, even if you can't sign them up to help. I would really hate for you to lose your friend for this. Ask around.

Good luck.
 
You might consider a real, ($$$$), animal trainer before you give up. Not the kind you find at PetSmart, but an honest to goodness expert. At least make some calls and see what you find. Asking questions is free, even if you can't sign them up to help. I would really hate for you to lose your friend for this. Ask around.

Animal trainers can often help, but the human behavior will need to be changed as well. Rescue dogs are great dogs, usually the most loving and understand just how good they have it. Unfortunately they can, at times, come with issues depending on how they were treated before. Both my dogs have required some behavior modification, but most of it is how I act with them. My second dog bit me when I first got her. Now all I have to do is look at her with a disapproving face and she'll put her head down. She knows who leads this pack.
 
I hope Brianna get well soon. As for Piper from what I have been reading there is a lot of upheaval in his life. Dogs are pack animals and there are several new "dogs" in his pack and he may think his position is being threatened. It depends on how Alpha dog you are in his pack. He may think he is the Alpha.

Short term you need to isolate the members of the family from him or him from the family. As Ted said he needs a special needs caretaker if you can even find some. Many times dogs that have a history of biting and attacks are required to be put down. Most shelters will not take him with this history. My father-in-law's dogs would bite and nip. When we had to take the dog to a shelter after his death no one in the Las Vegas area would take him because of that. We ended up finding a friend who was willing to deal with the dog as he had met the dog before and felt he could deal with it.
 
Where's Cesar when you really need him?

I trained bird dogs for a long time, and spent a fair amount of time working with the top trainers and reading their stuff. Fortunately, most bird dogs aren't biters, so I never had to deal with the problem other than an occasional nip when they were excited to go hunting.

My take from working with the guys who seemed most capable of correcting it was that some dogs are just psycho's and you never know what they will do next. After a while, sometimes too long, they must be put down. Most biting, however, can be traced to some specific behavior (threats, shyness, food, territory, and all of the energy stuff Cesar talks about on his show.) I hope you find a workable solution, and that Brianna didn't get chewed too badly. Tough deal.
 
Nick I think you have a new dog in the house following what Scott said this could be a reason Piper is acting out. Then again he has a history. This woman seems to work with difficult dogs. She is in NY but perhaps she has resources near you. Perhaps you could fly him up to a no kill shelter state. www.dingogirl.com
 
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Brianna is ok. Piper bites because I'm a bad dog owner. Luckily, Albuquerque shelters are no kill except in cases of unadoptability.

:(
 
Hey Nick, glad to hear Brianna is ok. That's the most important thing here.
Also, don't be so hard on yourself. All of us could have raised our critters better but that doesn't mean we're bad owners. Good luck with what ever decision both of you make.
 
We went through this with TJ last winter. Based on what you said in the post above, Piper has pain you can't remove any way than by letting him sleep, and it's not anything to do with your performance as an owner. The "behavior modification" programs alluded to by others are quite brutal, and nothing you'd want a dog you love to endure. A quick, painless, and peaceful end with your face and hands the last things he sees and feels is the kindest thing you can for him at this point.
 
We went through this with TJ last winter. Based on what you said in the post above, Piper has pain you can't remove any way than by letting him sleep, and it's not anything to do with your performance as an owner. The "behavior modification" programs alluded to by others are quite brutal, and nothing you'd want a dog you love to endure. A quick, painless, and peaceful end with your face and hands the last things he sees and feels is the kindest thing you can for him at this point.

Thanks Ron. Your post actually made me tear up a little bit, but I appreciate your words, they're well taken.

Unfortunately, apparently when Albuquerque went the way of no-kill, they also removed the ability for late night drop offs, so Piper will get to stay with us for one more evening.
 
Sorry to hear that Nick. At some point, you just have to part ways, and this is that point.
 
Piper is lying at my feet tonight as I type this, probably for the last time. Tomorrow morning, it has been decided 100% that he is going to the pound because "he has behavior issues that someone else would be better equipped to control."

That way, he has known issues, the next owner will probably be a very good dog owner to take him on, and he won't be considered "unadoptable" and he will not be euthanized immediately. He's cute, so I think he has a shot at being adopted, and since he's not a puppy, I suspect he'll probably be adopted by a rescuer.
 
BTW, Piper was a pound puppy. I adopted him on the last day before he was euthanized as at the time, Albuquerque had a 14 day (IIRC) period of adoption before euthanization occurred. He was in a kennel with his brothers, sisters, and mother, so I presume he was either born in the shelter, or the entire family was dropped off together.

As a puppy, I let Piper do cute things that I didn't realize were domination things. Richard saw the way I was with him, and he even pointed it out to me before we went to 6Y9, but I disagreed (FWIW, Richard is pretty good with dogs).

Fast forward a year or so, and Piper got ahold of a hotdog wrapper when I was living with my parents. My dad reached under the table that Piper was lying under to grab the wrapper, and Piper snapped at him and caught him on the hand. I understood that it was my fault that he got the garbage in the first place by leaving it in a location he could get it from.

About 3 or 4 days later, Piper was chewing on a Mammoth Bone and I walked too closely. He snapped at me, and I decided I needed to take control. I reached down again and tried to take his Mammoth Bone away and he attacked me, biting my arm about 5 times before I alpha rolled him to regain control over the situation. In the fray, I was bit a bunch more times, and I had successfully beaten down my dog (the only time I've ever physically beat him in his entire life).

At that point, I decided it was time to take back Alpha from Piper. I controlled his eating, I controlled his toys and playtime. He earned everything he got from me. This is also the time I stopped letting him sleep in my bed. He became much better behaved and I thought the problem was fixed.

In the next year or two, I continued the good habits, and let a few slip (I let him sleep on the bed, but only at my feet). I started controlling who entered or left the room first (always me), but my roommate refused to help and said I was being too controlling of the dog.

When Brianna and I started dating, he did not respect her. He wouldn't listen to her, and he was constantly challenging her for pack position. He still listened to me, but never to her. She started controlling everything he did and I sat back and let it happen. She controlled when he ate, she controlled his toys, and she controlled when and how he could come and go from each room, but he never really caught on that she was boss. She successfully taught him some new tricks (roll over, for one, which I never could get him to do), but she usually had to tell him multiple times to do things I could get him to do with one command.

After we moved into our house together, my father and I were bringing in a new patio table, and Brianna was holding Piper back from interfering with us (because he wouldn't listen to her stay command). He snapped and bit her on the arm, but did not break the skin. At this point, I figured that I had failed him and was ready to put him up for adoption at the shelter, but Brianna convinced me not to (she said she was afraid I'd hold it against her, but I don't think I would have).

She stepped up her domination, using the same tactics I used to gain Alpha, but he still refused to submit.

We got Otto last weekend. Piper seemed to love him at first, playing and rolling around with him. There were some domination struggles, and Piper kept losing, which I thought was humorous. Then Otto tried to take a toy from Piper's mouth, and Piper snapped, biting Otto on the ear (puncturing through the ear). Otto learned not to fight with Piper, and Piper seemed to be respectful of Otto at this point.

Then today. Brianna let the two dogs out back to do their business, and Piper jumped the fence (how, I'm not sure, but he always finds a way). She found him sitting out front and called him to her. He would not come to her when she called him, but let her approach him. She grabbed him by the harness and walked him into the house. She told him to lie down, and he wouldn't listen to her. She put him in his room (I never really successfully crated Piper, but I was able to train him to go to a room on command), and tried to close the door. When she reached into his room to close the door, he latched onto her arm and started trying to attack her. She pushed him away with her other arm, and he bit her other arm twice. She finally kicked him away from her and slammed the door shut, placed Otto into his crate (we're crate training him), and immediately headed to the hospital. At this point, she thought he had broken her hand and punctured all the way through.

Luckily, he had only gouged out a large chunk of skin on her arm, and given her a few puncture wounds on her other hand, but no broken bones. Lots of bruises, and a broken spirit (she is still trying to convince me not to give him away), but she's ok.

Just typing that, I can see a lot of mistakes I made. We're not sure what we're going to do about Otto, but whatever it is, I want to decide while he's still a very young pup. Part of me wants to say "Lets do it right this time," but the other part says "You don't need to **** up another dog's life."

Thank you for listening. BTW, throw one more step in there - after we moved in together, Piper had to learn to deal with cats too (he never did learn, and right now, we keep her cats in the master bedroom, and he gets the house).
 
Nick, I'm really sorry. I can hear the pain in your words. :nonod:
 
If you can learn to fly you can learn to be an effective and intelligent dog owner.

If you've got some cash to spare I know a trainer who will show you how to do it.
 
I'm glad Brianna is okay.

Nick, I think you're being a little too hard on yourself. When I was in undergrad school, one of the many part-time jobs I had to make ends meet (the VA paid my tuition, but nothing else) was working for/as a dog trainer. I worked for an old guy who specialized in canine behavior problems, and I usually did the more routine and easier work of training new puppies who had no known issues.

Some dogs, however, are genetic alphas. As puppies, these dogs are often purchased or adopted by owners who think their antics are "cute," not knowing that what they're looking at is alpha behavior. Even if they're well-trained as pups, as adults they often refuse to submit to humans other than the ones who were part of their packs when they were puppies.

You have to understand that canines have a very definite linear hierarchy. The genetic alpha, having been ousted from that position, often assumes the role of "pack protector." They consider all newcomers potential threats to the pack. They still take their lead from Alpha; but in Alpha's absence, they re-take the alpha role and refuse to submit to newcomers.

It doesn't sound like there was much else you could have done for Piper. Alpha-rolling a dog takes a lot of guts and usually results in at least some injuries to the handler -- sometimes quite serious ones -- even when the handler has been trained to do it properly. You also used good conditioning methods and markers; and even if you weren't a hundred percent consistent, most dogs won't attempt to re-take alpha because of an occasional extra unearned privilege.

Also, dogs just seem to respond better to certain people for reasons we don't quite understand, but which probably have something to do with pheromones.

Even before I started working with dogs, they always liked me. Actually, most animals like me. When I lived in the country for a couple of years "finding myself" (we're talking about the real sticks, by the way: My nearest human neighbors were more than a mile away), all manner of wildlife would come around to hang out with me while I was sitting on the porch at night, sometimes staying for hours and chatting. But they rarely would come if I had human guests. They weren't "friendly animals." They just seemed to like me.

(That's the main reason I don't hunt any more, incidentally. There's something decidedly un-sportsmanlike about shooting an animal who just walks up to you as if you were an an old friend.)

I still deal with a lot of dogs because I still do some residential tech support work. I do the usual greeting ritual (assume a confident but neutral posture, invite the dog to do a hand sniff, address it by name, explain why I am there [they understand more than most people give them credit for], etc.) and I'm always accepted pretty much immediately, even by dogs who have a history of biting or nipping.

I could tell some interesting stories, as some of my relationships with clients' dogs have spanned many years (and multiple dogs). But this is not the time. My point is that not only are some dogs genetic alphas, but some people seem to exude pheromones to which dogs respond more favorably, making the task of establishing initial acceptance and eventual dominance much easier. I suspect your fiance probably doesn't have that innate "thing," whatever it is, making it less likely that an adult genetic alpha would readily accept, much less submit to her.

So stop being so hard on yourself. You're not a "bad dog owner." You did most things right; and a dog whose temperament was less inherently alpha and whose background was more favorable would have done just fine. You just wound up in a difficult situation with a difficult dog, and you did a lot more (and did it better) than most people would have done for Piper. Nor did Brianna fail. She walked into a complex situation with roots in an existing power struggle, natural canine survival instincts, and fierce pack loyalty.

You did everything you could. Sadly, though, sometimes these things don't work out, despite our best efforts. But again, I think you did everything you could.

-Rich
 
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Some dogs are easier than others to deal with. Honestly, the biggest part of it is training the humans.

I would be very surprised if Piper is truly incapable of getting fixed. Something about you tells me that you can fall into alpha when you put your mind to it without much work. Brianna might need some more training. On my animal transports, normally all I have to do is look at the dogs (and sometimes "bark") and they just follow my lead. I've not come across a dog yet that truly is unfixable. You're being too hard on yourself, but with behavior modification on your and Brianna's parts, there's no reason why you can't keep Piper. I've got an alpha (my Akita) and a wanna-be alpha (my Rottweiler). They do just fine.

Nick, do what you have to do, and I can't tell you what that is.
 
Just typing that, I can see a lot of mistakes I made.

Welcome to the club. Wait 'til you have older kids and look back...

We're not sure what we're going to do about Otto, but whatever it is, I want to decide while he's still a very young pup. Part of me wants to say "Lets do it right this time," but the other part says "You don't need to **** up another dog's life."

I wouldn't assume that. Every dog is different. Piper sounds like a very difficult dog. Otto is likely to be a whole different animal. Don't assume failure. You clearly put in a lot more effort than most people.
 
I've just deleted two posts pending MC review (and one quoting one of them). Please do not make any more politically charged posts outside SZ. If you want to talk about capital punishment or the morality of what we eat, start a thread there.
 
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I've just deleted two posts pending MC review (and one quoting one of them). Please do not make any more politically charged posts outside SZ. If you want to talk about capital punishment or the morality of what we eat, start a thread there.

Ron, thanks for not only saying that the posts were deleted, but giving some specifics of what content was under review--helps in knowing what went away, and why.
 
We had a somewhat similar, though not as 'violent', reaction from the dogs after Rachel and I got married. Moses had lived with me for about 6 months before Rachel moved in, and I had achieved Alpha status with him early - mostly through leash training, and then electronic collar training. Moses was pretty good, he would sit and stay and I could walk across the yard and he wouldn't move until I told him to and then he would stop in mid-stride if I told him to, so I knew that he knew the commands. Unfortunately the would 'forget' commands when Rachel was delivering them. Because I had transitioned the leash training to e-collar training, I was able to put the e-collar on and stand out of sight when Rachel was giving commands. If he didn't listen I would 'bump' him with the collar (on a VERY low intensity). It didn't take him long at all to realize that her commands meant the same as mine.

I also had to train Rachel a bit in the wording of her commands. She was used to dealing with kids, where you talk to them like people and you can use multiple commands to get the same results. With dogs, you have to be concise with your commands. "Moses, sit." works, but "Moses, come on boy, sit down buddy.." doesn't.

As far as e-collars go, the key to their effectiveness is leash training them before introducing 'e' from the e-collar. It is very easy to ruin a dog by being lazy and trying to 'hurt' them into submission. The point of the e-collar is to provide a 'remote' feeling that to relates to the tug of the collar.

Really sorry to hear about your situation, Nick. I hope everything works out for the best.
 
As far as e-collars go, the key to their effectiveness is leash training them before introducing 'e' from the e-collar. .
It has also been my experience that when leash training them to make sure you use a choker collar. Dogs learn that they are not top dog by the top dog grabbing and biting their necks. The choker collar gives them that experience.

A side note about rolling and necks. I had a friends dog that I was dog sitting get a little aggressive with me. It was a black lab, I had no collar on him at the time so when he became aggressive I actually pushed him to the ground, forced him on his back and then bite him on the neck. He was my 'beyatch' after that!! He never got aggressive with me again and we became great friends for many years. My friend said that I was the only one he ever treated with as much respect as he treated her. When his time came many years later it was me who was with him in the final moments too. He was a great dog.
 
I'm a believer in energy, aura, karma, whatever you want to call the subtle cues that all living beings project about themselves and their place in the universe. Works in dogs and in horses, and sometimes, no matter how much time and work you put in, the relationship just isn't meant to be.
It's tough, but you are doing the right thing in recognizing its time to move on. There's another soul out there who'll be a better fit, for both you and Piper.
 
I took Piper to the Animal Shelter and surrendered him. It was a simple matter of filling out paperwork, saying goodbye and hearing the guy say "Those problems sound like owner problems, not dog problems."

The guy also said "He's a beautiful dog, we should have no problem adopting him out."

Godspeed Piper.
 
I took Piper to the Animal Shelter and surrendered him. It was a simple matter of filling out paperwork, saying goodbye and hearing the guy say "Those problems sound like owner problems, not dog problems."

The guy also said "He's a beautiful dog, we should have no problem adopting him out."

Godspeed Piper.

Sorry Nick, I know it hurts. :(
 
Years ago I had just purchased a new home in a decent area of town, it was back when I was being married. Anyway, a few days after we had moved in, and while I was at work, the neighbors full size poodle, O'Mally, decided to come over and investigate the new people on his block.

He walked through the house like he owned it, all the while growling at my then wife. He went into the baby's room, she was about two months old at the time, my wife was afraid to get too close as the dog did not seem to like her at all. Then O'Mally chased her out of the room completely, and would not her in, or near the baby.

After several hours of this standoff, a crowd had formed & the cops were waiting for animal control, O'Mally's owner came home and solved the problem. Apparently O'Mally had decided my soon to be ex wife, was an unfit mother. About a year later, the judge disagreed with O'Mally's esteemed opinion, and awarded the kids to my now, ex wife.

As it turned out, O'Mally's opinion was correct after all.

John
 
Years ago I had just purchased a new home in a decent area of town, it was back when I was being married. Anyway, a few days after we had moved in, and while I was at work, the neighbors full size poodle, O'Mally, decided to come over and investigate the new people on his block.

He walked through the house like he owned it, all the while growling at my then wife. He went into the baby's room, she was about two months old at the time, my wife was afraid to get too close as the dog did not seem to like her at all. Then O'Mally chased her out of the room completely, and would not her in, or near the baby.

After several hours of this standoff, a crowd had formed & the cops were waiting for animal control, O'Mally's owner came home and solved the problem. Apparently O'Mally had decided my soon to be ex wife, was an unfit mother. About a year later, the judge disagreed with O'Mally's esteemed opinion, and awarded the kids to my now, ex wife.

As it turned out, O'Mally's opinion was correct after all.

John

Wow. Just wow. Amazing how some people can't handle a dog.
 
There is nothing quite so sad as a gay guy trying to game a group of straight guys. My first ignore list candidate on this forum. What a sorry jerk.

John


You or him?
 
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