Piper Arrow at tie down with dead battery...how to charge?

maduro

maduro

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Maduro
Ok, here is a head scratcher. My Arrow is parked at a tie down and the battery died(yeup, the master was left on). I can get a Piper external power supply at Aircraft Spruce but I don't have AC power source near by. The Arrow came with an external power cable with aligator clips.....can I connect it directly to a car battery and connect to the airplane to charge the battery? What are my options to get her juiced up again? Thanx in advanced.
 
maduro said:
Ok, here is a head scratcher. My Arrow is parked at a tie down and the battery died(yeup, the master was left on). I can get a Piper external power supply at Aircraft Spruce but I don't have AC power source near by. The Arrow came with an external power cable with aligator clips.....can I connect it directly to a car battery and connect to the airplane to charge the battery? What are my options to get her juiced up again? Thanx in advanced.
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Not a mechanic, but my PA28-181 (12v system) calls for connecting that plug to a 12v source with the master turned off for the jump start. Once started , disconnect that external connection. You should be able to then turn on Master and Alt switch, if split, and charge up your battery using your aircraft charging system, if that battery is not completely dead. Obviously, don’t do this at night so as to minimize electrical load. You should probably fly for a while to replenish that battery, if it has not been permanently damaged. And carry a portable radio, just in case.
 
If you don't want to take out the battery, this would be a great time to get one of those 1000w Honda generators that you've probably always wanted anyway.
 
if it's like my Archer, the battery box will be behind the cover in the back of the baggage area. 4 quarter turn fasteners hold the cover on the battery box. If the battery leads aren't color coded, take a picture showing the + and - so you don't get them mixed up when replacing. Now, you can either take it home and attempt to charge it using a trickle charger and hope.... or just buy a new one.

You are allowed to change batteries as an owner, this doesn't require an A&P. If you've done a car battery before it's basically the same thing just a little different.
 
Oh the other option, hypothetically speaking of course and assuming this is a 12v system....

A person could pull a car around to the baggage door, run jumper cables through the baggage door to the battery with the car on the other end and jump start it. Master on, alternator and everything else OFF for starting. Have a second person disconnect the jumper cables and button up the baggage compartment, back off the car and fly home.

IDK if this is wise, approved, or whatever but I have more than an inkling it will in fact work.
 
cowman said:
if it's like my Archer, the battery box will be behind the cover in the back of the baggage area. 4 quarter turn fasteners hold the cover on the battery box. If the battery leads aren't color coded, take a picture showing the + and - so you don't get them mixed up when replacing. Now, you can either take it home and attempt to charge it using a trickle charger and hope.... or just buy a new one.

You are allowed to change batteries as an owner, this doesn't require an A&P. If you've done a car battery before it's basically the same thing just a little different.
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Thanks for this....im glad I don't have to use an A&P. I'll take the battery home and trickle charge it and see if it brings it back to life. I'll monitor the voltage and see if it holds for a couple days. If it drops, time for a new battery. Thanx guys, your comments were awesome!
 
maduro said:
Thanks for this....im glad I don't have to use an A&P. I'll take the battery home and trickle charge it and see if it brings it back to life. I'll monitor the voltage and see if it holds for a couple days. If it drops, time for a new battery. Thanx guys, your comments were awesome!
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Don't do that. It'll permanently reduce your battery's capacity. You need a charger that will output at least 10 amps to restore it to a full charge.
 
Hand prop it. Only if you know what you're doing.
 
In the end, you’ve damage the battery. So even if you can get it back up for a little while, it won’t last. I would just buy a new battery. And don’t leave the master on again. Voice of experience.
 
12v, accessible? I’d leave the battery in place, slow charge it overnight.

As to the battery being ruined or damaged, I’d charge it up & go from there, try it out. Make of battery? Years in use?

I think most owners should have a ‘pigtail’ hooked to the battery for periodic ‘tender’ top offs.

With my assortment of lights, I have an older red beacon on its own switch. I leave that switch on all the time, making it somewhat evident should I leave the master on once parked or out of the plane.
 
Topic drift here, but I read on the Concord battery website not to use Battery Tender brand trickle chargers. Do you all follow this suggestion?

5864EA3A-EAF9-4A0A-A5E1-BFD0052CA4E3.jpeg EAC5A4F9-E8E4-4F0B-9219-BEE56E3AAA6F.jpeg
 
Get a an AIRCRAFT Battery Minder for the type of battery you have.

If no power at the airplane, you can use a small generator to run it. Even 10 amps at 28 volts is only 280 watts.
 
sourdough44 said:
With my assortment of lights, I have an older red beacon on its own switch. I leave that switch on all the time, making it somewhat evident should I leave the master on once parked or out of the plane.
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Same - but with LED strobe lights. Always left on. Hard to miss. Blatantly obvious if power is accidentally left on.
 
I agree with the above. I leave my beacon light on all the time so if I forget the master the beacon is hard to miss.
Same with my electric tug, I leave the headlite on all the time as it acts as a pilot light and would be noticeable as I close the hangar door when I am leaving.
 
I've jumped the Navion off car cables. Note that if you jump it off the APU plug (which is after the battery contactor) and the battery is completely flat it will still be dead when you get to your destination. (Someday I'm going to put a small fuse and a push button in to close the contactor as an option).

Technically, if you're in a hangar you're not supposed to charge the battery inside the aircraft.
 
maduro said:
I'll take the battery home and trickle charge it and see if it brings it back to life.
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If you're serious on saving your battery get the service manual for your specific brand/model and follow the instructions to recharge the battery. Not all battery chargers are equal and a trickle charger will not get you there. Plus most vehicle chargers can and do cause more damage to aircraft batteries. If your battery achieves a full charge per the OEM manual, then perform a capacity check per the manual which will tell you the overall status/health of the battery. The longer you wait to properly recharge the battery will determine the extent of permanent damage done to the battery.
texasclouds said:
Do you all follow this suggestion?
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FYI: if you prefer to get 7+ years out of your battery its a good place to start in addition to ensuring your aircraft electrical system is up to spec.
 
Definitely remove the battery and charge it properly using an appropriate smart charger. AGM and flooded cell batteries have slightly different charging requirements. AGM batteries (like Concorde) are intolerant of being in a discharged state for more than 24 hours or so. If you catch your flat battery early, simply recharging it properly should largely restore it. If it has been longer than 24 hours, it may not be fully recoverable, but may still be legal (e.g. pass a capacity test) if properly reconditioned. Flooded cell batteries are a little more tolerant of being fully discharged, but the earlier you restore the charged state the better. Using the aircraft alternator to recharge a dead battery is not an ideal way to restore it. You really want to do a slower, constant current charge. Using the alternator to fully recharge a battery is like using a sledgehammer to drive a nail. A proper charger will take several hours to bring back the charge without overcharging the battery.
 
The external power port on my '69 Arrow, and other years as far as I can tell, CANNOT be used to charge the battery. It only provides a way to energize the main bus DOWNSTREAM of the battery. It is useful for "jump starting" or running the avionics, etc. but NOT to charge the battery. Check the electrical schematic for your year to see what I mean.
 
flyingron said:
Technically, if you're in a hangar you're not supposed to charge the battery inside the aircraft.
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According to WHOM?????? That is not a reg. Maybe an airport policy.
 
I came here just to see if anyone yet pointed out that the external power port isn’t used for this. Someone has already. I shall lurk elsewhere.
 
cowman said:
Oh the other option, hypothetically speaking of course and assuming this is a 12v system....

A person could pull a car around to the baggage door, run jumper cables through the baggage door to the battery with the car on the other end and jump start it. Master on, alternator and everything else OFF for starting. Have a second person disconnect the jumper cables and button up the baggage compartment, back off the car and fly home.

IDK if this is wise, approved, or whatever but I have more than an inkling it will in fact work.
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I've done it many, many, times. Works fine to get it started and moved somewhere with power
 
ktup-flyer said:
I've done it many, many, times. Works fine to get it started and moved somewhere with power
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With new small Jump start boxes this can be even simpler. On a number of my vehicles I have put a connector to a matching connector on my jump start box, so I just plug the jump box in and don't have mess with clamps or opening the battery compartment.
Might take some convincing to get your mechanic to allow this, even then might be difficult to do on a certified airplane.

Brian
 
brcase said:
even then might be difficult to do on a certified airplane.
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FYI: solely up to the mechanic. No issues on a TC aircraft. Have installed a number of battery pigtails that provide easy connections for boost start or battery charging or provide both options on same pigtail. Minor alteration and just need to size the wire properly for boost starts.
 
flyingron said:
Technically, if you're in a hangar you're not supposed to charge the battery inside the aircraft.
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Local or national rule? Nothing in my lease agreement prevents this, not under MCL 259 (AERONAUTICS CODE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN)
 
flyingron said:
Technically, if you're in a hangar you're not supposed to charge the battery inside the aircraft.
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Well, technically, if your aircraft engine is on while still in the hangar, and your Alt switch is on, aren’t you charging your battery in that location?
 
I don't run the engine inside the hangar, it blows everything all over the place. But anyhow the code is pretty clear: Aircraft batteries shall not be charged where installed in an aircraft located inside or partially inside a hangar.
 
flyingron said:
I don't run the engine inside the hangar, it blows everything all over the place. But anyhow the code is pretty clear: Aircraft batteries shall not be charged where installed in an aircraft located inside or partially inside a hangar.
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What code?

Some code about battery charging in NC, or your airport HOA has no jurisdiction over 49 other states or anyone else except your HOA.
 
flyingron said:
I don't run the engine inside the hangar, it blows everything all over the place.
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How do you know? lol

I have never started my plane either in the hangar, I can't imagine what a mess it would make. Plus I bet the airport wouldn't like it?

Reminds of never in 15 years did we ever start a dragster up in the shop because the zoomie exhaust headers would destroy the shop.

Only about 3 times in 15 years did we start it outside in front of the shop all the rest of the times it was first started at the race track. The engine was rebuilt after every run and before every race.

One of those three times the mag was in wrong and it beltched fire out of the exhaust which made it into the race shop and caused a small fire even though the dragster was outside in front of the shop!!

MVC-759S-1.jpg
 
Because it gets messy enough if I fire it up tailed in on the ramp right in front of the open door.
 
flyingron said:
Because it gets messy enough if I fire it up tailed in on the ramp right in front of the open door.
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Good point!

Back on topic,
Like said already I have had much better luck with a regular old hi amperage charger to to first hit a dead battery with. Verses ***** footing around with "triggle" charger. lol

Sooner the better to get the big charger on it. At least long enough to get it back alive. Then you can use a aviation charger. Then like said a capacity test needs to be done.

. Start with 10 amps and maybe more. There are 2 different chargers, use the right one after you get it going from dead.
 
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EdFred said:
What code?

Some code about battery charging in NC, or your airport HOA has no jurisdiction over 49 other states or anyone else except your HOA.
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National Electrical Code. I has nothing whatsoever to do with the HOA and everythig to do with the law in 46 states on a statewide basis and even in those four states (AZ, MO, MS, and IL) many local authorities have adopted it.
 
flyingron said:
National Electrical Code. I has nothing whatsoever to do with the HOA and everythig to do with the law in 46 states on a statewide basis and even in those four states (AZ, MO, MS, and IL) many local authorities have adopted it.
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Citation? All I can find is EV charging
 
Gary Ward said:
Start with 10 amps and maybe more. There are 2 different chargers, use the right one after you get it going from dead.
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The optimum maximum charge rate is usually 0.1-0.3 C where C is the battery capacity in Ah. So for, say, an RG-25, 10 amps constant current might be a little high, and if left on too long can seriously damage the battery. The right smart charger should be able to do this properly at a lower charge rate, and taper voltage when closing in on full capacity to prevent excessive out-gassing and evaporation of electrolyte (over-charging). If a battery won't accept charge, you can always "trick" a smart charger by hooking up another battery in parallel until the dead battery starts accepting charge at the appropriate rate. I've done this many times to rescue an otherwise ruined lead-acid battery, aviation or otherwise.
 
EdFred said:
Citation? All I can find is EV charging
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513.10 Special Equipment.
(A) Aircraft Electrical Systems.

(2) Aircraft Batteries.

Aircraft batteries shall not be charged where installed in an aircraft located inside or partially inside a hangar.​
 
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