Pilot manners question?

kimberlyanne546

kimberlyanne546

Final Approach
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Display name:
Kimberly
I was in a plane recently, and the ball was WAY off center. As far as it could go.

Only with a low hour pilot or close friend would I say quietly "right rudder" on the intercom since most want a sterile cockpit but I've heard downwind / base / final that ball needs to be in the middle.

I can't give details, since I don't know this person or if they read POA. All I can say is that I didn't feel it was "nice" to say anything.

Should I have said something? I was really trying to do the right thing. I have very few hours and this person was older, more experienced, and owned their own plane.
 
I would not hesitate to bring it up immediately. I trust you are capable to identifying an intentional slip (when ball is naturally off the scale).
 
One way to deal with this is to ask an innocuous question that causes them to look at the ball and let them take it from there.
If you are riding in the airplane, you have a vested interest in it being flown in a coordinated manner, and at a certain point it is good sense to ask directly.
Remember when you look, you may have some parallax such that the ball looks off to you but centered to the person looking directly at the instrument.
 
If I'm a little high on final, or if there's a crosswind, you'll see the ball way off center as I use a little bit (or sometimes a lot) of slip.
 
"This airplane sure flies pretty nice in a slip."
 
Screw it, I didn't die, I'll explain. It was my third 1-hour flight of the day. Third pilot of the day. All three I'd pretty much been an observer, sitting right seat, completely silent (yes, I know, hard to believe). The amount of concentration it takes to fly in 4 ship formation on takeoff and landing, doing overhead breaks, low passes, and the like DEMANDS you look only out of the window and not at your instruments. I never saw one of the three look. The third pilot / plane was the only one with the ball this far out.

Does knowing my story change your comments?
 
I usually make a joke about them wasting fuel by flying sideways....Just depends on the pilots personality. Some enjoy humor, other want it straight and to the point , etc. Either way I'll say something - but that's what they're paying me for.

With enough time you'll just "feel" it.
 
It sounds like you are describing an experienced pilot, however flying totally uncoordinated is not a trait found in an experienced pilot.
 
I would have said stop being a sloppy pilot. Sorry but there is no room for being polite on matters that can cost you your life. That ball on the outside could end up as a spin, and end you up as a smoking hole, I used to feel intimidated saying that stuff as a low time pilot, now I don't care who I am with.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Screw it, I didn't die, I'll explain. It was my third 1-hour flight of the day. Third pilot of the day. All three I'd pretty much been an observer, sitting right seat, completely silent (yes, I know, hard to believe). The amount of concentration it takes to fly in 4 ship formation on takeoff and landing, doing overhead breaks, low passes, and the like DEMANDS you look only out of the window and not at your instruments. I never saw one of the three look. The third pilot / plane was the only one with the ball this far out.

Does knowing my story change your comments?
Click to expand...

Reading that much, all I gotta say is, it's Paul Harvey time ... so come on with "the rest of the story". (and pics!!!!!)
 
PBristolJr said:
It sounds like you are describing an experienced pilot, however flying totally uncoordinated is not a trait found in an experienced pilot.
Click to expand...

Right, and one of the reasons I bring it up is because it was my THIRD flight (identical manuevers) of the day, and my THIRD pilot. This was the only one out of three who did anything of the sort. To be fair, though, the first two (I think) have been doing this thing for years. Not sure how long my pilot had been doing it.
 
I also felt like I shouldn't say anything, since it was a complicated manuever and not the time to speak, so close to the ground. In addition, everyone had been really nice and let me come along, free of charge, even flying their plane (just for a moment, but still I got to fly how cool is that).
 
in your case I would say "Wow Ed do you really have a license to fly this thing??"
 
I would probably glance at the airspeed indicator next. If the aircraft was anywhere near it's stall speed, then yes, I'd say something along the lines others have mentioned. If not, well it isn't up to me to make everyone a proficient pilot.

I come in high and use slips to land all the time (despite the opinion of certain posters that my airplane can't slip worth a damn) so you would tend to see that with me more than other pilots. But my speed doesn't get anywhere near stalling speed while I do it.

Damn good question for an imaginary person.





























































Boy, ain't I a stinker!
 
Just yell, "Help, help, I'm being repressed!"
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I also felt like I shouldn't say anything, since it was a complicated manuever and not the time to speak, so close to the ground. In addition, everyone had been really nice and let me come along, free of charge, even flying their plane (just for a moment, but still I got to fly how cool is that).
Click to expand...

You are too soft on pilots with regard to no talking, and not saying things. Pilots should be able to multitask, and especially when it comes to safety I won't wait until its convenient to them. What was the maneuver that was so complicated?
 
I am not imaginary. And unless Ed owns a Cirrus, that other comment does not apply. Thanks for the reminder about airspeed, though. As mentioned it was a giant turn to bleed off speed, so we were going pretty fast.
 
tonycondon said:
in your case I would say "Wow Ed do you really have a license to fly this thing??"
Click to expand...

BTW I think I heard your voice (and Ron's) on CFI podcast. Bill Williams showed me how to add podcasts to my phone yesterday. Oh and he was awesome with all his helpful tips and gave me a fist bump in my 172 for my kick butt landings yesterday. Yay POAers.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I am not imaginary. And unless Ed owns a Cirrus, that other comment does not apply. Thanks for the reminder about airspeed, though. As mentioned it was a giant turn to bleed off speed, so we were going pretty fast.
Click to expand...

Of course you're not, I just couldn't resist. I meant the part about the good question though.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
BTW I think I heard your voice (and Ron's) on CFI podcast. Bill Williams showed me how to add podcasts to my phone yesterday. Oh and he was awesome with all his helpful tips and gave me a fist bump in my 172 for my kick butt landings yesterday. Yay POAers.
Click to expand...

most likely, those were fun.
 
Inverted said:
You are too soft on pilots with regard to no talking, and not saying things. Pilots should be able to multitask, and especially when it comes to safety I won't wait until its convenient to them. What was the maneuver that was so complicated?
Click to expand...

Deducing from other posts it was a run of the mill formation flight. Four-ship. Which chalk the crooked-man was, don't know.
 
Ohhhh Kim, totally different scenario I am sorry. I know who you are talking about as I know all of them. Formation can be a bit different. I am sorry for jumping to conclusions. In formation, especially in turns, it is pretty common to have to do that to get back into position.

And if you are adding podcasts make sure you add InvertedCast!
 
Inverted said:
You are too soft on pilots with regard to no talking, and not saying things. Pilots should be able to multitask, and especially when it comes to safety I won't wait until its convenient to them. What was the maneuver that was so complicated?
Click to expand...

Sorry, overhead break. I guess it isn't complicated but at the briefings they had brought up issues so I know it was hard for this pilot - one of the reasons is the others were Beechcraft (gear up / gear down affects airspeed). His was more "basic" with fixed gear and no prop knob etc so in formation all that was good but in the airport / landing stuff there were struggles.
 
Inverted said:
Ohhhh Kim, totally different scenario I am sorry. I know who you are talking about as I know all of them. Formation can be a bit different. I am sorry for jumping to conclusions. In formation, especially in turns, it is pretty common to have to do that to get back into position.

And if you are adding podcasts make sure you add InvertedCast!
Click to expand...

No worries. I knew we were probably OK. I've been reading too many threads about deadly base / final turns. In this case shutting my mouth, no offense to you saying I'm too soft, was perfectly justified.
 
I hope they are not upset because I was impressed with all of them. In fact, during the brief / de brief they welcomed feedback (even mine). I didn't say anything about the ball because I didn't know if it was required for him to get back into formation like you said.
 
"Does this plane have rudder pedals?" :rofl:

or was the pilot 5'2" and couldn't reach them? :devil:
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Screw it, I didn't die, I'll explain. It was my third 1-hour flight of the day. Third pilot of the day. All three I'd pretty much been an observer, sitting right seat, completely silent (yes, I know, hard to believe). The amount of concentration it takes to fly in 4 ship formation on takeoff and landing, doing overhead breaks, low passes, and the like DEMANDS you look only out of the window and not at your instruments. I never saw one of the three look. The third pilot / plane was the only one with the ball this far out.

Does knowing my story change your comments?
Click to expand...

I was waiting for this part... ;) Making sure you weren't talking 'bout me.

First, we're supposed to have a thick skin in the debrief. So next time you come up, feel free to 'nicely' bring that up. Second, considering the agressive nature of some of the maneuvers the flight this could have been a safety of flight issue. While probably nothing to be worried about from this last flight, I have done the break at a slower speed and when I rolled into the 45-degree bank and pulled, the stall horn reminded me of the lower speed in a hurry. Finally, eh... Probably combo of plane and pilot in this case. :)

You're most definitely going to have the ball out of center for periods of the flight. Shouldn't during the single ship segments though.
 
AirBaker said:
I was waiting for this part... ;) Making sure you weren't talking 'bout me.

First, we're supposed to have a thick skin in the debrief. So next time you come up, feel free to 'nicely' bring that up. Second, considering the agressive nature of some of the maneuvers the flight this could have been a safety of flight issue. While probably nothing to be worried about from this last flight, I have done the break at a slower speed and when I rolled into the 45-degree bank and pulled, the stall horn reminded me of the lower speed in a hurry. Finally, eh... Probably combo of plane and pilot in this case. :)

You're most definitely going to have the ball out of center for periods of the flight. Shouldn't during the single ship segments though.
Click to expand...

Thanks for not giving me crap. Remember when the other other pilot flew me and in front of you I asked (timid style) if all those noises were stall horns? I was so relieved when he told me, no, they were gear not down warning alarms or something.
 
AirBaker said:
I was waiting for this part... ;) Making sure you weren't talking 'bout me.

First, we're supposed to have a thick skin in the debrief. So next time you come up, feel free to 'nicely' bring that up. Second, considering the agressive nature of some of the maneuvers the flight this could have been a safety of flight issue. While probably nothing to be worried about from this last flight, I have done the break at a slower speed and when I rolled into the 45-degree bank and pulled, the stall horn reminded me of the lower speed in a hurry. Finally, eh... Probably combo of plane and pilot in this case. :)

You're most definitely going to have the ball out of center for periods of the flight. Shouldn't during the single ship segments though.
Click to expand...

Also, worth noting: at least HALF of all pilots on that flight had "been tired" due to flying all day. They made comments that the last flight of the day was always the roughest. Even I was tired and I wasn't the pilot.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Screw it, I didn't die, I'll explain. It was my third 1-hour flight of the day. Third pilot of the day. All three I'd pretty much been an observer, sitting right seat, completely silent (yes, I know, hard to believe). The amount of concentration it takes to fly in 4 ship formation on takeoff and landing, doing overhead breaks, low passes, and the like DEMANDS you look only out of the window and not at your instruments. I never saw one of the three look. The third pilot / plane was the only one with the ball this far out.

Does knowing my story change your comments?
Click to expand...
It's actually a fairly common error for pilots to fly uncoordinated while in formation and it's considered to be as bad a habit there as anywhere else. I doubt that any formation pilot would take offense at being made aware that they were making this mistake as long as it was done somewhat politely. At the very least I'd bring it up after the flight because it's quite likely the pilot wasn't aware of this mis-behavior and would appreciate knowing that it was happening. The only caution I'd give is that you wouldn't want to startle the pilot while he's in formation but I doubt that a casual mention of the ball being way off center would be a big distraction.
 
Sorry but there is no room for being polite on matters that can cost you your life. That ball on the outside could end up as a spin, and end you up as a smoking hole, I used to feel intimidated saying that stuff as a low time pilot, now I don't care who I am with.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, it's a wonder the airplane doesn't simply explode any time the ball is out of the center, isn't it? Yet, it doesn't.

Melodrama.

Using the rudder is sometimes much more effective in maintaining one's position with small corrections in formation, than trying to use bank to get there, especially in a slow formation. Generally one is positioning the controls where ever one needs to put them, in order to make the airplane do what one wants it to do.

Perhaps his slot was a little into the wing vortice, and he was holding against it, Perhaps he was working the airplane this way or that to hold his position. Who knows?

Not a big deal. Unless the formation was doing stalls together (not recommended), then it's really a non-issue. The airplane isn't simply going to snap into a spin because the ball is out of the center.
 
When my pilots are badly out of trim, I reach outside with one hand and bang on the side of the aircraft and say over the ICS "Hey you hear that? It's the trim ball trying to get back inside!" Always good for a giggle.

But then again, I know these guys pretty well and we are always ribbing each other.
 
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