Pilot manners question?

darrell said:
When my pilots are badly out of trim, I reach outside with one hand and bang on the side of the aircraft and say over the ICS "Hey you hear that? It's the trim ball trying to get back inside!" Always good for a giggle.

But then again, I know these guys pretty well and we are always ribbing each other.
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Precisely. Though many on here say I should have spoken, I did not know this man. I did not bring it up later but should have (perhaps in private).
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Precisely. Though many on here say I should have spoken, I did not know this man. I did not bring it up later but should have (perhaps in private).
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Well, in fairness, my opinion would be to mention something in-flight, but if you don't know the guy, find a way to do it politely or with a bit of humor. I'm kind of the same way (at least, I'm guessing we have this in common) in that I'm not particularly fond of confrontation, which puts us in a tiny MINORITY of pilots (okay I'm a student still but you get the idea), most of whom are either perfectly comfortable with confrontation, or actively SEEK IT OUT (just look at a lot of posts right here for examples).

One of our pilots, who I respect very much, puts it very bluntly before every flight... "If any member of this crew, at any time during this flight, does something which you feel is unsafe, you have a MORAL OBLIGATION to speak up." If you bring it up politely, I can't imagine any decent person becoming upset about it.
 
darrell said:
Well, in fairness, my opinion would be to mention something in-flight, but if you don't know the guy, find a way to do it politely or with a bit of humor. I'm kind of the same way (at least, I'm guessing we have this in common) in that I'm not particularly fond of confrontation, which puts us in a tiny MINORITY of pilots (okay I'm a student still but you get the idea), most of whom are either perfectly comfortable with confrontation, or actively SEEK IT OUT (just look at a lot of posts right here for examples).

One of our pilots, who I respect very much, puts it very bluntly before every flight... "If any member of this crew, at any time during this flight, does something which you feel is unsafe, you have a MORAL OBLIGATION to speak up." If you bring it up politely, I can't imagine any decent person becoming upset about it.
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Thank you. Yes, I am anti-confrontational. I wish I would have thought of the humor thing. Again, this part of the flight is more workload than the rest, you're looking for traffic (untowered airport), the lead is announcing intentions on CTAF, you're looking at the runway and altimeter (agreed 200ft indicated for pass, all alt's set to 80ft at runup for consistency) and your partner / lead man / wing man / whatever.
 
Well it's either that, or you could always GIVE HIM THE SIGNAL! I use this all the time with our aircrews as well, it's a great default when all other forms of communication fail.

 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Screw it, I didn't die, I'll explain. It was my third 1-hour flight of the day. Third pilot of the day. All three I'd pretty much been an observer, sitting right seat, completely silent (yes, I know, hard to believe). The amount of concentration it takes to fly in 4 ship formation on takeoff and landing, doing overhead breaks, low passes, and the like DEMANDS you look only out of the window and not at your instruments. I never saw one of the three look. The third pilot / plane was the only one with the ball this far out.

Does knowing my story change your comments?
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Don't know about the airplanes you were flying in, but in my cherokee, the TC is on the far left corner of the panel, and it's almost impossible
to view it correctly from the right seat. Could it be that you were subject to the characteristics of parallax?
 
Could it be that this pilot was using the rudder to stay in position in the formation? It's a way of making a turn without banking. I always used rudder to stay on line during mapping missions because it was important to keep the wings level. Because of this I had the unconscious habit of making small corrections on instrument approaches this way. It was pointed out to me at some point and I didn't even know I was doing it. As long as you have enough airspeed, being uncoordinated is not dangerous. If you were really curious you could have asked if that was some sort of special technique with regard to flying formation.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I was in a plane recently, and the ball was WAY off center. As far as it could go.

Only with a low hour pilot or close friend would I say quietly "right rudder" on the intercom since most want a sterile cockpit but I've heard downwind / base / final that ball needs to be in the middle.

I can't give details, since I don't know this person or if they read POA. All I can say is that I didn't feel it was "nice" to say anything.

Should I have said something? I was really trying to do the right thing. I have very few hours and this person was older, more experienced, and owned their own plane.
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Everskyward said:
Could it be that this pilot was using the rudder to stay in position in the formation? It's a way of making a turn without banking. I always used rudder to stay on line during mapping missions because it was important to keep the wings level. Because of this I had the unconscious habit of making small corrections on instrument approaches this way. It was pointed out to me at some point and I didn't even know I was doing it. As long as you have enough airspeed, being uncoordinated is not dangerous. If you were really curious you could have asked if that was some sort of special technique with regard to flying formation.
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If you had spoken up, you probably would have learned about a technique that is new to you. Since you have asked us, you are learning about the technique anyway. Asking is a good thing.
 
Kim, here is my two cents.

Not speaking specifically of you but of anyone;

1. If you know enough about flying an airplane to look at the ball and the bank and know whether you are in a slip or a skid then you owe it to yourself and to the pilot to alert him if he is skidding badly in a turn. You would not have to say anything if he is slipping.

2. If you know enough about flying an airplane to know that the ball has meaning, or maybe you know the purpose of it, and that it "should" be centered or "something bad" might happen (because that is what you were taught or read or whatever) then you owe it to yourself to mention it. The pilot will either correct or let you know everything is OK and he will explain later as he is busy now.

3. If you do not know anything about that ball, the question is moot.

Now talking about you, Kim. Based on your post here you seem to be somewhere above point # 2 but not to point # 1. So you default to speaking up. This is not the time to be "polite". You had reason to feel, right or wrong, that the pilot was perhaps being careless in flying the airplane and possibly putting you at risk. You should have spoken up then. Then, in the cockpit, not in the debrief. IMHO. :D
 
A bit of background on the maneuver. Kimberly can fill in where she saw the ball out-of-center.

For the checkride, it is important to see both single ship spacing after the overhead break as well as an element landing. For efficiency and not having , the maneuver is as follows:

Overhead break to land - Upon reaching 200' arrest the descent and hold a briefed airspeed. - Gear comes up for all aircraft (unless welded)- 1 and 3 maintain altitude and airspeed until the nearing the end of the airport environment and then climb out as standard/briefed - 2 and 4 will begin to accelerate and rejoin their respective element leads. Most likely in the turn to downwind - Then the element landing.

Again, this is practice, no one is shooting at us, and we're supposed to have a thick skin in there. Just don't be mean about it. ;)
 
Baker, if you screw up just this much, you'll be flying a Bonanza full of rubber dogs^%t out of KSAC!
 
Everskyward said:
Could it be that this pilot was using the rudder to stay in position in the formation? ... Because of this I had the unconscious habit of making small corrections on instrument approaches this way. It was pointed out to me at some point and I didn't even know I was doing it. As long as you have enough airspeed, being uncoordinated is not dangerous. If you were really curious you could have asked if that was some sort of special technique with regard to flying formation.
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Sporty's Instrument video course recommends rudder only for small changes.
 
danhagan said:
Sporty's Instrument video course recommends rudder only for small changes.
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If you are established on the final approach, small changes are the order of the day, no? My CFII teaches to hold the wings level with the ailerons and adjust heading with the rudders when established on final approach.
 
murphey said:
Don't know about the airplanes you were flying in, but in my cherokee, the TC is on the far left corner of the panel, and it's almost impossible
to view it correctly from the right seat. Could it be that you were subject to the characteristics of parallax?
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I agree with you, and have seen that things look different from the right seat, which is one of the reasons I didn't speak up. But I watched that ball, and it was ALL THE WAY out of the center, as far as it could go, to the right side (we were turning to the left).
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I agree with you, and have seen that things look different from the right seat, which is one of the reasons I didn't speak up. But I watched that ball, and it was ALL THE WAY out of the center, as far as it could go, to the right side (we were turning to the left).
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If it was all the way to the right while turning left...wouldn't that mean he put in too much left rudder?
 
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AirBaker said:
A bit of background on the maneuver. Kimberly can fill in where she saw the ball out-of-center.

For the checkride, it is important to see both single ship spacing after the overhead break as well as an element landing. For efficiency and not having , the maneuver is as follows:

Overhead break to land - Upon reaching 200' arrest the descent and hold a briefed airspeed. - Gear comes up for all aircraft (unless welded)- 1 and 3 maintain altitude and airspeed until the nearing the end of the airport environment and then climb out as standard/briefed - 2 and 4 will begin to accelerate and rejoin their respective element leads. Most likely in the turn to downwind - Then the element landing.

Again, this is practice, no one is shooting at us, and we're supposed to have a thick skin in there. Just don't be mean about it. ;)
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Chris,

During both approaches (or were there three?) to the runway I saw it. The first is when we fly over, then break left, then circle back, then fly at about 200, the second (I think) is when we fly a full pattern (climbing up from 200 then going back down) and then land full stop.

Both times it was on the turn from downwind to base, and base to final, etc though sometimes that seems like one continuous left turn. The ball was all the way to the right.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I agree with you, and have seen that things look different from the right seat, which is one of the reasons I didn't speak up. But I watched that ball, and it was ALL THE WAY out of the center, as far as it could go, to the right side (we were turning to the left).
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Then he was skidding hard in the turn and deserves to have that pointed out to him. And if you did not know that was a skid then you should still have pointed it out for your own peace-of-mind. You know, when we take a pax in our airplane, we have a responsibility to their peace-of-mind.
 
Everskyward said:
Could it be that this pilot was using the rudder to stay in position in the formation? It's a way of making a turn without banking. I always used rudder to stay on line during mapping missions because it was important to keep the wings level. Because of this I had the unconscious habit of making small corrections on instrument approaches this way. It was pointed out to me at some point and I didn't even know I was doing it. As long as you have enough airspeed, being uncoordinated is not dangerous. If you were really curious you could have asked if that was some sort of special technique with regard to flying formation.
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It could be, Mari, but I started this discussion because that was the THIRD pilot of the day and the first two pilots had not done this. I watched the balls of all three pilots like a hawk.
 
alfadog said:
If you are established on the final approach, small changes are the order of the day, no? My CFII teaches to hold the wings level with the ailerons and adjust heading with the rudders when established on final approach.
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We were not on established final, we are on a continuous descending turn from downwind at high-ish speeds (overhead break) ending up on the runway numbers at the completion of the turn and then flying the runway at 200 feet (about 120AGL here), at a pre-briefed airspeed, something between 100 - 120 knots.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
We were not on established final, we are on a continuous descending turn from downwind at high-ish speeds (overhead break) ending up on the runway numbers at the completion of the turn and then flying the runway at 200 feet (about 120AGL here), at a pre-briefed airspeed, something between 100 - 120 knots.
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That was in answer to a bit of a sub-thread going on here about use of rudder on instrument approach. For you, he was skidding hard and should have been alerted to that. Perhaps he was tired and overloaded but that can be a fatal error - one of the few really fatal errors. Right up there with VFR pilots flying into IMC.
 
alfadog said:
That was in answer to a bit of a sub-thread going on here about use of rudder on instrument approach. For you, he was skidding hard and should have been alerted to that. Perhaps he was tired and overloaded but that can be a fatal error - one of the few really fatal errors. Right up there with VFR pilots flying into IMC.
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Which is why I posted here, I feel it is important for me to ask these questions. Next time, I'll speak up. As mentioned, I fly with other pilots and once on base / final I did say "right rudder" when I saw the skid but it was a small skid. That person is my friend, and has the same number of hours as me, and he thanked me.

This post is about a person I don't know. Again, next time, I won't let that stop me from saying something. I think the better question is how can I say it without ****ing him off.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
We were in a left turn. The ball was pegged all the way to the right.
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And what are we taught? Step on the ball. You can flip that and say stop stepping on the side away from the ball. He was in a left turn cranking left rudder. :nono:
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Which is why I posted here, I feel it is important for me to ask these questions. Next time, I'll speak up. As mentioned, I fly with other pilots and once on base / final I did say "right rudder" when I saw the skid but it was a small skid. That person is my friend, and has the same number of hours as me, and he thanked me.

This post is about a person I don't know. Again, next time, I won't let that stop me from saying something. I think the better question is how can I say it without ****ing him off.
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He has a responsibility to your safety and peace-of-mind and if he is not cool with that responsibility then he has no business taking up pax so assume he is cool with it and just say, "you are skidding." Direct, short.

I would have no problem with a pax pointing out if they see something they do not like; I would rather they did.
 
alfadog said:
He has a responsibility to your safety and peace-of-mind and if he is not cool with that responsibility then he has no business taking up pax so assume he is cool with it and just say, "you are skidding." Direct, short.

I would have no problem with a pax pointing out if they see something they do not like; I would rather they did.
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Roger that.
 
I saw it a bunch with one of my flying buddies back when we were both building time towards the Commercial. I'd usually just gently tap the rudder pedal and he'd get the message-I'd have wanted him to do the same for me. I use the same trick as a CFI so I can minimize my students' exposure to my annoying voice.
 
GCA319 said:
I saw it a bunch with one of my flying buddies back when we were both building time towards the Commercial. I'd usually just gently tap the rudder pedal and he'd get the message-I'd have wanted him to do the same for me. I use the same trick as a CFI so I can minimize my students' exposure to my annoying voice.
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Touching the controls would not be appropriate in Kim's scenario. :nonod:
 
alfadog said:
Touching the controls would not be appropriate in Kim's scenario. :nonod:
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And in two out of the three planes, the right hand side rudders were removed / pinned down / didn't work (Beechcraft). There was only one yoke (rotates right to left). The third plane, and indeed all planes I am in unless I'm invited to fly, I was full back - nowhere near the rudders. Could not have reached them if I tried.
 
Since you are a low time pilot, when you have doubts you can always phrase them as a question to a teacher rather then a doubt.

ex: "I noticed the ball was out of center in that manever more then it was in the other planes I rode in today, is that because of diffences in your plane?"
 
Maybe I'm just a chicken. My take is that being PC is fine in most situations, but when in an aircraft both the guilty and the innocent arrive at the scene of the crash at the same time. You were essentially in what we used to call "low ops", in that situation the pilot flying has their eyes outside and the pilot not flying has their eyes inside on the panel. (There is a vid here on some thread of the crew of the BA's 130 doing their show routine, it is a great example). If for some reason the PNF is needed to look outside, such as a turn to the blind side of the PF, there is a specific call out, eg "eyes outside". CRM is just as effective and vital in a single engined plane at low altitude as it was for us in a C130 or HU25. You've got a good head on your shoulders and what seem to be good instincts. Speak up.
 
PBristolJr said:
It sounds like you are describing an experienced pilot, however flying totally uncoordinated is not a trait found in an experienced pilot.
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Why wouldn't it be? To that end I mean if you fly with a yaw dampener all day long then jump into a plane without one it doesn't mean your not an experienced pilot at all. It just means you haven't made the mental transition yet.

If it continued to occur then you have a problem. If it occurs just once during the flight... see above. Aside from that, if it occurs in the pattern it doesn't matter how experienced the pilot is.... don't let them do it, speak up. Unintentional slips can be very bad. Might be a good indication that they need to take the plane to the practice area and get their legs back for that kind of plane.
 
gkainz said:
So many straight lines, so little time ... :D :D :rofl:
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The second pilot had the best ball, the first pilot's ball was ALMOST AS GOOD as the second pilot's, and, the third one, see above. I didn't really watch any of the other instruments / gauges since the "leader" determines pretty much everything else (airspeed, altitude, degrees of bank, etc). I was in position number 2 or 3 each flight. Never 1 or 4.
 
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