Pilot Career Question

Oldmanb777 said:
Yes it sucks. Welcome to trying to make a living in aviation. And these are the good times. Historically "Normal" times were much worse.
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I'm unaware of many careers where there's not some level of dues paying at the entry level. Middle aged dudes on here are constantly bemoaning the barrier to entry of the better jobs in aviation, but it's not easy to jump careers into an entirely different line of work for anyone that's already earning a good living in their existing field. The trouble with aviation as I see it, is there's less assurance that you'll come out the other side of the early years with the career that you might hope to have. As you know, timing is everything.
 
kayoh190 said:
I'm unaware of many careers where there's not some level of dues paying at the entry level. Middle aged dudes on here are constantly bemoaning the barrier to entry of the better jobs in aviation, but it's not easy to jump careers into an entirely different line of work for anyone that's already earning a good living in their existing field. The trouble with aviation as I see it, is there's less assurance that you'll come out the other side of the early years with the career that you might hope to have. As you know, timing is everything.
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if I was 20 there'd be no bemoaning whatsoever. I don't think it's a big deal for people well established in their career to point out the sacrifices they'd have to make to jump ship. if I was 20 I wouldn't be sacrificing sht. I'd be doing the same thing I did to start my career, start from the ground up. it's simply a choice people like myself might have to make, and to point it out shouldn't be vilified, as it's an incredibly large deciding factor for many of us. I don't think most people are saying "getting paid Y sux for Y job", they're saying "ouch, it's gonna hurt taking a massive pay cut to start over again". that's all. which is true. whether you like to hear it or not is on you.
 
eman1200 said:
it's simply a choice people like myself might have to make, and to point it out shouldn't be vilified, as it's an incredibly large deciding factor for many of us. I don't think most people are saying "getting paid Y sux for Y job", they're saying "ouch, it's gonna hurt taking a massive pay cut to start over again". that's all. which is true. whether you like to hear it or not is on you.
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Bemoaning is more negative than I intended, but nobody is vilifying anybody - my response was to someone that made a comment about making a living in aviation, which itself was a reply to someone complaining about the realities of low time aviation jobs. None of this is aviation specific - if I wanted to suddenly become a surgeon, I'd take a massive pay and QOL cut for the next decade of my life. But that's not necessarily a failing of the medical profession, just the reality of someone already established on a career path deciding to do something different.

And you're not middle aged, doofus! :p
 
kayoh190 said:
Bemoaning is more negative than I intended, but nobody is vilifying anybody - my response was to someone that made a comment about making a living in aviation, which itself was a reply to someone complaining about the realities of low time aviation jobs. None of this is aviation specific - if I wanted to suddenly become a surgeon, I'd take a massive pay and QOL cut for the next decade of my life. But that's not necessarily a failing of the medical profession, just the reality of someone already established on a career path deciding to do something different.

And you're not middle aged, doofus! :p
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I mean I'm not theisen old, but old enough to consider different potential aviation career paths.

:stirpot:
 
Between my father who was also a guidance counselor, looking back at my own pre retirement life, and a few nuggets of wisdom from Mike Roe, I would say

1 - You need a real job to pay bills, buy food, provide for you and your family. It isn't a quest for personal enlightenment, an everyday feeding of your soul that you'll quit as soon as you get bored. Hint: Going into debt to get a masters in puppetry arts will NOT give you a real job.

2 - Find one that pays the most and has the most economic value that is a combination of something you can do well / fits your skills, abilities, and personality, and something you can have an interest in doing.

3- Don't follow your passion to find a job. Find a job (see #2) and get passionate about it.

4 - It's a job. It can be fun at times, but at times not. It's a job.

5 - It will change, your company will go out of business, something will happen. You'll need to change jobs. See #2 above

6- Managing and maximizing your career, doing and bringing the best to your job; that is the rewarding part that you can be proud of - whatever the job is.

And for the potential professional pilots out there:
Flying can be a great job. It can also be a bad job for you. But it's a job, not a religion. You have to see how many years you have to work, and balance the cost of entry level low wages and low QOL vs what might happen after that. It might not be worth it. If it isn't, seems like the best choice is to revisit #2 above. If it is worth it, fantastic! Whatever way it turns out, you can "be happy and fulfilled in your career" either way.
 
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I think there is a certain amount of "back in my day we had to walk uphill in the snow to and from school everyday", so you new guys should have to suffer too. I certainly saw that at my part 91 job, most of the people there were bitter that I didn't need the job, and ****ed off that I got the job because I was friends with the plane owners and had worked for them for the previous 14 years, just not as a pilot. Getting invited to the owner's birthday party on the yacht, didn't sit well with my co-workers.
 
WDD said:
Between my father who was also a guidance counselor, looking back at my own pre retirement life, and a few nuggets of wisdom from Mike Roe, I would say

1 - You need a real job to pay bills, buy food, provide for you and your family. It isn't a quest for personal enlightenment, an everyday feeding of your soul that you'll quit as soon as you get bored. Hint: Going into debt to get a masters in puppetry arts will NOT give you a real job.

2 - Find one that pays the most and has the most economic value that is a combination of something you can do well / fits your skills, abilities, and personality, and something you can have an interest in doing.

3- Don't follow your passion to find a job. Find a job (see #2) and get passionate about it.

4 - It's a job. It can be fun at times, but at times not. It's a job.

5 - It will change, your company will go out of business, something will happen. You'll need to change jobs. See #2 above

6- Managing and maximizing your career, doing and bringing the best to your job; that is the rewarding part that you can be proud of - whatever the job is.

And for the potential professional pilots out there:
Flying can be a great job. It can also be a bad job for you. But it's a job, not a religion. You have to see how many years you have to work, and balance the cost of entry level low wages and low QOL vs what might happen after that. It might not be worth it. If it isn't, seems like the best choice is to revisit #2 above. If it is worth it, fantastic! Whatever way it turns out, you can "be happy and fulfilled in your career" either way.
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Lots of wisdom there!
 
Wagondriver said:
I think there is a certain amount of "back in my day we had to walk uphill in the snow to and from school everyday", so you new guys should have to suffer too. I certainly saw that at my part 91 job, most of the people there were bitter that I didn't need the job, and ****ed off that I got the job because I was friends with the plane owners and had worked for them for the previous 14 years, just not as a pilot. Getting invited to the owner's birthday party on the yacht, didn't sit well with my co-workers.
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Well yeah, that is called nepotism, and it rubs a lot of people the wrong way. You'd be unhappy if it happened to you.
 
Or it is known as hiring from within. A 14 year employee with known work habits and history versus someone totally unknown.
 
Nepotism goes both ways. My Dad's company had a policy that they would not consider ANY relative of ANY employee. Some other companies have the same policy. Delta was like that for years as well. A small FBO I worked at many years ago. The owner would not consider ANYBODY who got a recommendation from an employee. I also worked for a sporting good company that would not promote anyone who was not in some way related. So it goes both ways. I've also seen a lot of reverse discrimination, or maybe you can call it reverse DEI these days.
 
Wagondriver said:
I think there is a certain amount of "back in my day we had to walk uphill in the snow to and from school everyday", so you new guys should have to suffer too. I certainly saw that at my part 91 job, most of the people there were bitter that I didn't need the job, and ****ed off that I got the job because I was friends with the plane owners and had worked for them for the previous 14 years, just not as a pilot. Getting invited to the owner's birthday party on the yacht, didn't sit well with my co-workers.
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Did you ever consider the yacht party was just the excuse but you being there at all was the real problem?

I’m curious how many of the other pilots were hired without enough experience to be insured with promises of left seat time by the owner.

You specifically said you were only hired because you knew the owner and were not insurable. That means you are not qualified to sit in the seat. By extension that means every pilot you flew with had a student in the right seat not a copilot. To top it off it sounds like they had a student that wanted to sit in the left seat like right now.

I may be wrong here but I think you should think about this a little more… there is a certain amount of paying dues that’s necessary to build competence it is not punishment
 
I see Half Fast's point. I'm not saying that nepotism is OK; I don't agree with it. But the world's a messy place, and it happens. I understand and expect that these things are going to happen. Battle what you can, don't let the crap live rent free in your head.
 
Groundpounder said:
So you believe that people should be hired because of who they are related to and who they know vs their qualifications?
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I never said anything of the sort.

That said, it's how business works, and "qualifications" are to some degree subjective. There's a reason that a new senior exec will often bring in a team of people they know from previous companies. They may not be the best possible person out of everyone on the planet, but they are a known quantity. The hiring manager knows how they work, what they are capable of, what motivates them, and so on. I'm sure the guy who sought me out for the position I currently hold could have found someone "more qualified", but we'd worked together a couple of times. I knew what to expect of him, and he knew what I was capable of and to expect of me. It's not always as simple as who someone is related to or who they know.
 
I was not uninsurable. I was not unqualified. I went to Flight Safety shortly after I got there and shortly after was left seat in the Caravan. Company policy is two pilots in ALL aircraft, there was going to be someone in the right seat with me no matter what. I had flown that plane and the PC12 before I was hired as a pilot for them. The very first time I flew the PC12 it was with the owner, I was right seat, after we landed, he said "don't let it go to your head, but you did better than the guys that work for us".
One of the owners had the same total time as me, but no commercial license, not only was he allowed to fly the PC12, and Caravan but allowed to fly them solo. He had gotten approved by the insurance company a few months earlier, before they upped their liability policy to nearly 1/3 of a billion $.
 
WDD said:
I'm not saying that nepotism is OK; I don't agree with it.
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Consider a different perspective, though.

If I own a business, shouldn't I be able to hire my offspring if I choose? Isn't the business mine, to do with as I please? If my kid needs a job, can't I choose to give him one and thereby take care of him and my grandkids? If I desire to elevate my kid into management positions and leave the business to him when I retire, isn't that my prerogative? The same goes for hiring a friend or any other person, if I choose. If you're my employee, you might not agree with my decision, but it's mine to make, not yours, and you're free to go elsewhere or start your own business.

A publicly traded company is different. The owners are the stockholders, and management has a duty to operate the company on their behalf and hire on qualifications, not family ties or other connections. Not so with a privately owned company.
 
DaleB said:
I'm sure the guy who sought me out for the position I currently hold could have found someone "more qualified", but we'd worked together a couple of times.
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Sometimes a team can be stronger than its members individually, if they mesh well. A good quarterback and a good receiver who are good at reading each other and think alike can beat a great quarterback and a great receiver who don't.
 
Half Fast said:
Consider a different perspective, though.

If I own a business, shouldn't I be able to hire my offspring if I choose? Isn't the business mine, to do with as I please? If my kid needs a job, can't I choose to give him one and thereby take care of him and my grandkids? If I desire to elevate my kid into management positions and leave the business to him when I retire, isn't that my prerogative? The same goes for hiring a friend or any other person, if I choose. If you're my employee, you might not agree with my decision, but it's mine to make, not yours, and you're free to go elsewhere or start your own business.

A publicly traded company is different. The owners are the stockholders, and management has a duty to operate the company on their behalf and hire on qualifications, not family ties or other connections. Not so with a privately owned company.
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Yep - as a business owner you obsoletely have the right to hire your offspring as you choose. Or a friend. Whomever. It's your business.

But is it good for the business, good for your offspring? I've seen this many times, and its more of a bad outcome than a good one. If my son or daughter couldn't get the job with their own ambition and skills, they should do something else. What happens when dad isn't around to run things for them? They need to be able to do what they can on their own. Be there to support and offer guidance, but not take away their independence. Saddest thing I've seen are grown "children" who haven't had to and have never learned to prosper on their own.
 
WDD said:
Yep - as a business owner you obsoletely have the right to hire your offspring as you choose. Or a friend. Whomever. It's your business.

But is it good for the business, good for your offspring? I've seen this many times, and its more of a bad outcome than a good one. If my son or daughter couldn't get the job with their own ambition and skills, they should do something else. What happens when dad isn't around to run things for them? They need to be able to do what they can on their own. Be there to support and offer guidance, but not take away their independence. Saddest thing I've seen are grown "children" who haven't had to and have never learned to prosper on their own.
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What's your sample size? I'm pretty sure that the example of history would have a fairly good number of success stories of multi-generational farms and businesses. I'd suggest a lot has to do with how the child was raised.
 
Ideal sample size. Encompasses every variable and all applicable combinations and permutations, everywhere. Including careers.
 
Sure. Nice normal standard deviation too. Why of course I’m making that up
 
Somebody had to, originally. I love throwing all those words around. Sounds all geeky and stuff.
 
Piperonca said:
Somebody had to, originally. I love throwing all those words around. Sounds all geeky and stuff.
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Sounds even better if you call the distribution "Gaussian" instead of "normal." Then toss in the central limit theorem for good measure....

(I've been putting the EE into GEEK since 1984.)
 
TrueCourse said:
The OP knew how to work the system. Register, post, then vamoose. Then, sit back and read the posts as a guest without signing in. Clever.

Why are all the posts on POA open for anyone, anywhere to read without registering?
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I kept wondering if anyone would get my pun. Or admit they did.
 
Half Fast said:
Sounds even better if you call the distribution "Gaussian" instead of "normal." Then toss in the central limit theorem for good measure....

(I've been putting the EE into GEEK since 1984.)
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In all probability, you're way smarter than I am...
 
I like your reference, Fast, although I suspect it won’t be universally well received.
 
As someone who has both benefitted and been bitten by "family and friends" hiring practices - to a certain extent, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. The problem comes, in my opinion, when those family or friends can't or won't be fired if they aren't performing well or they are getting unearned promotions simply because they're family or friends.
 
SkyChaser said:
As someone who has both benefitted and been bitten by "family and friends" hiring practices - to a certain extent, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. The problem comes, in my opinion, when those family or friends can't or won't be fired if they aren't performing well or they are getting unearned promotions simply because they're family or friends.
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A problem is when a poorly performing employee isn't fired (or disciplined) .... it doesn't matter if it's because of family/friend/contract/whatever.
 
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