Piece of plastic packaging blown into the tank

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BerndMR

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BerndMR
Hi fellow aviators.

I feel stupid as hell - but while fueling the wind blew a 1 inch piece of this plastic packaging into the open fuel nozzle of my PA28 tank full of AVGAS.
Can't find it anymore :(

As low hour newbie: what can happen and what to do?

Greetings
Bernd
 

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My guess is that is will be drawn towards the fuel outlet of the tank and block it. It would be nice to believe that the 100LL would disolve it ...
 
Drain the tank ,nothing good can happen if you leave it in the tank.
 
I did the same dumb thing at a remote airport years ago, but it was a piece of paper towel.

No FBO or mechanic.

Spent a long time with a flashlight and a wire hook. Eventually fished it out after rocking the tank to slosh it around.

Might want to put your piece of plastic in a little jar of 100LL to see what it looks like after a few hours. Might be a shriveled up little ball you need to be looking for.
 
Gary Ward said:
Could you safely stick a boroscope in a 1/2 full fuel to look for it?
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Is the Chinese boroscope explosion proof? Or does it have powered LEDs and a little camera at the far end that get inadvertently dunked into 100LL?

Just thinking.
 
My thought is to immerse a piece of the plastic in 100LL.

Possible it might dissolve.

Tanks generally have the outlet protected by a finger screen with coarse

openings of about 3/32inch.

Good luck.
 
Drain the tank. Let it air dry for a few days. Vacuum it out.

I'd be very concerned about a spark with that method however.
 
Gary Ward said:
Could you safely stick a boroscope in a 1/2 full fuel to look for it?
Click to expand...
That's exactly what the mechanic will try tomorrow.
If not successful, drain and flush...
If not successful, remove tank and flush...

Magman said:
My thought is to immerse a piece of the plastic in 100LL. Possible it might dissolve.

Tanks generally have the outlet protected by a finger screen with coarse openings of about 3/32inch.
Click to expand...
Had it in a jar for 3 hours - nothing happened (then stumbled over it...). It should be LDPE - that will take much longer to dissolve.
I looked up the part number for the fuel finger and you are right - it is big and could not be fully blocked by this piece of plastic.
But I would not be happy with leaving it in (even it should not do anything severe)

Racerx said:
Drain the tank. Let it air dry for a few days. Vacuum it out.

I'd be very concerned about a spark with that method however.
Click to expand...
That could bring you to heaven very quick without needing the plane :)
Without flooding the tank with nitrogen before, I would never vacuum it.

Thanks all for the support - hope the mechanic has success tomorrow.
 
Gary Ward said:
I didn't mean to stick the camera in the fuel, just be around the fumes.
It's a Teslong, seems pretty good to me? But I am not going to do anything dumb with it just yet.
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The fumes are what is highly flammable. Also, why @Racerx suggests a couple of days of air drying to get to a non-flammable environment in the tank before scoping it.
 
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keen9 said:
The fumes are what is highly flammable. Also, why @Racerx suggests a couple of days of air drying to get to a non-flammable environment in the tank before scoping it.
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The fuel fumes are heavier than air and don't leave easily. The tank also has weld lines that can retain small amounts of fuel that continue to slowly evaporate.

Acorn Welding will not do anything on a tank until is has been steam-cleaned inside and out. I suspect there is a history behind that.

Anytime I removed a tank for repair I air-dried it, then ran nitrogen into it for a while, then taped up every port for shipping to Acorn.
 
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FWIW... A few gallons of water, half a bottle of dishwashing liquid, and a trickle of compressed air overnight...
 
The reason for my post is to recommend methanol to be used to flush the tank out after steaming and welding as a small amount will dry out the inside of the tank fast and completely.

Hartwig is another that has done good work on a Cessna tank for me.
 
A tank with fuel typically is full of vapors and not much oxygen, so not flammable. Too rich of a mixture.

The problem is, when you "empty" the tank and you have a mix in the tank of fuel vapors and air, which is in the flammable range.
 
Pinecone said:
A tank with fuel typically is full of vapors and not much oxygen, so not flammable. Too rich of a mixture.

The problem is, when you "empty" the tank and you have a mix in the tank of fuel vapors and air, which is in the flammable range.
Click to expand...
That there. The fuel gauge level sender is an open wirewound rheostat. A copper runner with a carbon button is moved across it by the float arm to vary the resistance to make the fuel gauge move. The button wears out and the copper runner is now on the resistance wire. It starts wearing the wire making it thinner and thinner until the wire gets really rough or breaks, and now sparks are being generated there. In the fuel tank. In flight. And yet there is no kaboom. Cars had the same setup for many decades.

This wear continues much of the time if the airplane is tied down outside. The wind moves the airplane, disturbing the fuel, making the float move a little and rubbing the wires in the rheostat.

When the tank is drained, I would never touch that sender if the master was on.

Combustion range of gasoline vapors is about 8:1 air/fuel by weight (rich) to 18:1 (lean).
 
Back to that bit of plastic: I would drain the tank via the sump drain port. Take the valve out and drain the fuel into a bucket grounded to the airplane and the ground. rock the wings a bit to slosh the fuel around. The tail should be a bit low for this. The plastic will tend to follow the fuel toward the drain, and if you're lucky it will end up over the drain, partly blocking the flow. Leave it there. Don't rock the wings anymore. Finish draining the tank, then carefully pick the plastic out with a sharp dental pick.
 
An alternative to dry nitrogen is block dry ice, CO2, to displace air. Cheap and easy to get in most cities. More can be added while borescoping, to keep venting any new evaporation.

It is normally sold in blocks, and it can be broken up with a hammer and chisel to fit the opening. Do not attempt to pick up with your hands, use plyers or kitchen tongs.

Store it in a cooler, LINED WITH NEWSPAPER, if it is plastic, the plastic cooler liner will become very brittle, and crack if bumped.
 
Use a wide (e.g. 3/4") plastic hose to siphon the fuel from the tank into a container with a screen to catch the debris. As you're doing that move the hose end around, working as a sort of pool vacuum cleaner. Even better, hook the end of the hose to a fuel pump so you have a continuous vacuum if the plastic plugs the other end.
 
geezer said:
An alternative to dry nitrogen is block dry ice, CO2, to displace air. Cheap and easy to get in most cities. More can be added while borescoping, to keep venting any new evaporation.

It is normally sold in blocks, and it can be broken up with a hammer and chisel to fit the opening. Do not attempt to pick up with your hands, use plyers or kitchen tongs.

Store it in a cooler, LINED WITH NEWSPAPER, if it is plastic, the plastic cooler liner will become very brittle, and crack if bumped.
Click to expand...
I would not put dry ice into contact with a fuel tank, unless you also feel like vacuuming up the cracked tank seam sealer that shatters under the temperature change.

This is the same method auto guys use to pop tar based sound dead net off their floorboards.
 
Put the sticker in the proper position and you have a solution.

st,small,507x507-pad,600x600,f8f8f8.u6.jpg

s-l1600.jpg
 
ZacharyMoody said:
You should get the fuel filters checked. They're designed to catch things like that piece of plastic, so there's a good chance they've done their job and caught it.
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There is a finger screen in the tank outlet, like so:

1712187789227.png

Anything that reaches the fuel filters in the strainer and carb has to get though those small holes first. Ain't gonna happen.
 
Dan Thomas said:
There is a finger screen in the tank outlet, like so:

View attachment 127388

Anything that reaches the fuel filters in the strainer and carb has to get though those small holes first. Ain't gonna happen.
Click to expand...
Yeah, seeing that makes it seem that the simplest option is just to remove that and filter the fuel as you collect it when it drains. I'm guessing that you might need to slosh some more fuel around if the plastic doesn't show up in the filter, but if it doesn't show up after that I'm not sure what you do then. You have to assume that the plastic either disintegrated or it remains in the tank.
 
Before trying some of these more difficult options I would take a flashlight and one of these tools and go fishing
www.homedepot.com

GrabEasy 24 in. Ergonomic Handle, Flexible, 4 Claw Pick-Up Tool, Jewelry Retriever, Clog Remover, Drain Snake in Chrome PF0405 - The Home Depot

Visit the Home Depot to buy GrabEasy Grabber and Retriever PF0401
www.homedepot.com
If you've never seen one used you push the plunger and some claws come out of the other end, works great to grab things in tight places and retrieve them. They sell these at many places that sell tools, auto parts stores, etc.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The fuel fumes are heavier than air and don't leave easily. The tank also has weld lines that can retain small amounts of fuel that continue to slowly evaporate.

Acorn Welding will not do anything on a tank until is has been steam-cleaned inside and out. I suspect there is a history behind that.

Anytime I removed a tank for repair I air-dried it, then ran nitrogen into it for a while, then taped up every port for shipping to Acorn.
Click to expand...
I weld on diesel tanks all the time. We had a customer come in after we told them fuel is OK, gas we won't touch. Big mistake. They washed the gas tank out with diesel. Our guy goes to burn the paint off and it literally blew up in his face. Shut down the 4 lane highway and medivac'd him out.

If I absolutely can not get out of welding a gas tank. I don't want it in my shop until it's been to a radiator shop. Even then it's getting flooded with nitrogen.
 
cowman said:
Before trying some of these more difficult options I would take a flashlight and one of these tools and go fishing
www.homedepot.com

GrabEasy 24 in. Ergonomic Handle, Flexible, 4 Claw Pick-Up Tool, Jewelry Retriever, Clog Remover, Drain Snake in Chrome PF0405 - The Home Depot

Visit the Home Depot to buy GrabEasy Grabber and Retriever PF0401
www.homedepot.com
If you've never seen one used you push the plunger and some claws come out of the other end, works great to grab things in tight places and retrieve them. They sell these at many places that sell tools, auto parts stores, etc.
Click to expand...
I have one. Used it occasionally. The problem is finding that bit of debris so you can grab it. And one also has to be really careful with a flashlight around an open fuel filler. Flashlights can generate sparks with their switches. I have an old 2-D-cell flashlight that is certified for explosive atmospheres.
 
dbahn said:
Yeah, seeing that makes it seem that the simplest option is just to remove that and filter the fuel as you collect it when it drains. I'm guessing that you might need to slosh some more fuel around if the plastic doesn't show up in the filter, but if it doesn't show up after that I'm not sure what you do then. You have to assume that the plastic either disintegrated or it remains in the tank.
Click to expand...
That is NOT the simplest option. Have you ever worked on an airplane? Ever seen what is involved in removing the finger strainer? It's in the wing root, up against the fuselage. Tight place. It would be nearly as much hassle as just removing the tank. The tank would have to be drained anyway. You dare not try to drain the tank though the finger strainer port, either; it would splash everywhere and a fire would be almost guaranteed. And the fuel outlet is a little above the bottom of the tank to discourage debris getting to the rest of the system, debris that is supposed to go to the sump drain, which is why I suggested removing the sump drain valve and rocking the wings a bit. That's the only place the plastic would show up, if at all.
 
It "seemed" the simplest option, and I have worked quite a bit on airplanes but never including removing a tank outlet with a filter on it. ;)

I retract my suggestion. :mad:
 
Dan Thomas said:
That is NOT the simplest option. Have you ever worked on an airplane? Ever seen what is involved in removing the finger strainer? It's in the wing root, up against the fuselage. Tight place. It would be nearly as much hassle as just removing the tank.
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Thats also what the mechanic said - remove tank is faster than trying to remove the finger alone.

Only a short notice from the mechanic: 1 hour "borescoping" - watched every viewable part of the tank - it disappeared...! :confused:
So also no chance with a "grabber" - you cannot grab what you cannot see.
He has no imagination where it could hide - so it dissolved or a miracle happened.

We discuss tomorrow - if maybe there is a spot he couldn´t see but can flush.

I changed the checklist to start/land from the other tank for the next hours just in case.
 
Dan Thomas said:
There is a finger screen in the tank outlet, like so:

View attachment 127388

Anything that reaches the fuel filters in the strainer and carb has to get though those small holes first. Ain't gonna happen.
Click to expand...
Yes, but something like a plastic bag could wrap itself completely around the strainer, blocking it.
 
Dana said:
Yes, but something like a plastic bag could wrap itself completely around the strainer, blocking it.
Click to expand...
Yup. Or a rag. But that small piece of plastic was unlikely to do it, though I would want it out anyway. Some plastics can swell when attacked by fuels (silicone will do that) or they can get slimy and sticky, or they can shrink into a little hard lump as some of the components dissolve out of it.

Maybe 30 years ago some homebuilders were having fuel flow issues with new brass plug valves. The older valves had a machined brass plug, but some company figured they could save money by using a molded plug. These valves were typically used on diesel trucks. Avgas softened that plug, whatever plastic it was they used, and turned it into some sticky snot that went through the system, plugging screens and fittings and so on.

1712272689738.png
 
Oh, that plastic into the fuel tank... bad juju. I can imagine how you must feel.
Now, is this your airplane, are you the only one flying it?

What is that bag from? What are the dimensions? Did you see it go in? Are you sure it went it?
I doubt that would dissolve and disappear...
You may be able to get a cheap UV LED flashlight on Amazon, that may help discover it in the fuel. It might fluoresce cloudy while the fuel remains clear.

IF ALL ELSE FAILS... You and your A&P mechanic can remove the fuel tank. FUN!

All those screws.... the fuel tank on a PA-28 is wing shaped. There is a border of screws that surround it, top and bottom. Underneath, along the inboard side of the tank will be a round inspection cover where (after the tank has been drained, fuel valve [OFF]) where the fuel out hose and the single wire of the fuel level sensor will have to be disconnected.

Do Not use a screw gun, too many chances to strip screws and upon reassembly, too many ham fisted mechanics will allow the momentum of the screw gun to over tighten the screws. [crack them all by hand screwdriver and then use a screw drill to run them out SLOWLY,/ Reinstall them ALMOST all the way with screw drill, then hand torque them to 'snug' by HAND

Hey, like this (or any other forum online) AWAYS return and let us know how this ends. We volunteer here for free. By returning and debriefing us, you help us and the next guy know what works, and what does not.'

Cheers!

;0
 
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