PIC Logging Situation Question

[janikpilot]

Let's say Pilot A goes on a cross country with pilot B. Pilot A is not current (has not made 3 takeoffs/landings within 90 days) but does have a PPL. Pilot B also has a PPL.

Pilot B performs takeoff and landing, and pilot A flies for entire enroute portion.

Is pilot A authorized to log PIC time?

I spent some time digging into the FARs and realized that two pilots could log simultaneous time as PIC time. But I'm curious if the lack of currency and the fact that both pilots are licensed makes this situation different. In addition, if that's the case, what's the difference between this and two pilots flying together, both logging PIC when only one is flying?

 

[MauleSkinner]

What reg would ALLOW both pilots to log PIC on this trip if only one at a time is flying and no one is under the hood?

 

[janikpilot]

What reg would ALLOW both pilots to log PIC on this trip if only one at a time is flying and no one is under the hood?

That's what always confused me about "sole manipulator of controls". If the sole manipulator changes throughout the flight, shouldn't both pilots be allowed to log the time during which they are the sole manipulator?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Yes, but two pilots can't log as "sole manipulator" simultaneously.

Well, yes, they can write in the logbooks at the same time, but my understanding of your OP is that both pilots want to log the entire flight.

 

[acrophile]

Each pilot can log the time that that pilot was the sole manipulator of the controls.

Furthermore, Pilot A could perform and log the takeoff and landing. Pilot B would have to be the PIC, but Pilot A, as the sole manipulator, could log PIC time for the takeoff and landing.

 

[janikpilot]

Yes, but two pilots can't log as "sole manipulator" simultaneously.

Well, yes, they can write in the logbooks at the same time, but my understanding of your OP is that both pilots want to log the entire flight.

Here's my next question then.

Let's say pilot A is not current (per recency requirements) and pilot B is. Pilot A and B go flying, during which BOTH pilots perform takeoffs and landings, only at different times.

Does this mean that pilot A could now be considered current? Despite the fact he obtained his currency by flying with another passenger, that passenger being an appropriately rated pilot?

EDIT: No, that's a misunderstanding. They are not logging the entire flight. They are logging separate times such that the total time of both adds up to the entire flight.

 

[MikeELP]

Here's my next question then.

Let's say pilot A is not current (per recency requirements) and pilot B is. Pilot A and B go flying, during which BOTH pilots perform takeoffs and landings, only at different times.

Does this mean that pilot A could now be considered current? Despite the fact he obtained his currency by flying with another passenger, that passenger being an appropriately rated pilot?

EDIT: No, that's a misunderstanding. They are not logging the entire flight. They are logging separate times such that the total time of both adds up to the entire flight.

Yes. Nothing requires that the takeoffs and landings be solo or with a CFI. Provided he does the needed number of takeoffs and landings to regain currency, he's good to go.

And to add..until he does the needed takeoffs and landings...pilot A is always a passenger. Pilot B remains acting PIC until pilot A becomes current again.

 

[acrophile]

Let's say pilot A is not current (per recency requirements) and pilot B is. Pilot A and B go flying, during which BOTH pilots perform takeoffs and landings, only at different times.

Does this mean that pilot A could now be considered current? Despite the fact he obtained his currency by flying with another passenger, that passenger being an appropriately rated pilot?

Pilot A cannot obtain her currency with a passenger, because she cannot fly at all with a passenger. But Pilot B can be the PIC while Pilot A, as a passenger performing takeoffs and landings, regains her currency.

 

[janikpilot]

Pilot A cannot obtain her currency with a passenger, because she cannot bfly at all with a passenger. But Pilot B can be the PIC while Pilot A, as a passenger performing takeoffs and landings, regains her currency.

But doesn't that conflict with FAR 61.57(a)(2)?

(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.

In this scenario, pilot B is NOT considered a passenger?

 

[MauleSkinner]

EDIT: No, that's a misunderstanding. They are not logging the entire flight. They are logging separate times such that the total time of both adds up to the entire flight.

Ok...I'll buy that, but be careful using impressive words.

si·mul·ta·ne·ous
ˌsīməlˈtānēəs/
adjective
occurring, operating, or done at the same time.

I spent some time digging into the FARs and realized that two pilots could log simultaneous time as PIC time. But I'm curious if the lack of currency and the fact that both pilots are licensed makes this situation different. In addition, if that's the case, what's the difference between this and two pilots flying together, both logging PIC when only one is flying?

 

[MauleSkinner]

But doesn't that conflict with FAR 61.57(a)(2)?



In this scenario, pilot B is NOT considered a passenger?

Pilot B is ACTING as PIC (but cannot log it) while Pilot B is getting current.

 

[acrophile]

But doesn't that conflict with FAR 61.57(a)(2)?

No. FAR 61.74(a)(2) only says Pilot A cannot be the PIC. As I mentioned, Pilot B would have to be the PIC.

In this scenario, pilot B is NOT considered a passenger?

In the scenario I described, Pilot B is the PIC, not a passenger. Pilot A is the passenger, even while manipulating the controls.

 

[DoubleD]

Pilot A cannot act as PIC or log PIC when he/she is not current, and thus cannot legally regain currency in this scenario. End of story.

 

[EdFred]

See my signature.

Pilot A cannot act as PIC or log PIC when he/she is not current, and thus cannot legally regain currency in this scenario. End of story.

Wrong. A rated pilot (of said aircraft) can log PIC anytime they are sole manipulator of the controls. Doesn't matter if they are current, out of medical, whatever. Logging ain't acting, and acting ain't logging.

RIF

 

[acrophile]

Pilot A cannot act as PIC or log PIC when he/she is not current

Half true. Pilot A cannot act as PIC with Pilot B aboard. But Pilot A can certainly log sole-manipulator PIC time with Pilot B aboard and acting as PIC.

and thus cannot legally regain currency in this scenario.

Totally false. Regaining currency does not require either acting as PIC or logging PIC.

End of story.

But not a true story. Why not read the regulations before you post about them?

 

[MikeELP]

Half true. Pilot A cannot act as PIC with Pilot B aboard. But Pilot A can certainly log sole-manipulator PIC time with Pilot B aboard and acting as PIC.

Totally false. Regaining currency does not require either acting as PIC or logging PIC.

I think I said that in post #7

 

[JeffDG]

Totally false. Regaining currency does not require either acting as PIC or logging PIC.

You don't have to log it, but Pilot A must meet be the sole manipulator to log the landings for currency, so could log PIC.

100% true on acting as PIC, otherwise, if you'd been a while, you couldn't go up with a CFI to get current.

 

[MikeELP]

See my signature.



Wrong. A rated pilot (of said aircraft) can log PIC anytime they are sole manipulator of the controls. Doesn't matter if they are current, out of medical, whatever. Logging ain't acting, and acting ain't logging.

RIF

That about sums it up....especially the video!!

 

[acrophile]

I think I said that in post #7

Not explicitly, no.

 

[MikeELP]

Not explicitly, no.

 

[bobmrg]

Here are several links for you:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis Glenn.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...l_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/in terps/2009/Hilliard.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2009/Van Zanen.pdf

In short:
1) Unless the aircraft requires more than one pilot for the ENTIRE flight then only one pilot can log cross country time and only if he or she is the sole manipulator for the ENTIRE flight.
2) A repositioning flight is acceptable to allow the pilot to setup a subsequent flight as a cross country flight.
_


Bob Gardner

 

[MikeELP]

Here are several links for you:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis Glenn.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...l_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/in terps/2009/Hilliard.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2009/Van Zanen.pdf

In short:
1) Unless the aircraft requires more than one pilot for the ENTIRE flight then only one pilot can log cross country time and only if he or she is the sole manipulator for the ENTIRE flight.
2) A repositioning flight is acceptable to allow the pilot to setup a subsequent flight as a cross country flight.
_


Bob Gardner

 

[Kritchlow]

See my signature.



Wrong. A rated pilot (of said aircraft) can log PIC anytime they are sole manipulator of the controls. Doesn't matter if they are current, out of medical, whatever. Logging ain't acting, and acting ain't logging.

RIF

Just curious... Who's the sole manipulator of the controls on this airliner sutuation? The F/O takes off and at 100 feet AGL asks the capt to engage autopilot 2. The captain actually turns the A/P on, and the crew keeps the A/P on for the entire flight including an autoland. The capt turns off the runway and taxis to the gate.

 

[Kritchlow]

BTW... Both crew fully typed in A/C

 

[Henning]

Let's say Pilot A goes on a cross country with pilot B. Pilot A is not current (has not made 3 takeoffs/landings within 90 days) but does have a PPL. Pilot B also has a PPL.

Pilot B performs takeoff and landing, and pilot A flies for entire enroute portion.

Is pilot A authorized to log PIC time?

I spent some time digging into the FARs and realized that two pilots could log simultaneous time as PIC time. But I'm curious if the lack of currency and the fact that both pilots are licensed makes this situation different. In addition, if that's the case, what's the difference between this and two pilots flying together, both logging PIC when only one is flying?

I think in order for him to log the flight, he either has to be solo or with a CFI.

 

[ja_user]

Here are several links for you:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis Glenn.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...l_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/in terps/2009/Hilliard.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2009/Van Zanen.pdf

In short:
1) Unless the aircraft requires more than one pilot for the ENTIRE flight then only one pilot can log cross country time and only if he or she is the sole manipulator for the ENTIRE flight.
2) A repositioning flight is acceptable to allow the pilot to setup a subsequent flight as a cross country flight.
_


Bob Gardner

What if it is a CFI and student?

 

[poadeleted20]

Let's say Pilot A goes on a cross country with pilot B. Pilot A is not current (has not made 3 takeoffs/landings within 90 days) but does have a PPL. Pilot B also has a PPL.

...as well as being fully qualified to be PIC for this flight with a passenger (Pilot A), including those 3 takeoffs/landings.

Pilot B performs takeoff and landing, and pilot A flies for entire enroute portion.

Is pilot A authorized to log PIC time?

Yes, for the portion of the flight during which s/he was the sole manipulator of the controls. Pilot B logs as PIC time the remaining time during which s/he was the sole manipulator. See 14 CFR 61.51(e).

However, not having done the takeoff/landing, Pilot A is not authorized to log XC time. See the Glenn interpretation.

And since there was no point at which two pilots were required by the regulations, there is no "double logging" (i.e., both pilots logging time at the same time).

 

[poadeleted20]

Here's my next question then.

Let's say pilot A is not current (per recency requirements) and pilot B is. Pilot A and B go flying, during which BOTH pilots perform takeoffs and landings, only at different times.

Does this mean that pilot A could now be considered current?

Yes -- Pilot A performed three takeoffs and landings as sole manipulator, and thus meets the requirement of 61.57(a).

Despite the fact he obtained his currency by flying with another passenger, that passenger being an appropriately rated pilot?

You've got it backwards -- Pilot A is a passenger even when s/he is flying the plane. Pilot B remains the PIC regardless of which of them is flying the plane. Pilot A may be able to log the time as PIC time under 61.51(e)(1)(i), but Pilot A cannot be the PIC since Pilot A doesn't meet the 61.57(a) to act as PIC.

 

[poadeleted20]

But doesn't that conflict with FAR 61.57(a)(2)?

No.

In this scenario, pilot B is NOT considered a passenger?

That's correct -- Pilot B remains the PIC for the entire flight, while Pilot A is considered Pilot B's passenger for the entire flight. The fact that Pilot A is rated in the aircraft allows Pilot A to log PIC time while s/he is the sole manipulator of the controls, but Pilot A remains a passenger and Pilot B remains PIC even while Pilot A is flying the plane. This is the difference between logging PIC time and being the PIC, which are different issues governed by different regulations.

 

[poadeleted20]

Just curious... Who's the sole manipulator of the controls on this airliner sutuation? The F/O takes off and at 100 feet AGL asks the capt to engage autopilot 2. The captain actually turns the A/P on, and the crew keeps the A/P on for the entire flight including an autoland. The capt turns off the runway and taxis to the gate.

The F/O is the sole manipulator for the time s/he is controlling the plane. The Captain is the sole manipulator for the time s/he is controlling the plane. As you describe it, it appears they are taking turns being the sole manipulator.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think in order for him to log the flight, he either has to be solo or with a CFI.

I think you should read 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i) again. Nothing there says a rated pilot has to be either solo or with a CFI to log sole manipulator time.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights- (i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

 

[poadeleted20]

What if it is a CFI and student?

Then the Student Pilot is not logging PIC time, since the only way a Student Pilot can log PIC time is as the sole occupant (the airship exception notwithstanding). The Student can certainly log it as XC training time, but not XC PIC time, and this part of the discussion is about XC PIC time. And since this discussion is about two PP's flying together (no instructor involved), there is no training time to be logged by either.

 

[Henning]

I think you should read 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i) again. Nothing there says a rated pilot has to be either solo or with a CFI to log sole manipulator time.

I guess, if logging every minute for numbers in a book is what you want, why not. What good does it do them though? They can't get current because they can't do the take offs and landings.

 

[EdFred]

What good does it do them though, they can't get current because they can't do the take offs and landings.

Just when I thought I wouldn't read anything dumber in this thread.

 

[Henning]

Just when I thought I wouldn't read anything dumber in this thread.

Think about it for a minute. If there is no one under the hood, there is only one PIC correct? Since the other person is not a CFI, they are a passenger. Unless you are current on take offs and landings, you cannot act as PIC during that phase of flight, so how can you log it?

 

[poadeleted20]

It sure seems to me that pilot A is not (legally) authorized to carry passengers as PIC because of unsatisfied currency requirements. If the (current and legal) pilot B hands the controls to pilot A, he has made himself a passenger in an aircraft piloted by a non-current pilot.

No, he has not. He remains the PIC no matter who's manipulating the controls.

I am in agreement that pilot A should effect his currency requirements solo or with a CFI - in either case he can legitimately log the take-offs and landings as PIC.

There is no requirement in 61.57(a) to be the PIC to log the landings -- only to be the sole manipulator of the controls. Of course, I have certain safety reservations about a non-instructor acting as PIC while a non-current pilot flies the plane unless that PIC has some additional training/experience in flying from the right seat and can effectively evaluate the flying pilot's performance and safely intervene and take control when necessary. But the fundamental legality issues are well-established -- the described operation is completely legal and Pilot A can log it as PIC time per 61.51 and log the landings for 61.57(a) purposes.

A training or instructional (usually it is supervision in a case like this) flight gets a dispensation from the FAA who (rightfully) puts the responsibility on the CFI (who can walk on water).

It's no different here -- as PIC, Pilot B is entirely responsible for anything that happens while Pilot A is flying the plane. For that reason, unless Pilot B has some additional training/experience beyond what PP's normally get, Pilot B might be unwise to accept that responsibility. But that's not a legal issue, just a safe/smart issue.

 

[poadeleted20]

I guess, if logging every minute for numbers in a book is what you want, why not. What good does it do them though? They can't get current because they can't do the take offs and landings.

What makes you think they can't? The scenario as described in Post #1 is entirely legal, and Pilot A can legally both do the takeoffs and landings and log them for 61.57(a) currency.

 

[Henning]

What makes you think they can't? The scenario as described in Post #1 is entirely legal, and Pilot A can legally both do the takeoffs and landings and log them for 61.57(a) currency.

Huh, I was always told that to get currency you had to be solo or with a CFI, of course this information comes from CFIs

 

[poadeleted20]

Think about it for a minute. If there is no one under the hood, there is only one PIC correct? Since the other person is not a CFI, they are a passenger. Unless you are current on take offs and landings, you cannot act as PIC during that phase of flight, so how can you log it?

Because logging PIC time and acting as PIC are two different issues covered by different regulations. Nothing in 61.51(e)(1)(i) says you have to be the PIC in order to log PIC time as sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated, and nothing in 61.57(a) says you have to be the PIC in order to log landings as sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft. I think what you are missing is that Pilot B remains the legal PIC for the entire flight while Pilot A remains the passenger for the entire flight regardless of which of them is manipulating the controls, but that has no bearing on Pilot A being able to log PIC time and landings for 61.51(e) and 61.57(a) purposes.

 

[poadeleted20]

Huh, I was always told that to get currency you had to be solo or with a CFI, of course this information comes from CFIs

You should have asked that CFI to show you the regulations which say that. I suggest you read the regs I've cited above to support my statements.