Phillips 66 pauses 100 unleaded development

PaulMillner

PaulMillner

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Paul Millner
AVWEB reports this morning that Phillips has paused unleaded avgas testing due to failure of the fuel.

That leaves Swift, who says their fuel may not satisfy all of the fleet, Lyondell who plans to combine Swift's and Phillips technologies for a best/worst mashup, and of course GAMI's fuel that's approved and flying in demonstration aircraft.

www.avweb.com

Phillips 66 Suspends Unleaded Avgas Testing - AVweb

Phillips 66 has “paused” evaluation of its unleaded avgas alternative after what sources have told AVweb was a major test failure. Phillips 66 confirmed to AVweb that evaluation of the fuel it is developing with Afton Chemicals through the Piston Engine Aviation Fuels Initiative has been...
www.avweb.com www.avweb.com
 
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I have been using swift UL 94 in my Cessna 150. Other than it being expensive it’s also hard to find. The more companies that get involved the better for competition. I have yet to see an airport with GAMI 100
 
So we're holding the bus for Philips and others while the GAMI 100UL is ready to go?

FYI, the Philips 100UL is not deposit free, as it contains methylcyclopentadienylmanganese tricarbonyl (MMT) as an octane enhancer. This fuel can produce manganese deposits in an engine, much like TEL can produce lead deposits. (However, MMT concentrations are much lower than that for TEL.)
 
There is no bus. There is an approval to have a bus. You can pay $money dollars ($1200 for my ticket) for your fare to board the approved bus when or if it may appear. There is no bus, nor talk of when a bus may appear, nor talk of why the bus is nowhere to be found yet.

Until proven otherwise, this is a "short bus" from where I sit, and I'll wait for other options before buying a ticket
 
chemgeek said:
So we're holding the bus for Philips and others while the GAMI 100UL is ready to go?

FYI, the Philips 100UL is not deposit free, as it contains methylcyclopentadienylmanganese tricarbonyl (MMT) as an octane enhancer. This fuel can produce manganese deposits in an engine, much like TEL can produce lead deposits. (However, MMT concentrations are much lower than that for TEL.)
Click to expand...
The amount of Mn in mogas is minimal compared to Pb in 100UL.
TEL adds 0.56 g/L of Pb into Avgas--2.1g/gal.
MMT adds at maximum 0.033g/L = 0.125g/gal to mogas.
However, I don't know how much MMT Phillips was using in its formulation.

chemgeek, do you know?

Mn is also much less toxic than Pb.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
If G100UL is ready to go, what is it waiting on?
Click to expand...
100LL to be outlawed or otherwise unavailable.

If you owned an FBO and had only one tank, would you place an order for G100 at a higher price when 100LL is still available?
 
Domenick said:
The amount of Mn in mogas is minimal compared to Pb in 100UL.
TEL adds 0.56 g/L of Pb into Avgas--2.1g/gal.
MMT adds at maximum 0.033g/L = 0.125g/gal to mogas.
However, I don't know how much MMT Phillips was using in its formulation.

chemgeek, do you know?

Mn is also much less toxic than Pb.
Click to expand...
wow, 2.1g/gal Pb is more than I expected.
 
Half Fast said:
A producer and a distributor.
Click to expand...
If that’s the case it isn’t really ready to go.

Dana said:
100LL to be outlawed or otherwise unavailable.

If you owned an FBO and had only one tank, would you place an order for G100 at a higher price when 100LL is still available?
Click to expand...

So it’s awaiting a demand, and the demand is awaiting the heavy hand of government. Doesn’t sound like something we should be cheering for.
 
Dana said:
100LL to be outlawed or otherwise unavailable.

If you owned an FBO and had only one tank, would you place an order for G100 at a higher price when 100LL is still available?
Click to expand...

If I was at an airport where 100LL has already been banned, yes. It's bizarre that GAMI isn't already selling G100UL at one of those fields.
 
I wonder if the money that the feds are putting into EAGLE would be enough to buy G100UL STCs for all piston aircraft.
 
Palmpilot said:
I wonder if the money that the feds are putting into EAGLE would be enough to buy G100UL STCs for all piston aircraft.
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www.pilotsofamerica.com

GAMI G100UL STC available now

I'm just gonna carry some blue food coloring with me, and if I run into a place that has only this, top 'er off, and add the food coloring in case of ramp check. An STC for this is ********. Just make the money on the sale of the fuel, like they're doing anyway. not going to pay for an STC...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com

Apparently they've floated that idea.
 
schmookeeg said:
Today I learned. Weird that it's approvable on the 225hp debs but not the mice.

Edit -- that was an interesting little rabbit-hole. https://www.beechaeroclub.org/frequ...-planes-check-out-the-link-belowhttp-ww/1987/
Click to expand...

TLDR:
...the Sundowner they tried had such severe vapor lock that the airplane had to be towed from the runway after a dead-stick landing. The particular test that it failed was the one where the fuel is heated to 120 F and the aircraft flown to around 10,000 feet at the maximum rate of climb. The combination of fuel line routing, tubing diameter, and the fact that the fuel system requires a pump, all make an autogas STC a distant dream.

Mine is a B23, basically a Sundowner without the pilot door. No mogas for me, so I’m stuck waiting for GAMI-gas.
 
Half Fast said:
TLDR:
...the Sundowner they tried had such severe vapor lock that the airplane had to be towed from the runway after a dead-stick landing. The particular test that it failed was the one where the fuel is heated to 120 F and the aircraft flown to around 10,000 feet at the maximum rate of climb. The combination of fuel line routing, tubing diameter, and the fact that the fuel system requires a pump, all make an autogas STC a distant dream.

Mine is a B23, basically a Sundowner without the pilot door. No mogas for me, so I’m stuck waiting for GAMI-gas.
Click to expand...
Some of the Cherokee's are like that also.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Some of the Cherokee's are like that also.
Click to expand...
Anything but the 140 I believe. I can get the STC for my 180. But I'd have to buy and install a 2 new fuel pumps. I want to say the stc with all hardware was 3200

"In some airframes equipped with suction lift fuel systems (pump fed systems), different electric fuel pumps may need to be installed to insure adequate fuel flow, and/or the fuel pump locations must be moved. The STC for the PA-28-160, -161, -180, -181 requires the removal of the factory installed electric pump. This pump is replaced with two completely different pumps and a revised fuel system forward of the firewall. Installation on this airplane takes between four and six hours, approximately double that on 24 volt PA-28's."
 
Palmpilot said:
I wonder if the money that the feds are putting into EAGLE would be enough to buy G100UL STCs for all piston aircraft.
Click to expand...
"Hello committee. We would like to take all the money that we are giving you and instead give it to someone else. Do you approve?"
 
Katamarino said:
If I was at an airport where 100LL has already been banned, yes. It's bizarre that GAMI isn't already selling G100UL at one of those fields.
Click to expand...
There's a lot of talk about it, but how many places have actually banned 100LL so far? There will have to be enough to entice the producer and distributor to start up.
 
Dana said:
There's a lot of talk about it, but how many places have actually banned 100LL so far? There will have to be enough to entice the producer and distributor to start up.
Click to expand...

I'd think RHV and E16 alone could consume a few tankers a week of 100LL-substitute. How much is an enticement for these blenders? I thought the magic was anyone could blend the stuff anywhere in any amount.
 
schmookeeg said:
I'd think RHV and E16 alone could consume a few tankers a week of 100LL-substitute. How much is an enticement for these blenders? I thought the magic was anyone could blend the stuff anywhere in any amount.
Click to expand...
We got sold a bill of goods.....apparently not that easy or cheap to make. ;)
 
schmookeeg said:
I'd think RHV and E16 alone could consume a few tankers a week of 100LL-substitute. How much is an enticement for these blenders? I thought the magic was anyone could blend the stuff anywhere in any amount.
Click to expand...

Santa Clara County (RHV and E16) doesn't want to sell fuel, they want to give the airports to the developers.

When they banned 100LL and switched to 94UL, they also switched to having the county sell the fuel directly instead of selling through the FBOs. This was so that the FBOs will make less profit and hopefully go out of business and increase the costs to the county (since they had to buy and staff the fuel trucks) so they can claim the airports are too costly to maintain.

Bringing in 100UL will make more planes want to stay and let the county sell more fuel, two things they don't want to happen.
 
I wonder if the county ever used "lead" as their reason for taking over. Now they have what they wanted and are blocking progress?

GAMI may have a case if they were sold a bill of lies, acted, succeeded, and are now left holding a bag. It would be an amusing case to request Santa Clara county to reimburse GAMI's R&D expenses for their fraudulent ways, then sue for damages when they get ignored. :D
 
asicer said:
"Hello committee. We would like to take all the money that we are giving you and instead give it to someone else. Do you approve?"
Click to expand...
I'm assuming it would take an act of Congress.
 
clear_prop said:
Santa Clara County (RHV and E16) doesn't want to sell fuel, they want to give the airports to the developers.

When they banned 100LL and switched to 94UL, they also switched to having the county sell the fuel directly instead of selling through the FBOs. This was so that the FBOs will make less profit and hopefully go out of business and increase the costs to the county (since they had to buy and staff the fuel trucks) so they can claim the airports are too costly to maintain.

Bringing in 100UL will make more planes want to stay and let the county sell more fuel, two things they don't want to happen.
Click to expand...
If the County prevented G100UL from being available at its airports, that would expose the 100LL ban as the airport-closure pretext that it is.
 
Domenick said:
The amount of Mn in mogas is minimal compared to Pb in 100UL.
TEL adds 0.56 g/L of Pb into Avgas--2.1g/gal.
MMT adds at maximum 0.033g/L = 0.125g/gal to mogas.
However, I don't know how much MMT Phillips was using in its formulation.

chemgeek, do you know?

Mn is also much less toxic than Pb.
Click to expand...
While Mn salts are less toxic than lead salts, MMT itself is quite toxic, rating a 4 on the NEPA scale for toxicity compared to 1 for TEL according the the MSDS. MMT is readily absorbed through the skin. Both materials require special handling.
 
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