Personal Minimums for Instrument Currency

455 Bravo Uniform

455 Bravo Uniform

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455 Bravo Uniform
I got my instrument rating Saturday. This is a bit of a “survey” question to get a feel for what some of you do for currency in actual.

(1) Similar to doing T&Gs or just boring holes in the sky, if you have nothing to do on an IFR day, do you take advantage and go up?

(2) If so, how low does the ceiling have to be before you say “risk not worth the reward”?

This is not a proficiency question or a foggles + safety pilot (or IPC) debate. Just wondering how many do this and your desired ceiling to meet whatever your goal is.

It’s totally fair to chime in and say “never”.
 
I won't launch in my plane if it is predicted to be at ILS minimums at my destination. 500-1 is the worst forecast I will tolerate, MVFR is better, for a light single with no icing protection and limited reserves. I will always plan to know where the nearest VFR is or is likely to be.

En route weather (convection and icing) is usually a bigger concern than destination ceilings.

I do IPCs every 6 months or so, and have been rated for 30 years. I file IFR on most trips, but rarely wind up flying in worse than MVFR conditions. Light singles are just not all-weather aircraft. But you can get in and out in otherwise very miserable MVFR conditions, cruising above or between layers.

Having said this, you must still be prepared to fly safely to minimums. I've made trips where the destination forecast was VFR and wound up flying the ILS to get in. Forecasts have a habit of not always being right.
 
chemgeek said:
I won't launch in my plane if it is predicted to be at ILS minimums at my destination. 500-1 is the worst forecast I will tolerate, MVFR is better, for a light single with no icing protection and limited reserves. I will always plan to know where the nearest VFR is or is likely to be.

En route weather (convection and icing) is usually a bigger concern than destination ceilings.

I do IPCs every 6 months or so, and have been rated for 30 years. I file IFR on most trips, but rarely wind up flying in worse than MVFR conditions. Light singles are just not all-weather aircraft. But you can get in and out in otherwise very miserable MVFR conditions, cruising above or between layers.

Having said this, you must still be prepared to fly safely to minimums. I've made trips where the destination forecast was VFR and wound up flying the ILS to get in. Forecasts have a habit of not always being right.
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THIS.
I’m in claims so I’m kinda jaded from seeing all the crashes over the years. Small SEPs are not really made to take on “real” IMC aka icing. Yes there are FIKI mods but what I fly doesn’t have any of that. I file IFR for probably half of my flights even if VMC. Usually I won’t go unless the Destination ceiling is at pattern altitude or forecasted to be when I take off. Luckily I have a flying job without any pressure to actually fly myself(vs. driving/airlines), so I don’t push it. Real IMC at night? Never. I have no need. The young me would tell the old me “you P&*y! Get out there and fly!”. But the oldish me is much wiser.
 
Practice doesn’t make perfect, but it’s One of he few steps to maintain any kind of real proficiency.

if you have the opportunity and ability to fly practice approaches in IMC, go for it. Whatever personal minimums you have for IFR flight are probably good to apply, but I’d probably make sure I could get home, too. ;)
 
So I'm only what....3 months in, but so far I've been successful in going up on a 'friendly ifr' or mvfr day and getting in some loggable approaches every month. It's been a great confidence boost, and will obviously keep me current if I keep it up. The upcoming winter months will be hard, though.

My current personal minimum is mvfr, 1000-3. I don't see that coming down much in the future. If you lose your engine, that doesn't leave much time/options after coming out of the clouds. I reserve the right to raise my minimum if I'm going to fly over terrain less friendly than flat as a pancake central IL. For staying close to the home base to do a couple approaches I'm okay with a bit less. Launched into 700 ovc last month that dropped to about 550-600 on my last approach. Happened to be a CTL and put me right at minimums; it was surprisingly fun.

Those first couple times doing it solo were a bit scary for me, ymmv. Id recommend starting with weather just below the FAF and working your way down.

Congrats on passing your checkride!
 
Geosync said:
Real IMC at night
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What is "real" IMC? Night flying might as well be IFR anyway..

455 Bravo Uniform said:
do you take advantage and go up?
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Yes. But ice is a non-starter or any kind of thunderstorm or lightning activity

455 Bravo Uniform said:
risk not worth the reward
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If there's no ice and I'm proficient in the airplane and I'm comfortable with the instruments and I have redundancy and some outs than I don't see anything wrong with using the published approach minimums.. you can always go around if things don't look right and if you are legal then you found an alternate and if you are smart then you have outs (a vfr/mvfr airport that you have enough gas to get to)
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I got my instrument rating Saturday. This is a bit of a “survey” question to get a feel for what some of you do for currency in actual.

(1) Similar to doing T&Gs or just boring holes in the sky, if you have nothing to do on an IFR day, do you take advantage and go up?

(2) If so, how low does the ceiling have to be before you say “risk not worth the reward”?

This is not a proficiency question or a foggles + safety pilot (or IPC) debate. Just wondering how many do this and your desired ceiling to meet whatever your goal is.

It’s totally fair to chime in and say “never”.
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Congrats on earning the ticket. I have nothing to add, but a pirep on the ride is appreciated.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I got my instrument rating Saturday
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I totally missed this part of your post like an ****ole. Congrats!! For the first year I always landed vfr and departure was always at least pattern altitude at least. Cloud deck not too thick

I expanded from there

Minimums are good, but I don't think you can be too rigid with them either period every flight is going to be a compromise of a number of factors. Maybe the layer is lower than you would like but it's very thin (like 300 ft fog/overcast) .. or maybe the layer is high (4K) but tops are 15K.. but it's scattered

Each flight is its own unique event that should be independently assessed
 
WannFly said:
Congrats on earning the ticket. I have nothing to add, but a pirep on the ride is appreciated.
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Thanks! The training was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. The oral and test flight were a piece of cake.

Oral - In my case was a conversation. First we logged on to IACRA. Then we talked about what we would do. Then we got into the meat & potatoes. I was asked to walk through my mock flight plan and why I made the choices I made; Discussed WX and alternate planning and all those “what ifs”. Talked about WX conditions to file, filing, closing. Currency, how to maintain or regain. It took about 2 hrs.

Flight - I’m PIC. Mock clearance. I handled radio traffic.

First did a VOR-A circling approach, climb & maintain, direct to fix, teardrop to the hold, went to partial panel in the hold, went missed at MAP (modified missed to set up for next approach).

Next, RNAV 10 LNAV direct to the intermediate fix heading 280, entered hold and then inbound we did 2 unusual attitudes, continued to MDA, went missed, but followed modified missed instructions to go back west for the next approach.

Finally, did ILS 10, using vectors and got established. Foggles came off at 200 agl.

Taxied back and did paperwork. Got a paper temp cert and got my beloved plastic invalidated with a punch.

Feelings: Major accomplishment, then (funny) a bit of sadness that training was over. Next choices - glider, tailwheel, commercial; maybe some aerobatics training. But I’ll wait until summer or later. I’m still tired, lol.
 
Cirrus has done a good job with this, they have checklist with points based on currency and hours flown. I did it when I got my IFR ticket about 2 years ago and redo it about every 6 months ( the checklist) Basically it categorizes you into 1 of 3 buckets based on a point system. The first is green circle level, which is 1500 foot ceiling and 3 SM vis, the second blue square level which is 500 feet / 2SM above published mins. The third is the black diamond level which is published mins.

Getting to the black diamond level requires a lot of flying and approaches. I'm solidly a blue square pilot and that's what I stick with.

I suspect that many if not most GA private pilots who regularly fly IFR would fall into the +500/ 2SM category.

Congrats and welcome to the club, be safe!
 
One complaint I have about instrument training is that ceiling always seems to be the major concern, with limited discussion on visibility. The 1st post in this thread seems to reflect this.

Since ceiling is all that was asked about, my personal threshold for local currency flights or taking students up is 500'. The reason has nothing to do with my skill or comfort level but it has everything to do with getting back into the airport I want to end the flight at without having to go somewhere else and wait for conditions to improve.
 
Whatever is on the approach plate.

I like to have an out as the weather can get worse, but other than that I’m good with it. I avoid ice and thunderstorms like the plague though, even for travel.

My last “practice” in IMC I went missed for real on two RNAV approaches. The first was a LPV. o_O :eek: The second a standard LNAV. Back at the home drome the ILS was easy at 500’. The weather was just oddly low around those other two.

I really like it around 400’ where I have to go missed on a standard LNAV GPS approach, but the ILS back at home is still easy. Keeps one in practice of doing the missed in IMC. I’ve shot one that automated weather reported at 100’. The pilot with my was surprised. I said if we see a runway by 200’ we land, otherwise we go missed. What’s the big deal? :cool: We broke out at 280’ and landed.
 
Congrats on the instrument rating!
Go do your tailwheel next - exact opposite of what you just completed. And just as much fun too.
 
asicer said:
You actually get that in San Diego?
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not so much here haha but you do pick it up if you're up in the Bay area or going towards Tahoe or Mammoth for skiing
 
A lot of my CFI work this past year has been with pilots looking to get more experience in the clouds - instrument proficiency, not just currency.

As such, I NEED to push their comfort zone a little bit. It's why they're hiring me to go with them. And therefore my minimums are pretty much based solely around the desire to get back to the home airport where my car is. So it depends more on expected changes in the weather than anything else. My main airport has LPV with a 250ft HAT to the one runway, but an LNAV to 587 HAT on the other runway. Depending on the way the wind is blowing, I will depart with either about 400 OVC or 700 OVC weather. A little above minimums, but low enough to get good experience. I've even gone lower, with the pilot's concurrence, that if we need to we can land at the next airport over with ILS and LPV to 200 HAT and catch an Uber back. (Haven't actually had to Uber for this yet, but it's an option we talk about, and can give real good, low experience.)

Also, often here we seem to have a scenario where the "city" airports are decent weather, maybe 600 OVC or above (even MVFR sometimes), but the airports 15 miles away or so are at or below minimums. A few times we've had to do a real missed approach, not seeing the runway at all, at a nearby airport but then an easy approach back into home. You just can't beat training like that, and I have a couple of pilots who will give me a call almost anytime the ceilings get below 1000.
 
When I got my rating or I hadn't been flying to mins (or doing an IPC regularly), I would work my way to lower ceiling/visibility. I always tried to stay comfortable flying to minimums given my travel patterns. Even at that, the first time into KNEW on the ILS over the Lake was eye opening. There really was no difference between the color of the sky and the color of the lake... the rabbit lights were critical to making it in. I was better prepared the next time.

So work your way up to it.
 
wayne said:
I’ve shot one that automated weather reported at 100’. The pilot with my was surprised. I said if we see a runway by 200’ we land, otherwise we go missed.
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remember that seeing the runway at 100’ HAT is legal if you’ve got approach lights by minimums...works for an MDA as well. :)
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
(1) Similar to doing T&Gs or just boring holes in the sky, if you have nothing to do on an IFR day, do you take advantage and go up?

(2) If so, how low does the ceiling have to be
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1). Heck yeah
2). I don’t want to risk it going below mins at the airport I am at. I would feel silly having taken a couple of hours in the air only to wind up 50+ miles away.

Along with Tantalum, ice and convective activity makes it a non-starter.
 
MauleSkinner said:
remember that seeing the runway at 100’ HAT is legal if you’ve got approach lights by minimums...works for an MDA as well. :)
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Yep. I've done that twice at LZU on a standard LNAV GPS. :D That was my home airport for several years. The first time I was coming back home and could see on the ADS-B data that the ceiling was dropping and that it would be close by the time I got there. I also saw that the winds were very light, so the ILS in the opposite direction was an easy "Plan B". But, I got a good view of the lights and starting dropping 100' feet and didn't need much of it to see the runway. That it was just around sunset with clouds above made it even easier to see the lights.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I got my instrument rating Saturday. This is a bit of a “survey” question to get a feel for what some of you do for currency in actual.
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(1) Similar to doing T&Gs or just boring holes in the sky, if you have nothing to do on an IFR day, do you take advantage and go up?

Yes, but it's getting to the icing season here in the Mid-Atlantic and ice belongs in cocktails not on my airframe.

(2) If so, how low does the ceiling have to be before you say “risk not worth the reward”?

Marginal VFR is my favorite IFR. :D But I've gotten to the point that I'll launch if the forecast is stable and not predicted worse than 800 foot.

Enjoy the rating, it's truly satisfying to break out coming home while so many others are grounded.
 
With the ink still drying on your certificate, I would go out and get some more IMC skills using what I call "happy IFR." This is marginal VFR or better weather with at least 500' above the lowest approach minimums.

Get used to coming out of the clouds where you want to be and when you want to be there. File for a block altitude and play in and out of the clouds knowing you always have an out.
 
I find a low-IFR day and take another IFR pilot with me to shoot approaches, even to minimums. I guess I'll add there is no ice, so maybe that's not "real IMC" but 300/1.25 is great practice. No reason to do it single pilot if you don't have to, though.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Just so nobody’s confused, you can descend TO 100’ HAT on the approach lights.:cool:
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Wow, I've had the wrong this whole time. Maybe I was thinking of an ILS and thought it was an extra 100' lower. Jeez. :oops:

Thanks! I looked that up and learned something new today, that I should have learned years ago.
 
wayne said:
Wow, I've had the wrong this whole time. Maybe I was thinking of an ILS and thought it was an extra 100' lower. Jeez. :oops:

Thanks! I looked that up and learned something new today, that I should have learned years ago.
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Common mistake...that’s why I noticed it. :)
 
chemgeek said:
Having said this, you must still be prepared to fly safely to minimums. I've made trips where the destination forecast was VFR and wound up flying the ILS to get in. Forecasts have a habit of not always being right.
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^^ this.

If you can’t fly to the minimum standard of the rating on the day it was issued, get instruction or at least a safety pilot and fix it.

It’s a minimum standard. Don’t shoot for minimum standards in life.
 
It's quite a logical argument that, the day you receive your ink'd Instrument Rating is one of your most proficient moments.

Instead of suddenly raising your personal minimums to 1,000 foot ceilings, or broken layers, it can be argued that you should instead take advantage of your proven proficiency and accent it with real world experience.
 
Indeed, congrats on earning the IR. Two additional thoughts:
  • If you are going to be instrument rated, use it. It's a "use it or lose it" skill. I know too many instrument rated pilots that are afraid of IMC, and have no confidence in their skills or ability to safely conduct instrument flight in IMC. If you trained like you fly, then you can fly like you trained. You will discover your own comfort level with weather conditions as you get some real trips under your belt.
  • Night XC is in my mind always an IFR operation. I did VFR night XC when I was younger and maybe less aware or oblivious to potential risks. Everly little anomaly gets magnified during night flight. It's easy to file IFR, and that increases the safety level for night XC and terrain avoidance at your destination.
Enjoy your well-earned rating.
 
Rgbeard said:
It's quite a logical argument that, the day you receive your ink'd Instrument Rating is one of your most proficient moments.

Instead of suddenly raising your personal minimums to 1,000 foot ceilings, or broken layers, it can be argued that you should instead take advantage of your proven proficiency and accent it with real world experience.
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100% agree with this. Where I think personal minimums ought to apply to the new IFR pilot that create some safety margin is in flying around convective weather. That's where experience and judgement are applied in a more nuanced fashion. Flying in stable air with low clouds and poor visibility is more proficiency based and a new IFR pilot is likely to be sharper and more capable than the 10 year veteran who needs to knock some rust off the checklists.
 
wayne said:
Wow, I've had the wrong this whole time. Maybe I was thinking of an ILS and thought it was an extra 100' lower. Jeez. :oops:

Thanks! I looked that up and learned something new today, that I should have learned years ago.
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Most people get that one wrong because they associate it only with an ILS with 200 ft minimums.
 
Rgbeard said:
It's quite a logical argument that, the day you receive your ink'd Instrument Rating is one of your most proficient moments.

Instead of suddenly raising your personal minimums to 1,000 foot ceilings, or broken layers, it can be argued that you should instead take advantage of your proven proficiency and accent it with real world experience.
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Not sure I agree with this. All actual instrument flying is done with an accomplished instructor by your side up until you get that cert. Then you are suddenly by yourself with out that back up next to you. I agree that every IFR pilot should be proficient at flying to minimums and work to maintain that proficiency. But in real life scenarios it's prudent to raise your minimums for an extra safety margin. There are many youtube pilots who feel they are great pilots, showing approaches to minimums, some even lower. Most of them are great, but some leave a lot to be desired.

At the end of the day you are free to fly to those minimums when you are certified though, it's probably not the best idea for many pilots.
 
Kritchlow said:
You are absolutely correct, but it still baffles me doing so on (certain) non precision approaches... especially before GPS when most had no vertical guidance.
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On some NPAs it’s the only way you’re going to be able to make a stabilized approach...for example, the. OR 11L at KTUS has an MDA of 421’ HAT with a Cat C RVR of 4000’. If you don’t see the approach lights and/or continue past the VDP until you see the runway, you could be looking at a 6-degree or steeper approach angle to the TDZ.

Yes, you need to put in the effort ahead of time to plan the point at which you can/should leave MDA if you see the approach lights, but to me that’s just part of being ahead of the airplane.
 
MauleSkinner said:
On some NPAs it’s the only way you’re going to be able to make a stabilized approach...for example, the. OR 11L at KTUS has an MDA of 421’ HAT with a Cat C RVR of 4000’. If you don’t see the approach lights and/or continue past the VDP until you see the runway, you could be looking at a 6-degree or steeper approach angle to the TDZ.

Yes, you need to put in the effort ahead of time to plan the point at which you can/should leave MDA if you see the approach lights, but to me that’s just part of being ahead of the airplane.
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Indeed I am aware of what you speak, however it still is a bit unnerving to descend in that situation without guidance. JMO.
 
KeepWatch said:
100% agree with this. Where I think personal minimums ought to apply to the new IFR pilot that create some safety margin is in flying around convective weather. That's where experience and judgement are applied in a more nuanced fashion.
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No nuance needed. If you were flying in or too close to thunderstorms VFR you’d be dead too. LOL.

Everyone who ventures enough times closer than the recommended wide berth (20 miles) eventually gains a story to tell and never goes that close again.

Me: Raises hand. LOL
 
Kritchlow said:
Indeed I am aware of what you speak, however it still is a bit unnerving to descend in that situation without guidance. JMO.
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Yeah, been a long time since I’ve done it based on timing the procedure, but I’d still be pretty comfortable with DME guidance.
 
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