Pdk Airshow Crash

RoscoeT said:
You don't know he didn't have an elevator problem. You made a definitive statement on that subject. You don't know if he was incapacitated. And what's your point about the smoke? I thought he was incapacitated? Smoke looked normal to me. Engine was making power. I guess I'm just tired of armchair speculation based on seeing a video. What's the point? From your description of things, you don't seem like you're exactly entrenched in aerobatics.
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I guess I should just fold and say I don't really know and it was sad watching the various angles of video I found. I will leave this alone and wait until the NTSB enlightens us in the future. Thank you for helping me realize the errors I furthered. I will refrain from further speculation and have deleted my previous posts to avoid accidentally influencing others by my opinions. I apologize for offending your sensibilities. Peace out.
 
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hindsight2020 said:
hey, if I wanted to wait 2 years for an over-tasked civil servant to describe the water for me and otherwise carte blanche blame the pilot when all there is is a smoking hole and no data, I'd have ntsb.gov hotlinked already.
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Well, hindsight is 20/20 dontchaknow...

:cool:
 
RoscoeT said:
... I guess I'm just tired of armchair speculation based on seeing a video...
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Reading (and being enlightened/entertained by) the "armchair speculation" is exactly why I read these posts...
 
Connel's old flight instructor weighs in:
Connell's flight instructor Bob Smith spoke with Channel 2's Matt Johnson.
Smith says he taught Connell how to fly in Augusta 27 years ago.
"He had the psyche, the desire to be one of a kind," Smith said.
Smith told Johnson his heart dropped when he saw video of the crash posted on social media.
Smith says there are clues as to what may have went wrong starting with how low Connell was to the ground before making the loop.
"He kind of made a downward pitch to pick up air speed right at the end there, but he was really too close to the ground to get enough air speed to make the complete loop," Smith said. "He got almost to the top of the loop and his airspeed let off so bad that I think he lost control and that the plane stalled.
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http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/dek...-greg-connell-killed-during-airshow/284104168
 
Good Lord I hate the media. Really... they went to an instructor from 27 years ago for an expert opinion?? One news site had an expert analyst that pointed out the downward pitch at the top of the cuban as "an obvious aircraft malfunction". And then this instructor claims that a 300+ hp carbon fiber Wolf can't complete a loop with 500 ft of altitude?

I hate speculation so I will just say this. Looking at the footage it seems as if he had complete control of roll and yaw until impact. It looks as if pitch control was limited at best. God Speed Greg!
 
The emergency response time seemed pretty slow to me. I doubt it would've helped in this case but still...
 
Not that it would have helped, but I'm a little surprised fire crews hadn't shown up by the time the video ended.
 
Those of us standing there watching we're not happy with the amount of time it took the FD to get on site.
 
EppyGA said:
Those of us standing there watching we're not happy with the amount of time it took the FD to get on site.
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It reminds me a bit of Eddie Andreini's crash at Travis in 2014. He might have lived if they got to him soon enough.
 
Sac Arrow said:
It reminds me a bit of Eddie Andreini's crash at Travis in 2014. He might have lived if they got to him soon enough.
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I have no belief that Greg would have survived this crash since he went in with such force. It just seemed like forever that the wreckage was sitting there burning.
 
EppyGA said:
I have no belief that Greg would have survived this crash since he went in with such force. It just seemed like forever that the wreckage was sitting there burning.
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I'm not suggesting otherwise, just making an anecdotal observation. You would think they would be ready to roll at the drop of a hat.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm not suggesting otherwise, just making an anecdotal observation. You would think they would be ready to roll at the drop of a hat.
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That's not really the case. I've done some ARFF response time analyses at large air carrier airports and the Part 139 response requirement is 3 minutes to the middle of any runway for the first vehicle. 4 minutes for the rest. When we do the calculation, we leave a full 60 seconds for ARFF mobilization and station exit, leaving only 2 minutes of drive time to reach the runway midpoint.

PDK isn't certificated under Part 139. There's no response time requirement or any requirement for ARFF services at all, in fact.

From a video I saw (
) ARFF was on scene and deploying firefighting agent about 75 seconds after the crash. That's a DAMN good response based on my experience.
 
EppyGA said:
Those of us standing there watching we're not happy with the amount of time it took the FD to get on site.
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It seems like forever when you're there. But, based on the video I saw they were there in 75 seconds. We don't even see that kind of response time at major air carrier airports. A Stryker (common ARFF vehicle) is spec'd 0-50mph in over 35 seconds. You're not going anywhere quickly in one.
 
In the Marines, we had a crash crew truck sitting at the middle of the runway with one guy up top in the "silver suit" at all times. That's a rapid response time.
 
"He kind of made a downward pitch to pick up air speed right at the end there, but he was really too close to the ground to get enough air speed to make the complete loop," Smith said. "He got almost to the top of the loop and his airspeed let off so bad that I think he lost control and that the plane stalled."
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Not sure which video this "flight instructor" was watching, but it was nothing like that. There's a video out there from a more rearward viewing angle showing something not obvious from other videos from the side - that he pulled and started a right turn from a steep right bank a couple seconds before impact. The change in trajectory is clearly seen. It appeared to be an effort to avoid Gary, who overflew him a second later, and stated in an interview that he pulled up to "deconflict" with Greg. From the point where Greg pulled in an effort to turn right, it looked a lot like a high speed stall. Greg's ability to obtain visual contact with Gary could have been delayed by the top wing in front his face on the downline of the Cuban. It's a real issue with biplanes. I understand the wind was ripping that day. Could have been a factor with positioning issues. Sad deal.
 
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Didn't have the pleasure of meeting him, think I saw one of his shows ... this event and news leaves one speechless. Godspeed
 
whifferdill said:
Not sure which video this "flight instructor" was watching, but it was nothing like that.
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Yeah, his description didn't really match up with what I was seeing.

From the point where Greg pulled in an effort to turn right, it looked a lot like a high speed stall.
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That's what it looks like to me. But hell I'm just making an educated guess. Hopefully the cause will be confirmed at the end of the investigation.
 
It does look like a pretty sharp downward pull from the top of the loop. Could he have GLOC'd?
 
Fearless Tower said:
It does look like a pretty sharp downward pull from the top of the loop. Could he have GLOC'd?
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No. First, actual G-LOC (loss off consciousness) is extremely rare among experienced aerobatic pilots. Usually attributable to a pre-existing medical illness/condition/medication that would make flying irresponsible. Second, he was at the top of a loop. Nobody G-LOC's here. Just not possible to put much G on the airplane at the top. Third, if he was lights out, he would have been unable to do the 1.5 roll on the downline, and then attempt evasive maneuvering as Gary approached. Didn't appear he was pulling more than 5G or so into that half Cuban. That's nothing. He was off his line and too far left. He crashed trying to avoid Gary.
 
whifferdill said:
No. First, actual G-LOC (loss off consciousness) is extremely rare among experienced aerobatic pilots. Usually attributable to a pre-existing medical illness/condition/medication that would make flying irresponsible. Second, he was at the top of a loop. Nobody G-LOC's here. Just not possible to put much G on the airplane at the top. Third, if he was lights out, he would have been unable to do the 1.5 roll on the downline, and then attempt evasive maneuvering as Gary approached. Didn't appear he was pulling more than 5G or so into that half Cuban. That's nothing. He was off his line and too far left. He crashed trying to avoid Gary.
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Didn't the downline roll look a bit off, though?
 
whifferdill said:
No. First, actual G-LOC (loss off consciousness) is extremely rare among experienced aerobatic pilots. Usually attributable to a pre-existing medical illness/condition/medication that would make flying irresponsible. Second, he was at the top of a loop. Nobody G-LOC's here. Just not possible to put much G on the airplane at the top. Third, if he was lights out, he would have been unable to do the 1.5 roll on the downline, and then attempt evasive maneuvering as Gary approached. Didn't appear he was pulling more than 5G or so into that half Cuban. That's nothing. He was off his line and too far left. He crashed trying to avoid Gary.
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Got ya. Thanks for clearing that up. My exposure to aerobatics is limited to a couple barrel rolls in a T-6.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Didn't the downline roll look a bit off, though?
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Not clear what you mean by "off", but looked to me like he did the 1.5 roll from inverted to upright as planned, and then quickly banked left as if to either look for or evade Gary's oncoming flightpath, and then decided to go right, banking steeply, then pulled, and didn't pull out. I think he was off his flight path (too far to the left) on the downline. But his actual downline and rolls looked fine. His flight path was supposed to be to the right of Gary, separated by at least the runway width. I have a feeling the wind was a factor. No way I believe he was incapacitated in any way. This was a very benign maneuver.
 
Turningfinal said:
That's not really the case. I've done some ARFF response time analyses at large air carrier airports and the Part 139 response requirement is 3 minutes to the middle of any runway for the first vehicle. 4 minutes for the rest. When we do the calculation, we leave a full 60 seconds for ARFF mobilization and station exit, leaving only 2 minutes of drive time to reach the runway midpoint.

PDK isn't certificated under Part 139. There's no response time requirement or any requirement for ARFF services at all, in fact.

From a video I saw (
) ARFF was on scene and deploying firefighting agent about 75 seconds after the crash. That's a DAMN good response based on my experience.
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An airshow is different - fire engines should be close to the flightline and able to arrive at a performer crash within 30 seconds.
 
ateamer said:
An airshow is different - fire engines should be close to the flightline and able to arrive at a performer crash within 30 seconds.
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30 seconds seems quick considering the acceleration rate of a standard ARFF vehicle.

I did read some ICAS thing about a 10 second mobilization and 60 second response time. That seems a bit more reasonable.
 
These two videos make it pretty clear that he had some control, was flying - and really backs up whifferdill.


 
RyanShort1 said:
These two videos make it pretty clear that he had some control, was flying - and really backs up whifferdill.


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Those are much better videos. Those videos look a lot more like a pilot trying to troubleshoot a flight control problem than a loss of control.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Or trying to find the other pilot.
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Could be. Like I was saying earlier, I really have no aerobatic experience, but the movements in those two videos you posted seem more like a pilot who realizes something isn't right and is frantically trying to find a flight control input that works.
 
what happened right here:

deleteme.jpg

I don't know squat about aerobatics but that just looks different than "rolling out of" or stopping a maneuver. or it could be nothing, but it just stands out to me.
 
eman1200 said:
what happened right here:

View attachment 45445

I don't know squat about aerobatics but that just looks different than "rolling out of" or stopping a maneuver. or it could be nothing, but it just stands out to me.
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Maybe he was looking for the other plane or adjusting his flight path because of the other plane.

eman did you see the boobs on the woman who was filming it? :eek:
 
mscard88 said:
Maybe he was looking for the other plane or adjusting his flight path because of the other plane.

eman did you see the boobs on the woman who was filming it? :eek:
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while I appreciate the joke, might not be the right thread for it...........
 
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