PBF VOR OTS, ILS Missed N/A?

ARFlyer

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The Pine Bluff VOR is OTS until Jan at the earliest. The two VOR approaches have been NOTAM'd NA, however no change has been made to the ILS.

The missed approach procedure for the ILS is via the PBF R-211 radial to RISON.

So does this make the approach NA since there is no valid missed procedure? You can id RISON with a GPS but you can not follow the actual listed missed.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1409/00901IL18.PDF
 
ARFlyer said:
The Pine Bluff VOR is OTS until Jan at the earliest. The two VOR approaches have been NOTAM'd NA, however no change has been made to the ILS.

The missed approach procedure for the ILS is via the PBF R-211 radial to RISON.

So does this make the approach NA since there is no valid missed procedure? You can id RISON with a GPS but you can not follow the actual listed missed.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1409/00901IL18.PDF
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Also missing is a NOTAM indicating the VOR is OTS.
 
There should be an FDC NOTAM limiting the ILS approach to aircraft with GPS due to the VOR outage, but there isn't. I'd bring that to the airport manager's attention so the omission can be fixed.
 
AC 90-108 says you can use a suitable RNAV system as a substitute means of navigation when the VOR is OOS. You can't use a suitable RNAV system for the final approach segment lateral guidance, but the VOR is not required for the final approach guidance on this procedure. I see no reason the ILS approach could not be flown using a suitable RNAV system (aka GPS) to substitute for the VOR and DME. There is nothing special about the missed approach procedure and the GPS can fly that as well. I did not quote the entire AC 90-108, but my comments reflect the gist of what is permitted.
 
I agree with everything John said, but if the VOR is OTS for several months, there should be a Navigation NOTAM saying so, and an FDC NOTAM requiring GPS-based RNAV to fly the ILS approach.
 
Normally they would publish a NOTAM with alternate missed approach instructions. Technically you would have to have GPS during the beginning of the approach to REYLO as well as the missed approach. Unless getting vectors and just intercepting the approach at a higher altitude. Like Ron said, I would bring this to the attention of the airport manager.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Normally they would publish a NOTAM with alternate missed approach instructions. Technically you would have to have GPS during the beginning of the approach to REYLO as well as the missed approach. Unless getting vectors and just intercepting the approach at a higher altitude. Like Ron said, I would bring this to the attention of the airport manager.
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Normally, they would publish a NOTAM saying the approach was NA except for users with advanced RNAV. If an alternate missed approach existed the holding pattern for that procedure would be depicted on the plate.
 
roncachamp said:
If an alternate missed approach existed the holding pattern for that procedure would be depicted on the plate.
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I've seen notams before that amended the missed approach instructions to a climb, turn, and heading to intercept the holding fix
 
Gucci Pilot said:
I've seen notams before that amended the missed approach instructions to a climb, turn, and heading to intercept the holding fix
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Yup... see my thread about "NOTAMS are Important" and mentioning my discovery of the HUB VOR @ Houston Hobby being OTS, and the resulting NOTAM making a change to the Missed Approach Procedure.
 
I flew in the PBF today VFR and was on GPS, but flying towards the VOr to line up for the ILS. Approach must have figured me out because 20 miles from PBF ATC tells me the VOR is OOS.

I don't see how you could make anything other then the GpS approach into PBF now. Pretty hard to go missed on a broken VOR radial.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Yup... see my thread about "NOTAMS are Important" and mentioning my discovery of the HUB VOR @ Houston Hobby being OTS, and the resulting NOTAM making a change to the Missed Approach Procedure.
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That's a different situation. At locations where the NAVAID used for the missed approach procedure is not required for procedure entry or for the final approach course, and where it is possible to do so, preplanned alternate missed approach procedures have been devised for use in the event that that NAVAID is unavailable. To avoid confusion the alternate missed approach instructions are not published on the chart, but the alternate missed approach holding pattern will be depicted.

Examine the plate for the ILS or LOC RWY 30L at KHOU. On the left side of the plan view is the normal missed approach hold at DREWZ. On the right side is the alternate missed approach hold at VUH. The NOTAM is simply the preplanned alternate missed approach instructions.

Now examine the plate for the ILS or LOC RWY 18 at KPBF. Note that no alternate missed approach holding pattern is depicted. No alternate pattern means no alternate procedure.
 
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Unit74 said:
I flew in the PBF today VFR and was on GPS, but flying towards the VOr to line up for the ILS. Approach must have figured me out because 20 miles from PBF ATC tells me the VOR is OOS.

I don't see how you could make anything other then the GpS approach into PBF now. Pretty hard to go missed on a broken VOR radial.
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With GPS it's actually quite easy.
 
roncachamp said:
With GPS it's actually quite easy.
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We are talking a VOR approach though... Sure it's easy on GPS. But you'd have to HAVE gps to do it. Kinda defeats the purpose of the VOR approach flying. Hybrid approach.
 
Unit74 said:
We are talking a VOR approach though... Sure it's easy on GPS. But you'd have to HAVE gps to do it. Kinda defeats the purpose of the VOR approach flying. Hybrid approach.
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We are talking an ILS approach.
 
Tomato/ to-mato...


The holding fix is on a VOR radial. I know your trying to act uber smarter than me, but you know darn well what I was conveying, so give it up.
 
Unit74 said:
Tomato/ to-mato...


The holding fix is on a VOR radial. I know your trying to act uber smarter than me, but you know darn well what I was conveying, so give it up.
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I have no idea what you were trying to convey. You wrote, "I don't see how you could make anything other then the GpS approach into PBF now. Pretty hard to go missed on a broken VOR radial." GPS can be used to fly to a holding fix on a VOR radial just as easy as flying a GPS approach.
 
roncachamp said:
I have no idea what you were trying to convey. You wrote, "I don't see how you could make anything other then the GpS approach into PBF now. Pretty hard to go missed on a broken VOR radial." GPS can be used to fly to a holding fix on a VOR radial just as easy as flying a GPS approach.
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DME is required to REYLO off PBF. If PBF is OOS, and you are not GPS equipped,
How then will you ID the point when you can decend from 2000? Sure you can track the ILS, but with no DME avail and PBF down, you cannot fly the approach.

What am I missing?:dunno:
 
Unit74 said:
DME is required to REYLO off PBF. If PBF is OOS, and you are not GPS equipped,
How then will you ID the point when you can decend from 2000? Sure you can track the ILS, but with no DME avail and PBF down, you cannot fly the approach.

What am I missing?:dunno:
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You wrote, "I don't see how you could make anything other then the GpS approach into PBF now."

Can a pilot with GPS make the ILS approach into PBF now? Is an ILS approach an approach other than a GPS approach?
 
I would have to dig into the FARs at this point. No clue. But my first thought is no. You would be on a GPS approach not the ILS. REYLO is not on the GPS approach so your trying to fly two plates at once. And you couldn't use an app like foreflight because it's not certified.

But REYLO and PAYIT are both the same distance from DA. In addition, there are two different PTs on each approach.

Thinking it put, I'd still say with the VOR down, the ILS/LOC approach is also OOS until they send out a new procedure.
 
Unit74 said:
I would have to dig into the FARs at this point. No clue. But my first thought is no. You would be on a GPS approach not the ILS. REYLO is not on the GPS approach so your trying to fly two plates at once. And you couldn't use an app like foreflight because it's not certified.
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You need to brush up a little. Read AC 90-108 for the details. It is pretty clear that a suitable RNAV system (aka IFR GPS) can be used in lieu of an ADF, VOR, or DME on a conventional approach for all except the lateral navigation on the final approach course.

Unit74 said:
But REYLO and PAYIT are both the same distance from DA. In addition, there are two different PTs on each approach.
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REYLO is on the ILS procedure and PAYIT is a non sequitur. Where did you dig this waypoint up from, it is not in any of the previous discussion and not on the ILS.

Unit74 said:
Thinking it put, I'd still say with the VOR down, the ILS/LOC approach is also OOS until they send out a new procedure.
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It is time for a refresher course.
 
Unit74 said:
I would have to dig into the FARs at this point. No clue. But my first thought is no. You would be on a GPS approach not the ILS. REYLO is not on the GPS approach so your trying to fly two plates at once. And you couldn't use an app like foreflight because it's not certified.
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The correct answers are "Yes" to both questions.

But REYLO and PAYIT are both the same distance from DA. In addition, there are two different PTs on each approach.

Thinking it put, I'd still say with the VOR down, the ILS/LOC approach is also OOS until they send out a new procedure.
Click to expand...

The ILS is usable by aircraft with advanced RNAV and a NOTAM should have been issued stating that.
 
John Collins said:
You need to brush up a little.



It is time for a refresher course.
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I am well aware of that. I have not flown IFR since 2001. Been reading Machados book in prep for an IPC though.
 
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