Passed my IFR checkride

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

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DesertNomad
I took my IFR checkride yesterday and passed. I feel like a huge weight had been lifted off me.

It was a long day, waking up at 5:30 to get ready, get breakfast near the hangar and reposition the plane to the other side of the airport. The local DPE is an older guy who doesn't say much and it's hard to tell what he is thinking.

I had planned my XC trip and the DPE was not too happy that I had used electronic aids to come up with times at the various intersections. At the end of the oral, he asked me to be very sure I am right... "'cause we're going to go find out and you'd better be within a few minutes". I had copied the graphs and tables for climb etc from the POH so had a way to show him that it matched what the POH said. On the way to the first point, we got briefly re-vectored by ATC and were one minute late at the calculated point/time. I had calculated 11 minutes to the next one and upon checking the 530W, it said 10m 49s. Close enough. :)

The biggest worry came when doing a mag check. Right as I switched to one mag, the batteries in my Bose A20 died and the noise cancelling stopped. I had the air scoop vent open and the wind made a thumping sound in my headset. I thought I had a rough mag. I went to the other mag, then both, did it again and then back to the first check once more. It was just my headset but it took me a bit to be sure. I had spare batteries within reach but we were ready to go so I just flew without noise cancelling.

I also realized at the end of the run up that the DPE's door was not fully latched. Fixed that. It would have been pretty embarrassing to have it pop open.
 
DesertNomad said:
I took my IFR checkride yesterday and passed. I feel like a huge weight had been lifted off me.

It was a long day, waking up at 5:30 to get ready, get breakfast near the hangar and reposition the plane to the other side of the airport. The local DPE is an older guy who doesn't say much and it's hard to tell what he is thinking.

I had planned my XC trip and the DPE was not too happy that I had used electronic aids to come up with times at the various intersections. At the end of the oral, he asked me to be very sure I am right... "'cause we're going to go find out and you'd better be within a few minutes". I had copied the graphs and tables for climb etc from the POH so had a way to show him that it matched what the POH said. On the way to the first point, we got briefly re-vectored by ATC and were one minute late at the calculated point/time. I had calculated 11 minutes to the next one and upon checking the 530W, it said 10m 49s. Close enough. :)
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Hard core DPE! Congrats!
 
Nice write up and job well done! Hearty congrats! I decided to wait until I have my own plane to finish my IR. Figure it would be wise to get the time in what I want to be flying on a regular basis to be solid on it.
 
DesertNomad said:
I also realized at the end of the run up that the DPE's door was not fully latched. Fixed that. It would have been pretty embarrassing to have it pop open.
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That might have been his planned distraction :devil::devil:

Good job! I know you've been working long and hard on it! Welcome once again to the League of Temporary Airmen!
 
AggieMike88 said:
That might have been his planned distraction :devil::devil:

Good job! I know you've been working long and hard on it! Welcome once again to the League of Temporary Airmen!
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For an IR checkride? I doubt it. Maybe for a PP.

Congrats. Now you need a FIKI aircraft to get over the Sierra in winter. :D
 
DesertNomad said:
I also realized at the end of the run up that the DPE's door was not fully latched. Fixed that. It would have been pretty embarrassing to have it pop open.
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First and foremost CONGRATULATIONS.. the secret handshake instructions are forth coming..

Secondly, the open door thing.. not throwing stones here, but it wouldn't be the first time I have heard of a DPE doing something small to see if you catch it...

Enjoy your new rating
 
Congrats!

Now comes the fun part, figuring out how to chase weather in our area to keep current...I've just been doing the safety pilot/foggle dance lately... ;)

Cheers,
Brian
 
Congrats!

DesertNomad said:
...I had planned my XC trip and the DPE was not too happy that I had used electronic aids to come up with times at the various intersections...
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I get tired of this "anti-electronic aids" bs...when people stopped using a sextant for navigation I bet there were geezers around complaining how everyone was gonna get rusty taking celestial measurements instead of just dialing in a bearing on the adf, vor, etc
 
tawood said:
Congrats!



I get tired of this "anti-electronic aids" bs...when people stopped using a sextant for navigation I bet there were geezers around complaining how everyone was gonna get rusty taking celestial measurements instead of just dialing in a bearing on the adf, vor, etc
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And there are STILL instances where celestial navigation is the correct solution.

ADF and VOR don't work in the middle of the ocean, or in certain remote areas. GPS usually does, but it's rather vulnerable to interference. Next time you fly on a 747, ask to see the sextant port. It's there, though most are also equipped with INS.

You MUST understand how the electronic magic works. If your iPad is a crutch and you have to divert without it, you're screwed. That's the source of this "anti-electronic aids bs." Everyone is fine with it as long as it is not a necessity. As soon as it becomes one, it's a problem.

So, continue to be "tired" of it. It's going to be an issue as long as there are people who think depending on a magic box exclusively is a good idea.
 
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I'm all for the technology as long as you can navigate without it. I let my students use their iPads/iPhones/Android, etc once they demonstrate proficiency using a plotter, E6B and their eyes.
 
MAKG1 said:
And there are STILL instances where celestial navigation is the correct solution.

ADF and VOR don't work in the middle of the ocean, or in certain remote areas. GPS usually does, but it's rather vulnerable to interference. Next time you fly on a 747, ask to see the sextant port. It's there. Now.

You MUST understand how the electronic magic works. If your iPad is a crutch and you have to divert without it, you're screwed. That's the source of this "anti-electronic aids bs." Everyone is fine with it as long as it is not a necessity. As soon as it becomes one, it's a problem.

So, continue to be "tired" of it. It's going to be an issue as long as there are people who think depending on a magic box exclusively is a good idea.
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I have a degree in accounting w/a minor in math, and no problem with calculating figures...but I use a calculator ALWAYS, because it's more time consuming not to...can I do the calculations by hand? Sure, but why?

Can I calculate my courses by hand? Yep. But is it more likely that I error? Yep.

Over my 24 years of flying and 6 planes I've owned, EVERY required instrument has failed at least sometime...my iPad, on the other hand, never has...I'm not saying it would never fail though, and my experience is only one sample, but even if it does, I could use the electronics of my iPhone as back up. If both fail, I could do it with an e6b but by that point I wouldn't because I would think the universe is telling me to quit for the day. I could even do it roughly in my head if I was flying, but if ANY other method is available I would only check the figures in my head.
 
MAKG1 said:
Next time you fly on a 747, ask to see the sextant port. It's there, though most are also equipped with INS.
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Yup, my dad spent his career flying 747s... the steam gauge -100s and -200s.
 
tawood said:
I have a degree in accounting w/a minor in math, and no problem with calculating figures...but I use a calculator ALWAYS, because it's more time consuming not to...can I do the calculations by hand? Sure, but why?

Can I calculate my courses by hand? Yep. But is it more likely that I error? Yep.

Over my 24 years of flying and 6 planes I've owned, EVERY required instrument has failed at least sometime...my iPad, on the other hand, never has...I'm not saying it would never fail though, and my experience is only one sample, but even if it does, I could use the electronics of my iPhone as back up. If both fail, I could do it with an e6b but by that point I wouldn't because I would think the universe is telling me to quit for the day. I could even do it roughly in my head if I was flying, but if ANY other method is available I would only check the figures in my head.
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EVERY battery powered device can run out. There is an old pilot's joke that a flashlight is a container for dead batteries. That applies to your iPhone, too.

iPads are susceptible to heat shutdown without warning. They are also vulnerable to software bugs including OS and app faults that would screw up your iPhone too. If you plug all your stuff into ship's power, there are some real fun failure modes there (I lost my previous tablet that way).

I've had at least half a dozen failures, all of them minor because I was prepared for them. The iPad has had fewer failures than the previous tablet, but it's not immune. It conked out on me right before an IFR release once, due to a heat failure. I had an alternative (paper), so I proceeded without incident.

For the OP's issue, I'm sure you must have noticed that Foreflight's climb calculations are, ahem, ambitious, particularly if long climbs or high density altitude are involved. It's just not true that you climb at a constant vertical speed and airspeed for a 1.5 mile climb. Foreflight says I can get to LA in two hours in a 182 or 177RG. We'll see....I predict it's at least 2:15, more likely 2:30. That requires climbing to 8000 or higher, with sea level airports on both sides.
 
MAKG1 said:
For the OP's issue, I'm sure you must have noticed that Foreflight's climb calculations are, ahem, ambitious, particularly if long climbs or high density altitude are involved. It's just not true that you climb at a constant vertical speed and airspeed for a 1.5 mile climb. Foreflight says I can get to LA in two hours in a 182 or 177RG. We'll see....I predict it's at least 2:15, more likely 2:30. That requires climbing to 8000 or higher, with sea level airports on both sides.
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I have found FF to be spot on for the climb/cruise. I do adjust the TAS for cruise (taking temperature and pressure into account) and doing the same for the climb (averaging the TAS at the start and end of the climb). FF has always been within 2 minutes for me to the first checkpoint (usually 10-20 out and 5-8K feet above the airport).

You can't just use one TAS for the whole climb. Yesterday the TAS at the bottom of the climb was 90 and it was 103 at the top, then 144 in cruise.
 
Congrats!!
I'm glad my DPE didn't tell me that. I just might have fired him.
The FAA has expressly written about these EFB products we have now.
 
Dalyup said:
Congrats!!
I'm glad my DPE didn't tell me that. I just might have fired him.
The FAA has expressly written about these EFB products we have now.
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He had no problem with me using it for charts, plates etc (and he made sure I had a backup - a second iPad). He was concerned that the enroute time would not account for the slower climb and changing TAS. He's very old-school and I expected it somewhat. I was cringing inside when I explained how I derived the numbers.... knowing what his reaction might be. I was thrilled when my times were spot-on.
 
It amazes me times can ever be close. I've not tried it recently, and I'm not doubting you guys, but I'd very surprised if I was within 5 minutes. Maybe 10.

* Winds? This is huge. Everyone always jokes about bad winds aloft forecasts. So are they accurate or not. If not, your times aren't going to be either.
* "over a checkpoint. What's over mean? Depends on the checkpoint, doesn't it?
* Climb, descent - Who knows? You can plan down to the second and then approach turns you late, or asks you to stay below 5000 for a while, or...

Why does it matter, anyway? Arriving with in 3 minutes of when you said seems like a pointless waste of time. Being +- 15 minutes for the entire trip seems like it would be fine.
 
citizen5000 said:
Was the DPE Dave Ruth?
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Yes.

He's quite a character. Super nice guy, but very old-school. It's great that he is still able fly so much. He's pretty quiet and it can be hard to get him talking, but ask him about riding motorcycles up by Virginia City some time. I'm sure he was pretty wild in his younger days. :)
 
Yes. Dave got his 50 year pin three years ago. He says he's done thousands of checkrides. He says he wants new pilots to demontrate some of the basics because he thinks it will keep them out of trouble if their panel and backup devices die in flight. It is beyond the PTS so though it raises anxiety in some he probably would not flunk someone if they miss doing things by hand or flying most of the checkride by pilotage.

Betcha Dave was major impressed with you being able to scramble like you did hand estimated ETEs.
 
Mistake Not... said:
It amazes me times can ever be close. I've not tried it recently, and I'm not doubting you guys, but I'd very surprised if I was within 5 minutes. Maybe 10.

* Winds? This is huge. Everyone always jokes about bad winds aloft forecasts. So are they accurate or not. If not, your times aren't going to be either.
* "over a checkpoint. What's over mean? Depends on the checkpoint, doesn't it?
* Climb, descent - Who knows? You can plan down to the second and then approach turns you late, or asks you to stay below 5000 for a while, or...

Why does it matter, anyway? Arriving with in 3 minutes of when you said seems like a pointless waste of time. Being +- 15 minutes for the entire trip seems like it would be fine.
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Being 15 minutes late on a day VFR flight and then having to get a popup approach would really suck if you had minimum legal fuel.

You pick checkpoints you can isolate. It's part of the exercise. For IFR, they are all quite small; the biggest is the zone of confusion for a VOR.

DesertNomad did the first order correction to Foreflight. It helps, quite a bit. Foreflight can't do that on its own. Kinda stupid that it can't, 'cause calculating the TAS/CAS correction for continuous altitude and temperature is not very difficult. But that's why you have to know how to do it manually. Just plugging into Foreflight like it says you should will give you a wrong answer. You have to correct it. Similarly, winds aloft are available on a 0.5 deg grid globally and smaller grids locally. They can be applied with MUCH lower discreteness than just the winds aloft published forecast. I did that with my own flight planner 'cause I didn't know any better (it's my numerical experience -- use the native discreteness whenever possible), and the users have been reporting it beats out PFPS for winds and timing, much to my surprise. Not so great for climb performance, but that's another story.
 
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citizen5000 said:
Betcha Dave was major impressed with you being able to scramble like you did hand estimated ETEs.
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I was relieved when it all came out so close. I was certain it would, but on the checkride the anxiety level is cranked up several notches.

I really wish FF had better climb/cruise calculations. I should be able to put in an IAS for the climb, since I am going to hold some IAS all the way up. FF knows the departure elevation, temperature, pressure, wind etc and also knows it at the top of the climb. It should be able to derive TAS from this and apply it to the time. I find that for most flights, averaging the TAS at the start and end of the climb gives pretty usable results.
 
MAKG1 said:
Being 15 minutes late on a day VFR flight and then having to get a popup approach would really suck if you had minimum legal fuel.
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I think that's where, for me, this seems academic. I always top off, and I never carry so much I leave fuel behind. No leg is long than 2 hours, max, 'cause I simply don't like flying longer than that.

I guess it's nice to know you can cut things closer than that, but since I have 3+ hours reserve in the tanks, worrying about 15 minutes is just... meh. Now, I can see if you're having to leave fuel on the ground so you can take extra baggage, and flying as far as you can, then.. yeah.
 
Mistake Not... said:
I think that's where, for me, this seems academic. I always top off, and I never carry so much I leave fuel behind. No leg is long than 2 hours, max, 'cause I simply don't like flying longer than that.

I guess it's nice to know you can cut things closer than that, but since I have 3+ hours reserve in the tanks, worrying about 15 minutes is just... meh. Now, I can see if you're having to leave fuel on the ground so you can take extra baggage, and flying as far as you can, then.. yeah.
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I typically use a 60 minute reserve night or day, but I find myself using reduced fuel for weight quite often.
 
Congratulations.
 
Congrats! It is a huge weight lifted when you finally pass.

I had to take the checkride twice, with a DPE who spent time as a crash investigator, who was very interested in playing law and order during 6 hour oral.

I'm glad you got through, and caught yourself before losing out. Well done. You've earned it. :)
 
saladman said:
Congrats! It is a huge weight lifted when you finally pass.
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Once you pass and the novelty of it fades, do not forget that it, just like the PPL, is just a license to learn. (insert an honest smiley without snark or any ulterior motive)

I personally like to look at fun and challenging charts from time to time and quiz other IR pilots, just to keep my IR skills up because they really do atrophy.
I also joined our local IMC club with other IR friends and it too helps me stay a little better proficient.
While I do remain current at all times by flying with a SP in VMC if I have to, I like to also stay proficient in all the rules, legalities, procedures and more.

IOW: if you enjoyed your IR training like I did, the good news is that you don't have to stop! :)
 
BigBadLou said:
Once you pass and the novelty of it fades, do not forget that it, just like the PPL, is just a license to learn. (insert an honest smiley without snark or any ulterior motive)
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No kidding...

The first thing I did after getting my IR was CAP qualification. I was put through the wringer, again. Very humbling. And then I got evaluated by my CFII (he's also a CAP check pilot). He knew all my weaknesses, and tested them. Put me through the nastiest nonprecision high workload approach he could find partial panel, for instance. The approach no longer exists, but it had a feeder into a hold (teardrop) with descent and final approach fix, all on the same navaid (it was KSCK VOR 29R, which used ECA VOR for everything).

And I do find myself practicing a lot more than I thought I would. Fortunately, I've never had a problem finding safety pilots.
 
That reminds me of a great webpage that a friend emailed me some time ago. (sorry, don't have the link right now) It lists some of the most convoluted or hard approaches in the US.
So with my buddy from NJ, we jump in the sim (let's not dwell on this), set up the LCDs to show only the panel (no peeking outside) and go fly one of those pesky approaches.
DME arc into BC LOC with DME off the VOR and not LOC? Hah! Glad it was a sim, I would have blown the checkride right there.
DME arc as the whole approach, down to mins? Heck yeah! Fun fun fun. Gotta be really precise. None of that +/- 2nm stuff. :)

I too have no problem finding safety pilots, we have a pretty good group here full of IR pilots and we go fly together often.
 
BigBadLou said:
That reminds me of a great webpage that a friend emailed me some time ago. (sorry, don't have the link right now) It lists some of the most convoluted or hard approaches in the US.
So with my buddy from NJ, we jump in the sim (let's not dwell on this), set up the LCDs to show only the panel (no peeking outside) and go fly one of those pesky approaches.
DME arc into BC LOC with DME off the VOR and not LOC? Hah! Glad it was a sim, I would have blown the checkride right there.
DME arc as the whole approach, down to mins? Heck yeah! Fun fun fun. Gotta be really precise. None of that +/- 2nm stuff. :)

I too have no problem finding safety pilots, we have a pretty good group here full of IR pilots and we go fly together often.
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If you find that website back post the link. I'd like to look at it.

The DME arc to LOC BC approach you describe almost sounds like this one. There is an examiner at this airport too so I wouldn't be surprised if he uses it to put you to the test if you went to him for an instrument checkride...

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1707/00667LDBC18.PDF
 
mondtster said:
If you find that website back post the link. I'd like to look at it.

The DME arc to LOC BC approach you describe almost sounds like this one. There is an examiner at this airport too so I wouldn't be surprised if he uses it to put you to the test if you went to him for an instrument checkride...

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1707/00667LDBC18.PDF
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Sorry, still can't find the link. I think it is on my old laptop.
But your approach is pretty much identical to what we flew, LOC BC with DME on a separate freq (VOR). It was in Alaska, Aleutian Islands .... found it! Cold Bay BC rwy 33. :)
http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1707/01241ldbc33.pdf


mtuomi said:
I think this one would be fun too

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1707/05222VDTZ15.PDF
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Nice, I just flew that one 2 nights ago!
The approach itself is pretty neat because it requires increasing precision as you near the rwy. You better keep 14.7 on the DME box! :)
And the missed is very cool too. I went into the hold, did two laps and my next clearance was for the LDA 33 (since the winds favored that rwy anyway).


Maybe we should start a new thread here in this instrument forum and list fun/challenging approaches?
 
Congratulations! Be careful. Now is when you are the most dangerous.

tex
 
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