PAPER Chart Subscriptions

citizen5000 said:
Flying with out of date paper is worse than any sunlight effect on a tablet which will always be current. Just getting guys to follow a checklist is hard enough, no way they are flying with current paper if they are not using an EFB.
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Assumes facts not in evidence. Just because YOU don't keep it up to date doesn't mean everyone doesn't. That's what subscriptions are for. Read the thread title.
 
MAKG1 said:
I have a Pickett Microline 140 in my desk drawer.

And you really shouldn't be using your Wang for that sort of thing. Makes you go blind. :D
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It's the nixie tubes...
 
Bill Watson said:
A note from the other end of the spectrum: I just realized I stopped using Sectionals and Low Enroutes in favor of ForeFlight's 'Aeronautical' displays. I've been paperless and pencil-less for over 5 years now. I now find the electronic display of these paper charts inferior to FF's iPad display optimized charts.

I still use Sectionals to figure out what airport to use to visit a particular place. I overlay the low enroute for IFR navigation in the NE corridor where they still assign Victor airways, but otherwise the FF Aeronauticals are easiest for cross country travel.
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To make my view clear I began flying in the era where L/F four-course range stations were still around, although not for much longer. My PPL X-countries were with paper and no nav radios. A great foundation.

OTOH, the light airplane VOR/LOC receivers of that era were lousy.

Today, the glass avionics in many light airplanes are better than what I used much of my airline career. Electronic charts are superior to paper in all respects. The FF sectionals on an iPad are awesome (as they are on my PC in Skyvector.com.) The issue is failure of the e-charts. In Part 25 airplanes with certified e-displays there is redundancy and ship's power. The light airplane pilot has to improvise his backups, if any.

Down the road, we will see database e-charts, starting with the airlines and high-end GA. With a database chart only the routing pertinent to your operation will be displayed. Only the notes and minimums pertinent to your operation will be displayed. Ultimate declutter and clarity.
 
TRocket said:
That's not a relevant argument in this case. I see where you are trying to go here but you are missing the point.
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Enlighten then. What is the point if not to ignore digital technology over analog paper products?

The near future will see the EFB in a HUD. Can you get paper into one of those?
 
citizen5000 said:
Enlighten then. What is the point if not to ignore digital technology over analog paper products?

The near future will see the EFB in a HUD. Can you get paper into one of those?
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I'm a technologist by profession. I carry and use an iPad (with WingX so apparently I'm an unwashed Phillistine, but still). I carry paper charts for backup because I'm a technologist. Things fail. They do regardless of all the effort we put into making them not. And these external tools (iPad, Android, etc) are built on top of consumer grade systems with all sorts of bugs in them. I'm not betting my ticket, much less my tush and all it's accessories, on consumer grade technology.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't qualify as a Luddite.

John
 
jsstevens said:
I carry paper charts for backup because I'm a technologist.
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I was a Chief Information Officer at a large Silicon Valley company. My tech credentials are pretty solid too. Sadly there is way too much obsolescence in aviation and many who seem to need/want to cling to it. There really is no good justification for paper versus EFB. In fact, we are a couple of decades away from machines replacing humans in every job on the planet.
 
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Being a 20 hr student, I have more questions than anything to offer. But I am trying to learn.
I've done one short and one long dual XC...so I'm pretty green here.

So what happens if I'm flying, and realize I need to land very soon. (weather, fuel, illness, etc.)
My EFB happens to go awry, and I have no backups or information at all. (not likely, but what if)
Do I just contact anyone I can get on the radio and ask for assistance with safe altitude and heading to nearest airport?

Sorry if it's a dumb question, but I'm about to solo XC and just trying to think about emergency situations.
 
Realistically your not a real pilot unless you do every nav log by hand
 
citizen5000 said:
I was a Chief Information Officer at a large Silicon Valley company. My tech credentials are pretty solid too. Sadly there is way too much obsolescence in aviation and many who seem to need/want to cling to it. There really is no good justification for paper versus EFB. In fact, we are a couple of decades away from machines replacing humans in every job on the planet.
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You and I have significant difference of opinion on both these topics. So be it. But in all seriousness, would you want your life support system running in an iPad?
 
Skyrys62 said:
Being a 20 hr student, I have more questions than anything to offer. But I am trying to learn.
I've done one short and one long dual XC...so I'm pretty green here.

So what happens if I'm flying, and realize I need to land very soon. (weather, fuel, illness, etc.)
My EFB happens to go awry, and I have no backups or information at all. (not likely, but what if)
Do I just contact anyone I can get on the radio and ask for assistance with safe altitude and heading to nearest airport?

Sorry if it's a dumb question, but I'm about to solo XC and just trying to think about emergency situations.
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You mean no engine, no GPS, no EFB, desperately air sick and unable to look at a chart? You look around, find an airport or suitable landing place and land the thing.

Seriously, you may sweat a bit but can do it. Done it more than a few times. Nothing concentrates the mind like a forced landing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
citizen5000 said:
I was a Chief Information Officer at a large Silicon Valley company. My tech credentials are pretty solid too. Sadly there is way too much obsolescence in aviation and many who seem to need/want to cling to it. There really is no good justification for paper versus EFB. In fact, we are a couple of decades away from machines replacing humans in every job on the planet.
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This is truly an idiotic argument. Batteries die, devices break, iPads overheat. I've had it happen 3 times on cross-countries. Paper charts are perfectly fine, they are not obsolete. They have fantastic battery life and react pretty well to being dropped. To say that there's "no good justification for paper versus EFB" is just complete nonsense.
 
citizen5000 said:
I was a Chief Information Officer at a large Silicon Valley company. My tech credentials are pretty solid too. Sadly there is way too much obsolescence in aviation and many who seem to need/want to cling to it. There really is no good justification for paper versus EFB. In fact, we are a couple of decades away from machines replacing humans in every job on the planet.
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It's not paper versus EFB. Several of us have mentioned that we use both.

What I don't get is why some people don't seem to understand the concept of "different strokes for different folks."
 
mryan75 said:
This is truly an idiotic argument. Batteries die, devices break, iPads overheat. I've had it happen 3 times on cross-countries. Paper charts are perfectly fine, they are not obsolete. They have fantastic battery life and react pretty well to being dropped. To say that there's "no good justification for paper versus EFB" is just complete nonsense.
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I have an iPad, and an iPhone with every chart and plate there is. I carry a charger, and a portable battery with me. That's redundancy. Unless you have multiple charts in different locations, saying that paper is more reliable than iPad/iPhone is a ridiculous arguement.
Saying "batteries die, devices break, iPads overheat", is like saying "coffee spills on paper, paper rips, paper can go under seat where you can't reach."
Paper is inferior to an EFB in every way.
The only exception is when someone uses the EFB like an idiot. Setting it on the dash, not bringing a charge source, not knowing how to use it.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I have an iPad, and an iPhone with every chart and plate there is. I carry a charger, and a portable battery with me. That's redundancy. Unless you have multiple charts in different locations, saying that paper is more reliable than iPad/iPhone is a ridiculous arguement.
Saying "batteries die, devices break, iPads overheat", is like saying "coffee spills on paper, paper rips, paper can go under seat where you can't reach."
Paper is inferior to an EFB in every way.
The only exception is when someone uses the EFB like an idiot. Setting it on the dash, not bringing a charge source, not knowing how to use it.
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My paper lives in the plane; updates arrive automatically in my mailbox and I take them to the plane. I'm not in the habit of carrying my tablet with me, and if I did, it wouldn't always be charged or current. Out of date paper works if it's all I have; some EFBs won't display out of date charts, so what are the pilot's options then?

I've never lost a chart in flight. But I have had a complete electrical failure.
 
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Hank S said:
I've never lost a chart in flight. But I have had a complete electrical failure.
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Did you have time to look at your paper charts when the plane had "complete electrical faillure?' Tablets are not connected to the planes electrical system.
 
citizen5000 said:
Did you have time to look at your paper charts when the plane had "complete electrical faillure?' Tablets are not connected to the planes electrical system.
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Fortunately I was close enough to home that I knew how to get there--follow the Ohio River, it's where the only flattish land is in case something else goes wrong. That's why I didn't turn direct, I wanted the options available, just I case.

Didn't need any frequencies, none of my radios worked any more. Had I been halfway from WV to NC or GA, you bet your cookies I'd have had lots of time to study my paper charts and figure out where I wanted to go.
 
Hank S said:
Fortunately I was close enough to home that I knew how to get there--follow the Ohio River, it's where the only flattish land is in case something else goes wrong. That's why I didn't turn direct, I wanted the options available, just I case.

Didn't need any frequencies, none of my radios worked any more. Had I been halfway from WV to NC or GA, you bet your cookies I'd have had lots of time to study my paper charts and figure out where I wanted to go.
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Well, am happy you made it back down safely. I use www.skyvector.com for both plate/IFR enroute and sectional study. I use the site to make mock/final flight plans and check weather which is much easier overlayed on top of a VFR sectional/low/high enroute IFR on a PC screen. Once the flight plans are figured out I transfer them from PC to the Garmin Pilot iPad and file them. Once in the plane I synch the plan via FlightStream. In flight changes made to the flight plan automatically sync from iPad to the G1000 also. It's a fast pretty automated way to get it done.
 
citizen5000 said:
I was a Chief Information Officer at a large Silicon Valley company. My tech credentials are pretty solid too. Sadly there is way too much obsolescence in aviation and many who seem to need/want to cling to it. There really is no good justification for paper versus EFB. In fact, we are a couple of decades away from machines replacing humans in every job on the planet.
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I'll also add my only reason for citing my tech credentials was you implied or even as much as said the only reason for wanting paper was because someone was a Luddite. I'm not a Luddite and still choose to have paper. I don't "prefer paper" except as a backup. But you cut the rest of that out of the quote.

John
 
For VFR navigation while en route, I prefer paper and use the EFB as a backup. (Does this make me a bad person?)

For things like taxiway diagrams and for preflight planning, I prefer electronic displays.
 
Palmpilot said:
For VFR navigation while en route, I prefer paper and use the EFB as a backup. (Does this make me a bad person?)

For things like taxiway diagrams and for preflight planning, I prefer electronic displays.
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Cool! I was starting to feel like the only one . . . :thumbsup:
 
jsstevens said:
I'm a technologist by profession. I carry and use an iPad (with WingX so apparently I'm an unwashed Phillistine, but still). I carry paper charts for backup because I'm a technologist. Things fail. They do regardless of all the effort we put into making them not. And these external tools (iPad, Android, etc) are built on top of consumer grade systems with all sorts of bugs in them. I'm not betting my ticket, much less my tush and all it's accessories, on consumer grade technology.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't qualify as a Luddite.

John
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citizen5000 said:
I was a Chief Information Officer at a large Silicon Valley company. My tech credentials are pretty solid too. Sadly there is way too much obsolescence in aviation and many who seem to need/want to cling to it. There really is no good justification for paper versus EFB. In fact, we are a couple of decades away from machines replacing humans in every job on the planet.
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I retired from a Silicon Valley startup (you may have heard of it, Intel) a couple years ago after 20 years 3 months there. I've been dealing with computers since I was in high school (more decades ago that I want to admit). I've had the display hybrid and batteries fail in my HP-41CV (and, yes, I still use that thing). I've yet to have a paper chart fail. They make great backups. Before Intel I worked for Tandem Computers for about 11 1/2 years. Tandem? The folks who had fault tolerance down to a science. Nothing in an airplane is fault tolerant (well, we do have dual mags). Single points of failure worry me. So, while the electronics on board are great, there is still that single point of failure that can bring them all crashing down. Remember why we have instruments on independent sources of power (electric, vacuum)? Paper makes a great backup. So, citizen5000, this old dinosaur will continue to carry them. I may not depend on them all the time, but having an independent backup is great. I'm glad you're happy not using paper, but I will continue to have paper as a backup.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I have an iPad, and an iPhone with every chart and plate there is. I carry a charger, and a portable battery with me. That's redundancy. Unless you have multiple charts in different locations, saying that paper is more reliable than iPad/iPhone is a ridiculous arguement.
Saying "batteries die, devices break, iPads overheat", is like saying "coffee spills on paper, paper rips, paper can go under seat where you can't reach."
Paper is inferior to an EFB in every way.
The only exception is when someone uses the EFB like an idiot. Setting it on the dash, not bringing a charge source, not knowing how to use it.
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Again, complete nonsense. But I've learned not to argue with people whose minds aren't receptive to a different position than their own.
 
I just don't get the attitude that seems to say "MY way is the ONLY RIGHT WAY, and any other way has NO ADVANTAGES, ONLY DISADVANTAGES." :rolleyes1:

I say, use whatever works best for YOU.
 
My grandson likes the paper sectional. It's real and he can hold it and trace his fingers on it. Mark on it, etc. He's 11, and I'm sort of introducing him to aviation a bit at a time. Soon he'll go fly with me, and hopefully love it.

Also, the older sectionals can be used to throw a dart at and pick a place to go visit for the hell of it if you just want to go fly.

oh, damn....Leavenworth.
 
I've tried and tried after I update sectionals and charts for Avare, but I just can't wrap any gifts in the old ones . . . Paper is apparently better for some things . . . .
 
I've got no problem with what anyone wants to use for charts. Paper, EFB, Smoke signals. I don't care.

Paper has one advantage, in that it is simple, and cannot fail on you. (All the excuses of losing it, it being out of date, falling under the seat...just silly) However, EFB's when used properly, and with redundancies, have abilities that no paper chart will ever have...period. Now, it that's not for you, that's fine. But making arguments that paper charts are better than digital ones simply because they cannot fail on you is just plain silly. Just admit you use them because you like the simplicity and that having to deal with the additional steps required to safely use an EFB instead of paper isn't for you. No problem. Neither option makes you a better pilot. Being a good pilot is in the hands, the feet, and the head, not the choice of paper vs digital.
 
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