PAPER Chart Subscriptions

No ink. The paper is in a plastic bag every day now. The other question is what would I do? Id have to read the paper on my phone every morning. I much prefer paper.

The coolest thing is when someone walks by or drives by and I can see them see her get the paper. Always puts a big smile on their face.

Its the first thing we do every morning. She takes the paper into the kitchen and I take it from her mouth. She sits and I kiss her on the nose! Then I feed her. Nice start for the day.
 
I've had a subscription from Sporty's for the paper charts I need for years. Jeppesen for approach plates. I'm going to let the Jepp charts go when the subscription runs out later this year. I don't fly instruments enough to justify the cost and I can print the governments ones I need for free from the AOPA site. I'll still get the Seattle Sectional, Seattle TAC and the two low altitude enroute charts I need in the PNW from Sporty's. And, I have GP on my tablet. But I want paper. Too many advantages, and I don't have to worry about batteries quitting or electronics failing at the wrong time. Backups. Must have backups. I hate single points of failure.
 
Ghery said:
I've had a subscription from Sporty's for the paper charts I need for years. Jeppesen for approach plates. I'm going to let the Jepp charts go when the subscription runs out later this year. I don't fly instruments enough to justify the cost and I can print the governments ones I need for free from the AOPA site. I'll still get the Seattle Sectional, Seattle TAC and the two low altitude enroute charts I need in the PNW from Sporty's. And, I have GP on my tablet. But I want paper. Too many advantages, and I don't have to worry about batteries quitting or electronics failing at the wrong time. Backups. Must have backups. I hate single points of failure.
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It's interesting to see that a fellow electronics engineer thinks the way I do about potential reliability issues in electronics!
 
Not an electronics engineer, but an engineer none the less and I carry paper also. I have been using computers since before the advent of the PC and I am a lot more comfortable if I have a paper sectional with me. I also print any IFR charts I need from AOPA's site. You can get them from the government site also, but it seems simpler to me to get them from AOPA. But, it is good to see one doesn't have to be a dinosaur like me to like paper, and that people in the know like Palmpilot and Ghery agree.
 
somorris said:
Not an electronics engineer, but an engineer none the less and I carry paper also. I have been using computers since before the advent of the PC and I am a lot more comfortable if I have a paper sectional with me. I also print any IFR charts I need from AOPA's site. You can get them from the government site also, but it seems simpler to me to get them from AOPA. But, it is good to see one doesn't have to be a dinosaur like me to like paper, and that people in the know like Palmpilot and Ghery agree.
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I can't speak for Ghery, but I have to confess that I actually am a card-carrying dinosaur. :)

And in the interest of scientific integrity, I have to admit that a statistical sample of two does not tell us anything about whether the majority of EEs agree with us!
 
Palmpilot said:
I can't speak for Ghery, but I have to confess that I actually am a card-carrying dinosaur. :)

And in the interest of scientific integrity, I have to admit that a statistical sample of two does not tell us anything about whether the majority of EEs agree with us!
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I'm not yet breaking down into oil, have used PCs since they had b&w tvs as monitors and cassette tapes for storage. Have two tablets, Apple & Samsung--won't trust my life to both working together, much less just one of them. And I'm not even an Electrical guy. I did learn in Engineering school, though, that you can't spell "geek" without EE. For some reason, that was quite popular in the ME buildings. :D

Joe Pilot sends me paper sectionals and bound plates on subscription, and I call for more occasionally for a trip. Taking two sectionals and two sets of plates isn't a hardship, and certainly doesn't threaten my useful load or CG (but then again, I'm usually worried about cube rather than weight, but still not a problem).

Plates go sideways on the floor at the base of the panel, with postits marking destinations / alternates. Sectionals live between the seats before use, and behind / under them after use. Simple, easy, and the batteries don't run out, they don't overheat, no wires to tangle, the USB adapter plug doesn't fall out or stop working . . . . And after a total el3ctrical failure, they will still take you home. Got that tshirt.
 
Palmpilot said:
It's interesting to see that a fellow electronics engineer thinks the way I do about potential reliability issues in electronics!
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My HP-41CV (and, yes, I do still use it) has been known to have its display hybrid go south. And, once every few years I have to replace the batteries. I don't have that problem with paper.

Palmpilot said:
I can't speak for Ghery, but I have to confess that I actually am a card-carrying dinosaur. :)

And in the interest of scientific integrity, I have to admit that a statistical sample of two does not tell us anything about whether the majority of EEs agree with us!
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I keep seeing in this thread where people have been using PCs since (you name it). Bah! I started programming in 1969 when I was a senior in high school. FORTRAN on an IBM 360/67 mainframe. PCs are so new. :)

Yeah, I'm old.

And, a sample size of 2 isn't statistically valid for much of anything. :)
 
Ghery said:
I keep seeing in this thread where people have been using PCs since (you name it). Bah! I started programming in 1969 when I was a senior in high school. FORTRAN on an IBM 360/67 mainframe. PCs are so new. :)
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I too started with FORTRAN around that time, but for me it was on a 7094. Then I took an assembly language course.
 
Nice to see peers. As a student in college I wrote assembly on a CDC machine. After graduating I started on an IBM 360/85 coding in BAL in 1972. I switched to Univac (MASM) in 1974 (octal machine). I got a job with Intel in the 70s after working as a Univac system engineer for a couple of years (JPL). At that time the 186/286 was the hot new processor and as a mainframe guy I had no interest in coding for the Intel chips. I ended up consulting for years. Then ended my career as an exec in a large worldwide tech manufacturing company.

Have been on glass panels in my own planes since the start (even trained in a glass panel plane). For me software systems are natural and easy. The old analog world seems oddly sparse (not a criticism).
 
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My HP41CX is in my desk drawer at work, still use it and a simulator on my phone. It was an upgrade from a straight HP41 with two memory packs. I have no use for an "=" button.

www.joepilot.com has the best prices on paper chart subscriptions.
 
Man, you guys are old. I started programming in High School on a Wang. Followed by a Westinghouse 2550 mini connected to a Model 33 teletype. Saved my BASIC programs on paper tape. In 1975. So you beat me by about 5 years.

I absolutely love what good applications of tech can do, but I still think about how it will fail (because it will) and Murphy's Law says at the worst time. So assess and mitigate risk appropriately. Also, there are a lot of really BAD applications of tech, which make things harder and worse not better and easier. So I'm skeptical of tech for tech's sake.

John
 
Hank S said:
I have no use for an "=" button.
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The average person needs a calculator that works like 3rd grade math. But, for these who have more serious inclinations RPN is vastly superior. I got hooked on HP when the first one came out. The HP35 for $395 in the 1970s and almost brain dead. I have a 32S III sitting by my keyboard for use as my calculator. Many of the functions I would never use but trig is important for me as well as some of the conversion functions.

"Programmable calculator" draws blank stares during cocktail party small talk.
 
jsstevens said:
Man, you guys are old. I started programming in High School on a Wang. Followed by a Westinghouse 2550 mini connected to a Model 33 teletype. Saved my BASIC programs on paper tape. In 1975. So you beat me by about 5 years.

I absolutely love what good applications of tech can do, but I still think about how it will fail (because it will) and Murphy's Law says at the worst time. So assess and mitigate risk appropriately. Also, there are a lot of really BAD applications of tech, which make things harder and worse not better and easier. So I'm skeptical of tech for tech's sake.

John
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I have an app on my iPad and iPhone that emulates an HP 15C. It works fine so far as I can tell, but in the reviews some who know infinitely more about this stuff than me assert that the app is inefficiently coded, thus consumes more resources on the iPhone/iPad than it should. I don't use it much, though; got it more as a novelty. I know the hardware on my desk HP 32S III is likely far more reliable.
 
aterpster said:
I have an app on my iPad and iPhone that emulates an HP 15C. It works fine so far as I can tell, but in the reviews some who know infinitely more about this stuff than me assert that the app is inefficiently coded, thus consumes more resources on the iPhone/iPad than it should. I don't use it much, though; got it more as a novelty. I know the hardware on my desk HP 32S III is likely far more reliable.
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Apparently my 16C (I'm a software guy) needs batteries again.
 
aterpster said:
I had one of those for a long time. But, I forgot it on an airline trip. By that time, it was out of production.
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That's what amazon and eBay are for . . .

On my phone, I have "RPN Calculator" which is similar but a little different; on my tablet, I have "go41c" which is an exact duplicate of the HP41C and makes me miss the extra functions in my 41CX (and the large buttons are strange). Not sure what's available in the Apple store, you'll have to search and hope.
 
Hank S said:
That's what amazon and eBay are for . . .

On my phone, I have "RPN Calculator" which is similar but a little different; on my tablet, I have "go41c" which is an exact duplicate of the HP41C and makes me miss the extra functions in my 41CX (and the large buttons are strange). Not sure what's available in the Apple store, you'll have to search and hope.
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The 15C app is sufficient for me.
 
aterpster said:
How do you get to the legend?
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avi8tor said:
On your maps view tap on the cog wheel-map touch action-bring chart to fron with legend
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That was a problem with all of the EFBs a number of years ago. Most have figured out there's useful information on the margin and provided a way to get at them.

coloradobluesky said:
I still get the paper delivered in my driveway. What would my dog do if I didn't?
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Ewww. Denver Post? I haven't taken a newspaper since that nasty thing killed the Rocky Mtn News, the real Denver newspaper.

I've held RMN Volume 1, Edition 1 in my hands. One sheet of butcher paper. On butcher paper because the Cherry Creek Press and the RMN guy both showed up in town at the same time from Kansas and set a bet. Whoever published first, got to stay. Wasn't enough room in the town for two newspapers (and never was even later).

RMN guy ran to the butcher store and bought all his paper and got his paper out before the Cherry Creek guy.

And then later the sucky Denver Post showed up.

Technically RMN Vol 1, Ed 1 is inside of plastic, but close enough. It's in the main vault at the main downtown Denver Public Library, alongside some of the ornate and original playbills and beaded holders for them that Baby Doe Tabor owned and kept for the shows and plays she attended.

Unfortunately access to those items is by imitation only. I had an in... a DPL librarian as a history teacher. Kinda fun to ogle that old stuff.

Remember the Matchless... :)
 
jsstevens said:
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Apparently my 16C (I'm a software guy) needs batteries again.
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I had one of those. It was awesome. I was working in Chincoteaque/Wallops Island for NOAA on a GOES ground system. The calculator fell out of my pocket at Ralph's cottages onto the shell driveway and I ran it over with my car. It was squished, but the display still bravely tried to work. The memory is sharp and I am still grieving 30 years later. :D
 
My father still uses his 16c. He has the app but prefers the physical keys.

I highly recommend people use an EFB over paper charts. For the price of a used iPad with 3G (gps) you get all charts and updates for free and you get to see your plane on the map. Fltplan.com's app if free just load plates and charts at home while on wifi. No need to have a cellular subscription, gps will still work.
Used iPad Air 1st gens with the gps built in go for ~$100 on eBay...

Anybody who is flying IFR and still using paper plates, I suggest buying someone who knows EFBs well a coffee or two to teach you.
 
Yea, well my kids laughed at me when I told them I had to rent a printing 10-key adding machine to do my accounting classes at university. After that, I was working for one of the big accounting firms that used to be famous for the Oscars but is now just infamous for the Oscars, and I was doing spreadsheets on a teletype machine via a telephone modem to a timeshare computer in Ohio. Man that was tough. Well actually I kind of enjoyed it. It was slow but faster than a bunch of manual 14 column worksheets.

But let me tell about the risks of paper maps. I was flying cross-country, solo in the back seat of a Champ with my sectional draped over the back of the front seat. A little puff of air and the sliding window next to the front seat slides open. The map just rises up about 4 inches then plunges deep into the foot well at the front cabin. There I was, completely out of navigation systems. And the only cure was to trim nose up, unfasten my seat belt, and lean way over the front seat to retrieve my moving map from the floor. One untimely bump and I could have been tossed out the door and doomed. I've never liked moving maps after that.
 
I've only use paper charts at this point, but I would reckon an EFB to be great in certain situations.
Especially at night I'd guess it easier than paper with a flashlight?
 
TheGolfPilot said:
My father still uses his 16c. He has the app but prefers the physical keys.

I highly recommend people use an EFB over paper charts. For the price of a used iPad with 3G (gps) you get all charts and updates for free and you get to see your plane on the map. Fltplan.com's app if free just load plates and charts at home while on wifi. No need to have a cellular subscription, gps will still work.
Used iPad Air 1st gens with the gps built in go for ~$100 on eBay...

Anybody who is flying IFR and still using paper plates, I suggest buying someone who knows EFBs well a coffee or two to teach you.
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Do you know anyone who could teach me how to read an EFB in bright sunlight? :D
 
My 1st gen iPad won't run hardly anything anymore. It's slow, battery is weak, but mostly it seems apps are just leaving it behind in general. It won't even play youtube!
Fltplan is good advice. Yet if I were going to drop $100 in order to use it, I'd probably rather spend it on a cheaper/newer android tablet that will run most things. (excluding FF of course).
Newer battery, faster processor, more typical chargers, etc.
 
When I was a Navy enlisted back-seater, flying ferry flights coast-to-coast for helos coming out of depot, I watched some pilots that would take spanking-new charts (they're free right?) and cut them into strips so they could page through them without having to fold and unfold them.

Now, that I'm using Foreflight, I'll sometimes print pertinent sectionals and chart sections off of Skyvector and create strips to use as back ups incase my iPad, iPhone, and the GPS all go TU at the same time.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
They make screen protectors that protect against glare. A lot of people don't know about those.
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Do they actually solve the problem? It seems to me that the issue is lack of brightness, not glare.
 
My 15C is on my desk here at work, use it daily. It's 34 years old and works perfectly. HP made good stuff back in the day.
 
citizen5000 said:
Get a bigger tablet with Foreflight or Garmin Pilot with geo-ref plates. Or get a G1000 panel with geo-ref plates. Light years beyond paper.
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The technology might be light years ahead of paper, but more than likely all of those things put the pilots skills/proficiency in reverse...my 2 cents. I prefer a pilot that can make his/her way with some paper charts and a CDI over one that needs a G1000 and an Ipad to get where they are going.
 
somorris said:
Not an electronics engineer, but an engineer none the less and I carry paper also. I have been using computers since before the advent of the PC and I am a lot more comfortable if I have a paper sectional with me. I also print any IFR charts...
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Engineer as well, and I agree. I think you and I would get a long very well.
 
TRocket said:
The technology might be light years ahead of paper, but more than likely all of those things put the pilots skills/proficiency in reverse...my 2 cents. I prefer a pilot that can make his/her way with some paper charts and a CDI over one that needs a G1000 and an Ipad to get where they are going.
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No doubt about it.
 
A note from the other end of the spectrum: I just realized I stopped using Sectionals and Low Enroutes in favor of ForeFlight's 'Aeronautical' displays. I've been paperless and pencil-less for over 5 years now. I now find the electronic display of these paper charts inferior to FF's iPad display optimized charts.

I still use Sectionals to figure out what airport to use to visit a particular place. I overlay the low enroute for IFR navigation in the NE corridor where they still assign Victor airways, but otherwise the FF Aeronauticals are easiest for cross country travel.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Wellll, I started on a Vic 20! So there, and yes, I'm old.
 
citizen5000 said:
I am not criticizing anyone for using paper charts. I just don't understand why given the tools out there now.
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Well, for one thing, they allow much larger dynamic range.

Especially approach plates. Paper ones are easy to view all at once, especially viewing the planview and profile at the same time. iPads (especially minis) require a lot of pinching and zooming at the highest workload phase of flight.

You can print at 2000 DPI. No electronic display is nearly that good. And paper is simultaneously physically larger at the same time.
 
citizen5000 said:
Get a bigger tablet with Foreflight or Garmin Pilot with geo-ref plates. Or get a G1000 panel with geo-ref plates. Light years beyond paper.
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Wait, REALLY?

Plates (FliteCharts) on a G1000 MFD are next to unreadable due to pixelization.

Light years, my behind.
 
jsstevens said:
Man, you guys are old. I started programming in High School on a Wang. Followed by a Westinghouse 2550 mini connected to a Model 33 teletype. Saved my BASIC programs on paper tape. In 1975. So you beat me by about 5 years.

I absolutely love what good applications of tech can do, but I still think about how it will fail (because it will) and Murphy's Law says at the worst time. So assess and mitigate risk appropriately. Also, there are a lot of really BAD applications of tech, which make things harder and worse not better and easier. So I'm skeptical of tech for tech's sake.

John
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I have a Pickett Microline 140 in my desk drawer.

And you really shouldn't be using your Wang for that sort of thing. Makes you go blind. :D
 
MAKG1 said:
Well, for one thing, they allow much larger dynamic range.

Especially approach plates. Paper ones are easy to view all at once, especially viewing the planview and profile at the same time. iPads (especially minis) require a lot of pinching and zooming at the highest workload phase of flight.

You can print at 2000 DPI. No electronic display is nearly that good. And paper is simultaneously physically larger at the same time.
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There's also the fact that paper charts can be read in direct sunlight, the batteries never run down, if you drop them they don't break, and if you lose one, you're only out eight or ten bucks, instead of hundreds.

I recognize that electronic charts have some great advantages as well (and I use both), but this idea that no one in their right mind could prefer paper ignores the fact that both types of charts have their drawbacks.
 
Flying with out of date paper is worse than any sunlight effect on a tablet which will always be current. Just getting guys to follow a checklist is hard enough, no way they are flying with current paper if they are not using an EFB.
 
Like I said, both systems have their advantages.
 
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