Panel-mount backup attitude options...

fiveoboy01

fiveoboy01

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What's out there for electric backups? Everyone says Aspen, but just paid for an overhaul and don't have that much cash laying around. $5-6K, in that range. I am not overly comfortable flying IMC without some sort of backup in the event of a vacuum failure.

I do have a Stratus 2S and an ipad, but I am still thinking I'd like something permanently mounted. Not sure if a "conventional looking" electric AI or an EFIS-type presentation would be better.

Note: I'm not yet instrument rated, but will be soon. Blown engine sort of messed with my checkride plans:redface:
 
Personally I'd go this route, WAAAAY more bang for the buck


http://www.grtavionics.com/mini-ga.html


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Related question:

Let's say I have the Sandia unit installed. Would it/could it occupy the turn coordinator spot in my instrument panel? It's got a ball, but no rate of turn info. Not sure if it could replace that instrument or not.
 
James331 said:
Personally I'd go this route, WAAAAY more bang for the buck


http://www.grtavionics.com/mini-ga.html
Click to expand...

It sounded too good to be true, so I contacted them and asked, and well... it is. It can interface with some avionics, but with more restrictions than the website says, and it does not have any air data capability. Sounds like the website developers copy pasted stuff from non-certified products when the created the page...
 
TUPilot said:
It sounded too good to be true, so I contacted them and asked, and well... it is. It can interface with some avionics, but with more restrictions than the website says, and it does not have any air data capability. Sounds like the website developers copy pasted stuff from non-certified products when the created the page...
Click to expand...

Read the other articles about it.

It's a "panel mount"
 
I prefer something certified. That Sandia unit looks like a pretty good piece.
 
James331 said:
Read the other articles about it.

It's a "panel mount"
Click to expand...

I spoke with the folks that developed it... don't think an article is going to go into more detail... its not a bad unit, but more of a tablet based AHRS with an elegant mounting solution than a true backup instrument like the Sandia. Depends what you need.
 
It is.

I get the partial panel thing if the vacuum system goes out. I'd prefer a backup AI over the TC.
 
A wet vacuum pump is prolly the cheapest option...or just replace the dry pump with a unit that has the inspection port (if you don't already have such a unit). The AI itself is reliable and will tell you when it is failing. The pump is the weak link.
 
I've got a brand new Rapco dry pump with an inspection port. I'm not worried about the AI, but a vacuum failure which would render it useless.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
What's out there for electric backups? Everyone says Aspen, but just paid for an overhaul and don't have that much cash laying around. $5-6K, in that range. I am not overly comfortable flying IMC without some sort of backup in the event of a vacuum failure.

I do have a Stratus 2S and an ipad, but I am still thinking I'd like something permanently mounted. Not sure if a "conventional looking" electric AI or an EFIS-type presentation would be better.

Note: I'm not yet instrument rated, but will be soon. Blown engine sort of messed with my checkride plans:redface:
Click to expand...


how about:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/trutrakADI2a.php?clickkey=282402
 
hindsight2020 said:
Vaporware. They keep pushing the stock date. It was supposed to be on the shelves at Spruce on 15 Nov 15. Something's fishy at Sandia regarding this product.

Click on "where to buy" and it displays an error page. You couldn't make it up LOL
Click to expand...

Well, Hell.
 
I like the looks of that GRT unit - but is it vapor as well?
 
No matter how much I look for something that would be cheaper to maintain than a standard vacuum AI and electric TC, I can't find anything!

Coming from the tech industry, my thought process usually goes: "no moving parts = cheaper and more reliable"

In aviation, it's definitely not cheaper. Is it more reliable?
 
Have you considered a backup electric vacuum pump?

One of the 172s I fly has this, and it's rather convenient for taxi as you can turn it on and not worry about the vacuum going down when you pull the throttle to idle to keep the taxi speed sane.

It's controlled by a switch under the yoke, near the external lights.
 
Or replace your vacuum pump every 500 hours whether it needs it or not.
 
SCCutler said:
I like the looks of that GRT unit - but is it vapor as well?
Click to expand...

No, it's been around for a while, but it relies on GPS in order to take the drift out of silicon gyros (well, rate sensors actually). If it loses GPS, it goes into Big Red X mode in a few minutes. Sandia uses actual gravity as a reference, which is a key difference. I think it's an amazing trick, actually. For that reason most or all other mini-EFIS systems require some kind of unrelated reference. AvMap Ultra and MGL use GPS, same as GRT. Tru-Trak's Gemini, I think, uses internal magnetometer. Dynons always have magnetometers. Personally I would not want to rely on GPS-slaved AI.
 
zaitcev said:
Meanwhile in the real world, people install Sandia unit in real airplanes
http://flyhusky.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=15095
Click to expand...

In the real world, I can't buy one, unless you can point me in the correct direction.

Spruce says January 20 2016, and I was just in my avionics shop today and they can't get them yet either, and they're a dealer.

I'm leaning towards the Ray Allen AI and adding their battery backup. It would be nice to have pitot/static info but it's unlikely that my pitot/static system AND my vacuum would fail at the same time. I can also add the ball onto the bottom, so it's not an issue to put it in the spot where my TC resides.
 
Honestly, if you've got 5-6k sitting around ready for the project, save your cash a little longer and pop for the Aspen. I've seen used ones on Beechtalk and around for 7-8k for the part and installed you're probably around 10k. That gets you a nice backup. I've been really happy with my Aspen. Plus you get other goodies like GPSS with it.
 
Bob Noel said:
how about:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/trutrakADI2a.php?clickkey=282402
Click to expand...

I LOVED my TruTrak ADI2 ... what a truly wonderful piece of gear. Wings level and climbing is so completely obvious. Just a great piece of kit.

EDIT: To be clear, the marks on the face of the ADI2 are vertical speed, NOT pitch attitude. The ADI2 gives you vertical rate, roll, ground track and yaw all on one instrument with a battery backup to boot. This is not your fathers backup attitude indicator.
 
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ahkahn said:
Honestly, if you've got 5-6k sitting around ready for the project, save your cash a little longer and pop for the Aspen. I've seen used ones on Beechtalk and around for 7-8k for the part and installed you're probably around 10k. That gets you a nice backup. I've been really happy with my Aspen. Plus you get other goodies like GPSS with it.
Click to expand...

I've thought about this. IDK. I know how the line of thinking goes "as long as you're spending X, might as well spend X+Y".... And that's how I go broke:)

Already have GPSS anyway. Stop trying to make me poor!! Hehe.
 
The RCA is the most economic upgrade that doesn't involve a mechanical gyro. The only reason I haven't pulled the trigger on one is i saw a video on it where it erroneously pitches up on a Baron as part of takeoff acceleration. I expect better logic than that for 3 amus.
 
TUPilot said:
It sounded too good to be true, so I contacted them and asked, and well... it is. It can interface with some avionics, but with more restrictions than the website says, and it does not have any air data capability. Sounds like the website developers copy pasted stuff from non-certified products when the created the page...
Click to expand...


I saw this unit at Sun n Fun last year with my very own eyes...it DOES have air data inputs (static and ram air)
 
fiveoboy01 said:
In the real world, I can't buy one, unless you can point me in the correct direction.

Spruce says January 20 2016, and I was just in my avionics shop today and they can't get them yet either, and they're a dealer.

I'm leaning towards the Ray Allen AI and adding their battery backup. It would be nice to have pitot/static info but it's unlikely that my pitot/static system AND my vacuum would fail at the same time. I can also add the ball onto the bottom, so it's not an issue to put it in the spot where my TC resides.
Click to expand...

Which specific RC Allen AI did you decide on? The TC gyro in my panel is failing and I have been considering something similar with the optional slip indicator, if it can be done reasonably economically.
 
GRG55 said:
Which specific RC Allen AI did you decide on? The TC gyro in my panel is failing and I have been considering something similar with the optional slip indicator, if it can be done reasonably economically.
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The guy at the avionics shop showed me the 2600(3 inch), the slip/skid indicator can be purchased separate and screws to the bottom.

Other nice feature is that you can get a battery backup module for it, priced reasonably. If the unit alerts you that ship power is lost, flip a switch and you're running off the backup.

He also took me out to the shop where a Cirrus had just had its "3 pack" replaced by an overlay panel and the L3 electric AI. That's a really nice piece.. But it's much more expensive than the other options..

I haven't finalized my decision, still thinking about it. Haven't ruled out the conventional-style backup AI either.

For those in the know, does it make sense to put the electric AI where my vacuum one now sits, and move the vacuum AI to the TC hole??
 
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I love flying with Aspen in someone else's airplane, but it has certain downsides. First, I often find it with knobs broken after a while. Yeah, I know, renters abuse rentals. Still, knobs aren't falling off Kollsman windows. Also, it heats up insanely. Not that anyone should ever touch it, unless you somehow manage to put your hand on the glareshield in flight... And finally, I once practiced a gear retraction checklist in an Arrow that called for energetic side-to-side yaw. Stepping that threw Aspen into red X with loss of AHARS. Fortunately, it recovered in a minute, but it sure was unnerving.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
The guy at the avionics shop showed me the 2600(3 inch), the slip/skid indicator can be purchased separate and screws to the bottom.

Other nice feature is that you can get a battery backup module for it, priced reasonably. If the unit alerts you that ship power is lost, flip a switch and you're running off the backup.

He also took me out to the shop where a Cirrus had just had its "3 pack" replaced by an overlay panel and the L3 electric AI. That's a really nice piece.. But it's much more expensive than the other options..

I haven't finalized my decision, still thinking about it. Haven't ruled out the conventional-style backup AI either.

For those in the know, does it make sense to put the electric AI where my vacuum one now sits, and move the vacuum AI to the TC hole??
Click to expand...

I assume the "overlay panel" is a single screen Aspen?

The L-3 Trilogy is a beautiful piece of equipment, with an equally "beautiful" price tag. I would prefer not to have to buy my airplane back from the avionics shop. :yikes:

Hence my interest in the RC Allen options. Very interested in what you finally decide.
 
No. An overlay panel replaced the "3 pack" with a single L3 where the 3 backup instruments were.

I agree about the price... I'll definitely update this if/when I get something installed. Haven't ruled out the Sandia yet either...
 
fiveoboy01 said:
In the real world, I can't buy one, unless you can point me in the correct direction.

Spruce says January 20 2016, and I was just in my avionics shop today and they can't get them yet either, and they're a dealer. .
Click to expand...
A friend of mine just had one installed in his new to him Cessna 340. He got it within a few days of placing the order so they're definitely available. Sure looks to be the best bang/buck in a backup flight instrument if your primary setup is glass. My only wish is that they'd include Baro in so you don't need to put the altimeter setting into multiple devices.

OTOH if you have steam gauges, I'd look into an electric AI such as the Castlebury unit that Sporty's sells.

And WRT the suggestions for improving the vacuum supply: A vacuum gyro can fail even when the supply of air remains. An electric AI, especially one with battery backup covers all the bases.

Finally on the TC replacement issue, the rules allow you to replace a turn rate instrument with a second AI in most GA piston airplanes.
 
zaitcev said:
I love flying with Aspen in someone else's airplane, but it has certain downsides. ... And finally, I once practiced a gear retraction checklist in an Arrow that called for energetic side-to-side yaw. Stepping that threw Aspen into red X with loss of AHARS. Fortunately, it recovered in a minute, but it sure was unnerving.
Click to expand...

I had similar experiences landing in strong wind. The red X appeared when I pulled off the active and stopped when switching to Ground.

The manual warns that the AHARS does that during "slow speeds" when it sees signficant discrepancies between the pitot and GPS velocities (air and ground speeds).

(Or, maybe it is just a vagarity of 492)
 
> "I LOVED my TruTrak ADI2 ... what a truly wonderful piece of gear. Wings level and climbing is so completely obvious. Just a great piece of kit."

I double second that. I've had the 3 inch model since 2006 or 7. It and I have been through a lot of bad weather together. Wonderfully responsive and reliable instrument that I wouldn't trade for anything.

The optional GPS puck, BTW, is for displaying ground track and is not at all involved in attitude - like the Dynon D2 for instance. Lose your GPS signal with the D2 and you've lost your horizon.

Long live the TruTrak ADI. I wish they would bring back the 3 inch version - although mine is showing no signs of wearing out.
 
TruTrack Gemeni ADI... 1300$ with the battery backup.
 
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