Panel Mods?

[MBDiagMan]

I'm new here and in the process of buying a plane with a dated IFR panel;
Two non flip flop COMS(Narco 120,) one NavCom VOR/GS/LOC with marker beacon. Second NavCom with VOR only.(Narco NAV 121 & 122.

I am told that I will need a DME and flip flop radios. Will I have to change indicators from the nav coms to indicators for the flip flop radios to tune the nav aid?

I am early in the process, but I would like to start getting an idea of what I need to change in the panel for a reasonable IFR setup. I will have to get my IR as a means to my CFI.

Thanks for your help,
Doc

 

[TMetzinger]

As with everything else.... "it depends". Are you planning on keeping the airplane for a long time, or discarding it as soon as you've completed the Instrument rating?

The Narco stuff has been abandoned (Narco's out of business) so that the ability for support for those radios is in serious doubt at the moment. That pretty much means you need all new radios. And you may well need/want new CDI's too.

What I'd suggest if you're trying to keep costs low would be a GNS430W (gives you COMM/NAV/LOC/GS/GPS/WAAS in one unit). You could stop right there, but I'd suggest you find a used King KX155 Nav/Com for your second radio. Depending on who makes your audio panel and transponder you will probably want to replace those with Garmin gear.

Garmin gear costs a little more, but enhances the resale value, so you lose comparatively less money.

Find out how much the radios themselves cost, and then budget the same amount for installation.

If you're gonna keep the airplane for a long time, then you might consider putting in the G500 system if you've got it, and or the new Garmin navigators with the touch screens. YES, your panel will be worth more than the rest of your airplane, but when you're flying in the clouds there's a lot of comfort in having good avionics.

If you're going to do a lot of flying in the clouds, consider adding onboard weather via your new radio stack or with a portable solution.

 

[SCCutler]

Doc:

There is no limit to how much of your money we can spend (grin).

To counsel you, though, we need to know a little more about you, your flying, your plane and your budget.

For example, you have two Narco stand-alone NAVs (the 121 and 122) which, if in good and workmanlike condition, are just fine for your use. On the other hand, most would tell you (and I am one of those "most") that the best bang for your buck is to pop in a Garmin GNS430W, which will give you in one box IFR certifiable GPS (which serves to eliminate the requirement for DME), a COM radio with flip-flop and a NAV radio with flip flop and Glide Slope receiver. You would still need a new indicator, most likely replacing the 121 with a GI106 Garmin or equivalent.

Tell us more.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks for the quick responses!

Okay, here's my situation. It is quite lengthy so I'll try to limit my writings to the part that applies to this question since I'm quite gabby.

I'm now on iPhone so patience appreciated.

I have two goals and purchasing a Cessna 140 with a very nice but old panel. Goal one is to get my cfi. I don't look to do much flying in the big white puffy things. If I were to end having to get it in another plane 4 ir training that's an option. The ir for me is just a means to th end.

Goal two is after training going in and out of my grass strip. Having an ifr plane for the long term is not a bad thing though.

Thanks,
Doc

Doc

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Now, why is it you can't get your ir in this airplane as equipped? Everything works reliably, yes? If you don't really want to fly IMC, why not get a good portable GPS and spend the rest of the money on avgas. If the radios quit , the upgrade to a 430 or sl 40.How much x/c ifr your gonna want to do in a c-140? My CFII only let me fly by the needles until I got rated anyway.

 

[ajstoner21]

Now, why is it you can't get your ir in this airplane as equipped? Everything works reliably, yes? If you don't really want to fly IMC, why not get a good portable GPS and spend the rest of the money on avgas. If the radios quit , the upgrade to a 430 or sl 40.How much x/c ifr your gonna want to do in a c-140? My CFII only let me fly by the needles until I got rated anyway.

From what I've read, as currently equipped, he can't fly 3 different approaches. He could fly a VOR, ILS and that sounds like thats it. ADF/NDB is going out quick. He could probably do most of the training as is, but he wouldn't be able to take the checkride in this unless he could fly 3 different approaches.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

He could certainly learn the procedures, and practice a few times before taking the ride in a rental, and be thousands ahead of the game. Imho, a 430 in a c-140 is a few too many eggs in the pudding...

 

[MBDiagMan]

Now, why is it you can't get your ir in this airplane as equipped? Everything works reliably, yes? If you don't really want to fly IMC, why not get a good portable GPS and spend the rest of the money on avgas. If the radios quit , the upgrade to a 430 or sl 40.How much x/c ifr your gonna want to do in a c-140? My CFII only let me fly by the needles until I got rated anyway.

I do not know but have been told I will need a dme or panel mounted gps to be legal. Also told that I need a flip flop for changing freqs during approach,

All panel equip in good shape and working well.

Thanks for your response.
Doc

 

[Everskyward]

From what I've read, as currently equipped, he can't fly 3 different approaches. He could fly a VOR, ILS and that sounds like thats it. ADF/NDB is going out quick. He could probably do most of the training as is, but he wouldn't be able to take the checkride in this unless he could fly 3 different approaches.

He could do VOR and localizer only for his two non-precision approaches. He could also do a back course if there is one around.

 

[ajstoner21]

I do not know but have been told I will need a dme or panel mounted gps to be legal. Also told that I need a flip flop for changing crews during approach,

All panel equip in good shape and working well.

Thanks for your response.
Doc

You can certainly fly IFR legally without a DME, although you would be more limited than if you had one. And a flip-flop is just a matter of convenience.

DME is only required if your approaches say its needed. DME is also required if VOR navigational equipement is required/used above 24,000 feet. (91.205(e))

I think you are fine without a DME if you don't fly above 24,000 feet, although it would certainly be useful

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I do not know but have been told I will need a dme or panel mounted gps to be legal. Also told that I need a flip flop for changing crews during approach,

All panel equip in good shape and working well.

Thanks for your response.
Doc

You only need dme if you're going to fly dme approaches, and you only need a panel mount, certfied gps if you are going to use it as your primary means of navigation under IFR. You can use a handheld (or iPad) all you want for situational awareness. Flip-flop coms will make your job easier, in that the radios will already be tuned, but it's not a requirement.
It's your checkbook, but you could get 99% of yor training done in your a/c as is, albeit old school. Some might say you'd end up a better trained. GPS approaches are easy after learning to fly vor and ILS needles.

It's your checkbook.

 

[ajstoner21]

You only need dme if you're going to fly dme approaches, and you only need a panel mount, certfied gps if you are going to use it as your primary means of navigation under IFR. You can use a handheld (or iPad) all you want for situational awareness. Flip-flop coms will make your job easier, in that the radios will already be tuned, but it's not a requirement.
It's your checkbook, but you could get 99% of yor training done in your a/c as is, albeit old school. Some might say you'd end up a better trained. GPS approaches are easy after learning to fly vor and ILS needles.

It's your checkbook.

I've heard about a "study" that was done using two groups of pilots. Both groups started from zero experience. One group started private pilot training with a G1000, and the other group started with the old school 6 pack steam gauges. Both groups went through to their instrument rating checkride. After, the groups switched types of instrumentation. Six pack guys, went to G1000, and vice versa. The group that started with the 6 pack had a MUCH easier time transitioning than the G1000 guys, since the G1000 pretty much spoils you and does most of the work for you.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I've heard about a "study" that was done using two groups of pilots. Both groups started from zero experience. One group started private pilot training with a G1000, and the other group started with the old school 6 pack steam gauges. Both groups went through to their instrument rating checkride. After, the groups switched types of instrumentation. Six pack guys, went to G1000, and vice versa. The group that started with the 6 pack had a MUCH easier time transitioning than the G1000 guys, since the G1000 pretty much spoils you and does most of the work for you.

Don't even have to go to the g1000. The 430 calculates wind correction angles and tells you where and when to turn for intercepts , procedure turns hold entries and such. Nice, but IR candidates need to learn this stuff on their own.

 

[ajstoner21]

Don't even have to go to the g1000. The 430 calculates wind correction angles and tells you where and when to turn for intercepts , procedure turns hold entries and such. Nice, but IR candidates need to learn this stuff on their own.

Agreed.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Two non flip flop COMS(Narco 120,) one NavCom VOR/GS/LOC with marker beacon. Second NavCom with VOR only.(Narco NAV 121 & 122.

Only problem with Narco is lack of support. (That was pretty much the case BEFORE they went out of business, too.) So, what you have there is fine - But you need to be prepared to replace it when it breaks.

I am told that I will need a DME and flip flop radios. Will I have to change indicators from the nav coms to indicators for the flip flop radios to tune the nav aid?

NEED? You don't NEED either one of those. They're nice to have, but not necessary. As for the indicators, it depends on what you have now and what type of radio you buy. But, since you've got Narco now and you wouldn't be replacing it with Narco, chances are you will need new indicators.

For now, just fly the 140 as-is so you gain experience. You might also want to try renting an airplane that has flip-flop radios and DME, and also rent an airplane with the Garmin 430W - It's a nice unit. See what you like, get quotes, and decide what's worthwhile.

BTW, a G500 in a C140??? Man, that'd be cool, but holy overkill, Batman!

 

[MBDiagMan]

What great feedback and encouragement! Getting my IR with steam gauges and old nav comms doesn't bother me as long as I can make it happen. Any added flight time doesn't bother me too much unless it's like three times as much.

On another forum, I had a CFI warn me about the lack of DME and flip flops saying that the added workload would be a serious stress test. Putting a flip flop in place of one of the Comms would be easy and sort of cheap. There is a DME NavCom that I can get relatively cheap in overhauled form and replace the VOR nav com. It wouldn't take too much to do this.

My goal has been to move along one step at a time, so as suggested by cheesehead, I'm just gonna fly. I need to build 100 hours of XC for the commercial and the IR. Hopefully after some XC behind me I can start focusing on learning more about IFR and the necessary ingredients. I will be referring back to this thread alot along the way, so all these great comments and suggestions are really appreciated.

Doc

 

[Henning]

I do not know but have been told I will need a dme or panel mounted gps to be legal. Also told that I need a flip flop for changing crews during approach,

All panel equip in good shape and working well.

Thanks for your response.
Doc

I did my IR in a 172 with a single Kx 170B (non flip flop) nav/com and an ADF. That's pretty much bare minimum to get the approaches. The DE climbed in the plane, looked at the panel and stated, "You've got balls, you know with that stack I'm gonna give you an intersection hold right?". I passed without a problem, even shot the last, partial panel non precision, approach in actual.

That said if you buy a 140 that you really like and intend on keeping it, if your financial situation allows, go ahead and put a 430W in it. With the new Garmin radios out, these are coming out and getting sold at a pretty fair price. I've seen quotes of $7500 installed. If not, a DME will be good, I'm not sure how much cheaper one is by the time it's installed though.

 

[Henning]

BTW, a G500 in a C140??? Man, that'd be cool, but holy overkill, Batman!

I'd have a hard time resisting anymore, it's really sweet in the 310.

 

[ajstoner21]

I did my IR in a 172 with a single Kx 170B (non flip flop) nav/com and an ADF. That's pretty much bare minimum to get the approaches. The DE climbed in the plane, looked at the panel and stated, "You've got balls, you know with that stack I'm gonna give you an intersection hold right?". I passed without a problem, even shot the last, partial panel non precision, approach in actual.

That said if you buy a 140 that you really like and intend on keeping it, if your financial situation allows, go ahead and put a 430W in it. With the new Garmin radios out, these are coming out and getting sold at a pretty fair price. I've seen quotes of $7500 installed. If not, a DME will be good, I'm not sure how much cheaper one is by the time it's installed though.

Ha! Thats funny. What kind of intersection was it? Was the fix marked by a VOR Radial and an ADF Bearing or did he make you do some crazy fast frequency changes with the Nav radio?

 

[Henning]

What great feedback and encouragement! Getting my IR with steam gauges and old nav comms doesn't bother me as long as I can make it happen. Any added flight time doesn't bother me too much unless it's like three times as much.

On another forum, I had a CFI warn me about the lack of DME and flip flops saying that the added workload would be a serious stress test.

I did all 40hrs of my IR training and the checkride inside of a week and I had Satan for an instructor. We did 38 of my 40 hrs partial panel and he threw everything at me including adding control pressures and whatever else he could think of to mess with me. My DE beat me up flipping that NAV, none of it was anywhere near as stressfull as doing a no gyro approach for real and picking up a major load of ice while I was at it. Learning to deal with the failures and the stress in training is a good thing, it'll save your life when it all goes wrong for real, and it does...

 

[Henning]

Ha! Thats funny. What kind of intersection was it? Was the fix marked by a VOR Radial and an ADF Bearing or did he make you do some crazy fast frequency changes with the Nav radio?

LAX and SLI VORs, flipping freques and dialing the OBS back and forth from the missed at Torrance.. Hit the intersection right on the money and went into a standard rate right turn. At that point he said "Good enough, if you found the intersection and knew which way to turn, I'm sure you can fly the hold."

 

[ajstoner21]

LAX and SLI VORs, flipping freques and dialing the OBS back and forth from the missed at Torrance.. Hit the intersection right on the money and went into a standard rate right turn. At that point he said "Good enough, if you found the intersection and knew which way to turn, I'm sure you can fly the hold."

I'm impressed! That sounds like a PITA!

 

[Henning]

I'm impressed! That sounds like a PITA!

I had been doing it all week. It's really not bad once you get stabilized on your heading on the correct radial out from the intersection. You just go back and forth checking where along the radial you are until you are needle alive on the correct intersecting radial and hold your heading until the needle hits then set your radio for the hold and start the timer, then you only change the radio back and forth once every 4 minutes. It's really not that bad and it keeps you from "chasing the needle" and gets you to adjust your heading for stability which gives you a better mindset for flying an ILS.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd have a hard time resisting anymore, it's really sweet in the 310.

No doubt. Were I to have an airplane and the dough to do it, I'd put in a G750, G650, G600, and a JPI 960.

Not quite ready for that yet tho.

 

[shenanigans]

I'm just finishing my IFR training, so I don't have the experience of the others posting. I did nearly all of my training without GPS, DME, or flip flops. As noted by others, none are required, but for training purposes the only one I really missed was DME.

You might find that lack of a DME limits your options for training (or at least makes it less convienent) because of the number of 'DME required' approaches. Or not, I don't know. But you can check the approachs near where you're training and see how many will be unavailable.

I need to build 100 hours of XC for the commercial and the IR.

I'm pretty sure you only need 50 hours XC for those ratings

 

[Henning]

I'm just finishing my IFR training, so I don't have the experience of the others posting. I did nearly all of my training without GPS, DME, or flip flops. As noted by others, none are required, but for training purposes the only one I really missed was DME.

You might find that lack of a DME limits your options for training (or at least makes it less convienent) because of the number of 'DME required' approaches. Or not, I don't know. But you can check the approachs near where you're training and see how many will be unavailable.

I'm pretty sure you only need 50 hours XC for those ratings

Even operationally I agree, without a GPS, the DME makes life so much easier, next on the (non glass) list is an HSI. If the 310 would have had a modern 6 pack with an HSI and DME, I would not have gotten the 430W and G-500.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

. I've seen quotes of $7500 installed. If not, a DME will be good, I'm not sure how much cheaper one is by the time it's installed though.

He'll need a 106a indicator too for another $1.5-1.8k plus install, so I doubt he'll get away with less than $10k. A lot of avionics bucks for what will be essentally a low and slow vfr use bird. But hey, if he's got it ...

 

[MBDiagMan]

I'm just finishing my IFR training, so I don't have the experience of the others posting. I did nearly all of my training without GPS, DME, or flip flops. As noted by others, none are required, but for training purposes the only one I really missed was DME.

You might find that lack of a DME limits your options for training (or at least makes it less convienent) because of the number of 'DME required' approaches. Or not, I don't know. But you can check the approachs near where you're training and see how many will be unavailable.




I'm pretty sure you only need 50 hours XC for those ratings

You are correct. I was not clear about why I need 100 hrs. XC. My goal is CFI so I will need 100 hrs XC for the commercial. The IR is simply a means to the CFI end. I don't plan on spending much time in IMC for real, but of course, you never know.

Doc

 

[TMetzinger]

With this further information in mind - I don't think the G500 is necessary any more:wink2:. But I still think that a GNS430 gives you the most value for your avionics dollar, and if you're going to open up the panel anyway, you might as well get the most of the labor.

The 430 (or 430W) will eliminate the need for DME, give you the ability to GPS approaches, and make the plane a better platform for teaching IFR in the future.

 

[wabower]

I re-spiffed the panel of an old Cessna taildragger last year, including a 430W and six-pack format. I had a 696 hooked to Zaon traffic and XM in the airplane at the time, and have found that I still use the nav functions of the 696 far more than the 430W. I use the com function of the 430, but spending $10k for flip-flop nav-coms doesn't make any sense for a 140 IMO.

IIWY, I'd talk to the CFII and determine how much of your training you can do without touching the panel. If you can complete the rating, and even if it's a bit of a hassle to deal with the old stuff, just fly it and see how you feel after the rating is complete. If you're not planning to fly a lot of trips, there's no reason to throw a lot of money at the panel.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Again, thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and experience. I'm encouraged that I have a shot at using the panel as is for my IR training, maybe even the check ride.

Here's the panel. Since the purchase is still in process, I blanked out the tail number just for good measure. Once it's mine, I won't have any problem showing it.

 

[SCCutler]

If everything there works, go get the rating - you'll be really good at visualizing where you are, and that's sure to help you in the quality of your learning.

 

[steingar]

I bet in a 140 you could fly IFR with a single nav/com with GS. How stressful is it really going to be? You can just about hover one of those things in a strong wind.

 

[EdFred]

From what I've read, as currently equipped, he can't fly 3 different approaches. He could fly a VOR, ILS and that sounds like thats it. ADF/NDB is going out quick. He could probably do most of the training as is, but he wouldn't be able to take the checkride in this unless he could fly 3 different approaches.

I did my check ride with only two VOR radios, no ADF, and no GPS. I passed...how is that possible?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Again, thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and experience. I'm encouraged that I have a shot at using the panel as is for my IR training, maybe even the check ride.

Here's the panel. Since the purchase is still in process, I blanked out the tail number just for good measure. Once it's mine, I won't have any problem showing it.

Wow. That panel is in a Cessna 140? Someone did a lot of work to it.

FWIW, you can do pretty much all of your IFR training in it the way it is. If you don't really want to do any actual IFR flying with it after you get your rating, I personally wouldn't put any money in it. Save it for the CFI ticket, or for more flying.

My 2 cents.

 

[Henning]

Again, thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and experience. I'm encouraged that I have a shot at using the panel as is for my IR training, maybe even the check ride.

Here's the panel. Since the purchase is still in process, I blanked out the tail number just for good measure. Once it's mine, I won't have any problem showing it.

You're talking about being a CFI, are you planning on using that plane to instruct in? If so, you may want to look at putting brakes on the right...

 

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks for all the very encouraging feedback. The panel was hand fabricated from 1/16" aluminum.

My flying to date, except for my first six hours in an Aeronca Champ with NO radio, has been in a VFR 150 with a flip flop radio. That would be a nice addition. I can get an overhauled Narco flip flop for pretty cheap. Since the comms are narco, it might be that it would plug into the same connector. I doubt it, but it's a possibility.

My plans are not to teach in this plane. When I get to that point I plan on getting a 150 for that purpose unless things are different and a rental is available out here in the boondocks then. The 140 will be my personal plane for flying in and out of my grass strip.

It does have brakes on both sides, just different shaped pedals.

Thanks to all,
Doc

 

[Henning]

My plans are not to teach in this plane. When I get to that point I plan on getting a 150 for that purpose unless things are different and a rental is available out here in the boondocks then. The 140 will be my personal plane for flying in and out of my grass strip.

It does have brakes on both sides, just different shaped pedals.

Thanks to all,
Doc

That's good then, but if it has brakes on both sides, I would reconsider not giving instruction in it. Tailwheel endorsements are a good value added revenue stream. Niche markets always have a higher margin.

 

[MBDiagMan]

That's good then, but if it has brakes on both sides, I would reconsider not giving instruction in it. Tailwheel endorsements are a good value added revenue stream. Niche markets always have a higher margin.

Thanks Henning! I'm so early in this process, that I figure that's a decision I can make on down the road and I haven't ruled it out. I have indeed found that there is a decreasing number of instructors and planes for tailwheel endorsement.

I even saw an ad placed by a guy who will come to you for your tailwheel endorsement. As you say, there is indeed a need. Maybe some day I'll be able to capitalize on it. For now, I'm just concentrating on flying my butt off to get to the IR, Commercial and CFI.

Have a great day,
Doc

 

[Greg Bockelman]

You're talking about being a CFI, are you planning on using that plane to instruct in? If so, you may want to look at putting brakes on the right...

Looks like it DOES have brakes on the right. What indicates to you that it doesn't?