Panel IFR upgrade in the making

[Richard]

I want to upgrade the current panel in my 1962 PA-28-160. I was thinking dual navheads, new audio panel, 3LMB, new DME, at least one new nav/comm radio for now. A GMN 430 would come along later in less than one year from now so I wouldn't want to throw a whole lot of money into redundant features which the 430 would cover once installed.

That's what I was thinking, now comes this:

http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/FlightDEK_intro.html

Would it make sense to just toss everything else aside in favor of the D-180? Please don't tell me, it depends on what the definition of 'sense' is. Sometimes I wish I had less options from which to choose, it would make life easier.

 

[tonycondon]

hmmm im not sure that the Dynon is able to go in certified aircraft. I thought it was experimental only. If not, itd be mighty cool and pretty cheap for a glass display.

 

[Everskyward]

hmmm im not sure that the Dynon is able to go in certified aircraft. I thought it was experimental only.

This is what they say in their FAQ:

Is the FlightDEK-D180 certified? Can it be used in a certified aircraft?

The FlightDEK-D180 is not certified and we are not planning to certify this version of the instrument. Any use of the instrument in a certified aircraft would require you to work with the FAA on an individual basis (the "337" field approval process).

I saw one of these in someone's RV and thought it was pretty cool.

 

[Michael]

Id love to have one.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I want to upgrade the current panel in my 1962 PA-28-160. I was thinking dual navheads, new audio panel, 3LMB, new DME, at least one new nav/comm radio for now. A GMN 430 would come along later in less than one year from now so I wouldn't want to throw a whole lot of money into redundant features which the 430 would cover once installed.

The 430 comes with its own nav head... If you don't want to be redundant, I'd suggest a chat with your avionics shop as I'm sure they know how to best minimize redundancies. Also, it seems like new DME would be somewhat redundant unless you really like DME arcs.

We found that it'd cost as much to throw a pair of USED KX-155's in one of our Archers as it would to put in a 430.

 

[flykelley]

There is normally some good buy's on ebay for yellow tag Garmins. But use caution some guys are selling gps's on ebay and getting you to buy outside of ebay and you never get your Gps. I think I would use a escroe account if I was to buy a Garmin off ebay just to cover your butt. I ahve bid and also watched several GPS on ebay only to have ebay pull them off the market cuase of problem of no delivery.

Goos Luck Mike

 

[Len Lanetti]

If I were to upgrade my nav/com avionics from the 2 KX155's, ADF and DME I have today. I would sell or trade in the #2 KX155 (the one without the glideslope), the corresponding OBS and the ADF...replacement would probably be a Garmin 430, a Century 360 HSI and a Garmin 396 with a weather subscription. My current "audio panel" is really just several toggle switches...I would be very tempted to put in a new audio panel with a built in intercom (using a portable intercom today).

I would do the Garming 530 instead of the 430 if I was really flush at the time. I would also consider the Garmin 480 instead of the 430. When it comes time to pull the trigger I will certainly have to look and play with each of the models. For the price of the Garmin handheld with weather I can't see springing for weather in the panel mount GPS.

Note these items are on the same wish list as a two axis autopilot...I'd love to do that all at once but probably not going to happen in the next year.

With regard to the DME...since I have one I'd keep it...I don't think I'd spend the money to buy one though.

Len

 

[Richard]

Ok, I'm old school so you have to explain it to me. You wouldn't add a new DME because the moving map would suffice? I don't know if I'm ready to wean myself from analog just yet. But the pretty glass looks droolicious.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Ok, I'm old school so you have to explain it to me. You wouldn't add a new DME because the moving map would suffice? I don't know if I'm ready to wean myself from analog just yet. But the pretty glass looks droolicious.

Well, it's a matter of choice. If you're IFR, the "real" DME is the only thing you can use to fly a DME arc. You also can't really get a DME-type readout AND the moving map at the same time on the same 430. However, in the 182 (G430, no regular DME unit) I've never missed it. It certainly doesn't hurt to have both, either. If it's not too expensive, might as well go for it.

 

[CJones]

Well, it's a matter of choice. If you're IFR, the "real" DME is the only thing you can use to fly a DME arc. You also can't really get a DME-type readout AND the moving map at the same time on the same 430. However, in the 182 (G430, no regular DME unit) I've never missed it. It certainly doesn't hurt to have both, either. If it's not too expensive, might as well go for it.

I've never used a "real" DME. What type of info does it contain? Distance and Bearing To? If so, you can adjust the display parameters on the moving map to show basically anything you want and I think that "Distance" and "Bearing" are available in the 'anything you want' list.

I think the whole "use GPS for DME approaches" discussion has been hashed out several times with the concensus being that you can't "legally" do it, but I think the functionality is there. Of course, I'm not IR YET *cough* TONY *cough*, so I may very well be proven wrong soon.

-Chris

 

[gismo]

I've never used a "real" DME. What type of info does it contain? Distance and Bearing To? If so, you can adjust the display parameters on the moving map to show basically anything you want and I think that "Distance" and "Bearing" are available in the 'anything you want' list.

I think the whole "use GPS for DME approaches" discussion has been hashed out several times with the concensus being that you can't "legally" do it, but I think the functionality is there. Of course, I'm not IR YET *cough* TONY *cough*, so I may very well be proven wrong soon.

-Chris

Most DMEs give distance, velocity towards station (commonly mislabled groundspeed), and a "time to station" estimate that is simply the distance divided by the speed. A few only give distance and leave it to you and your E6B to figure the rest (it's all based on distance and changing distance over time).

As to the DME arc thing, while I do have DME and would have it tracking the appropriate station when flying a DME arc, my GPS will direct my autopilot (and HSI) to follow such a curved path and I see no reason to to do otherwise. And if I didn't have the DME I'd probably fly arcs to the FAF with the GPS alone. I do expect that this nonsensical attitude of the FAA about the issue will change in the near future but who knows.

That said, I did consider removing the DME (KN-64) during my last upgrade but decided to leave it in for now. It doesn't take up much space and pulling it wouldn't have netted me much more than $1K or so. I do find it useful for things like keeping track of my distance from the center of a Class B as most have some sort of DME at the center, and I've used it now and then to confirm my GPS derived postion when RAIM was out or I had an obsolete DB on the GPS.

BTW the GNS-480 will display a "DME" distance and bearing to the selected VOR on the left side of the display in map mode. This is really GPS derived information, but I think they even call it DME distance in the manual.

 

[AirBaker]

Ok, I'm old school so you have to explain it to me. You wouldn't add a new DME because the moving map would suffice? I don't know if I'm ready to wean myself from analog just yet. But the pretty glass looks droolicious.

I still have mine in the panel, but its OFF most of the time. I'll put it on when I fly IFR just out of habit for my situational awareness. The screen on the 430 and 396 is more than enough for information, but I just feel a bit more 'comfortable' knowing i'm 15 DME from SJC VOR and which is the SUNOL intersection.

That said, in unfamiliar areas, I just punch up the NEAREST page on the GPS and it has all the DME info I need. I would not add DME if I was getting a new panel.

...I've used it now and then to confirm my GPS derived postion when RAIM was out or I had an obsolete DB on the GPS.

Did the VOR move during that last GPS DB cycle?

 

[tonycondon]

I think the whole "use GPS for DME approaches" discussion has been hashed out several times with the concensus being that you can't "legally" do it, but I think the functionality is there. Of course, I'm not IR YET *cough* TONY *cough*, so I may very well be proven wrong soon.

-Chris

nope you are pretty much right on. First lesson August 16 right?

 

[gismo]

Did the VOR move during that last GPS DB cycle?

That's happened now and then. Several years ago they moved the MSP VOR from about 30 NW of KMSP to the tower cab. But what I really meant was that the DME can make a strong case for the GPS position being accurate if the distance to the VOR on the GPS matches what the DME says. Granted that normal operation of a GPS receiver is very unlikely to mis-locate your airplane by very much or for very long, with intentional jamming it could and without RAIM (or WAAS) that could go undetected. Then again my comfort in this probably stems from experiences with LORAN where it was quite plausible (and all too frequent) for an error of several NM to occur.

 

[AirBaker]

That's happened now and then. Several years ago they moved the MSP VOR from about 30 NW of KMSP to the tower cab. But what I really meant was that the DME can make a strong case for the GPS position being accurate if the distance to the VOR on the GPS matches what the DME says. Granted that normal operation of a GPS receiver is very unlikely to mis-locate your airplane by very much or for very long, with intentional jamming it could and without RAIM (or WAAS) that could go undetected. Then again my comfort in this probably stems from experiences with LORAN where it was quite plausible (and all too frequent) for an error of several NM to occur.

Sounds about right!