Panel failure in IMC. A few questions.

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drotto

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drotto
I am very close to having my IFR and will be taking my check ride next month. I was watching a few videos about what can go wrong, and reading some accident reports, you know just to freak myself out, and had a few questions. My plane is primary AHARS with back up vacuum but just for the attitude indicator. The other backups are electrically driven, just for reference.

1. How many people here have really had a partial panel situation?

2. How cautious do you tend to be with planning a flight you know will have IMC portions? First providing it is simple IMC not not complicated by t-storms, or ice. Or knowing some scary stuff could be out there. I am still contiplating my personal minimums.

3. What level of back up systems does your plane have? Are you confident they are enough?

4. Be honest. If you also have something like Foreflight with a Stratus 2, would you use that over trusting yourself using a partial panel if faced with that situation?

Just running a lot of mental assessments regarding getting this rating, and where I will initially put my personal minimums. My CFII seems confident in my abilities, which is very reassuring, but I have much more of a bird kick out of the nest feeling now than I had with my PPL.



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4. I lie like a rug.
3. LOL. One instructor sorta got frustrated because all the primary flight instruments have a backup.
2. I have to be current. No exceptions. It also helps to be proficient. For single pilot work I want the autopilot to be working.
1. See 3. Partial panel can happen in my plane but lots of stuff would have to go wrong. I have had a magneto failure while IFR above a layer. That wasn't much fun.
 
Yes I have had an efis roll inverted about 50 AGL in IMC on takeoff.
Backup instruments need to be immediately available and you need to be capable of going on to them immediately without notice.
A separate autopilot capable of functioning on its own is helpful. A mix of electronic and vacuum is helpful.
 
I've had a couple of partial panel events, both with needle-ball-airspeed as my backup. Neither one required an approach, but I was prepared and willing to fly an approach if necessary.

The real key is to be proficient using whatever your backup is. If it's needle, ball, and airspeed, be proficient in that. If it's a backup AI whatever, be proficient in that. Know what your autopilot does or doesn't need for instrumentation.

As far as flight planning, are you proficient enough to fly in whatever weather on your backup, and/or do you have an out that will get you to weather that you're comfortable shooting an approach using your backup?
 
2. How cautious do you tend to be with planning a flight you know will have IMC portions?
>>>Like my life depends upon it. Just make sure you have an Excellent Out at all times.
4. Be honest. If you also have something like Foreflight with a Stratus 2, would you use that over trusting yourself using a partial panel if faced with that situation?
>>>Nope. Would take too long to figure out how to set it up. Maybe if I was on top, I would try to get it going. Otherwise I'm going with the backup AI or TC, whichever I have plus compass.
Click to expand...
 
I have foreflight ,so when all else fails ,I can still use the artificial panel. I had a Garmin 496 with the artificial panel,and used it to shoot some approaches . I also have the aspen pro.
 
Just getting ready to start the IR, so perhaps not the best informed. I will spend nights worried about the vacuum pump until I can afford a backup or an electric backup AI. That said, my iPad will give a functional panel if the ADSB antenna is working. All that said, my current thoughts are that if I have to go partial panel I'll be seeking VFR conditions if at all possible. Even so, I do plan on staying as current as I can manage.

I intend for my minimums to be the approach minima for my departure and destination airports. If the charts say I can do it safely then I will. There's a video somewhere about a guy who tried approaches until he ran out of gas, crashed and died. The punchline is had he gone down to minima on any of them he'd have made it.
 
I am a low VFR guy but had a vacuum failure last week. It was complete non event, but what I realized is, it’s outright dangerous since it tumbled slowly. Know ur AHARS and how it behaves in case of pitot static failure. Some like Aspen(not trying to wage a war here) will X out the whole PFD if the pitot iced up, Garmin doesn’t do that.

having multiple backups is my choice and be proficient (note, not current) is my personal minimums. Planning to do IR this year, so I am already thinking about my personal minimums.


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Vacuum gauges USUALLY fail with warning (they start acting sluggish). If the autopilot uses the TC, then the pilot should monitor the AI more frequently. Lots of IMC flight is done with the DG and AI vacuum, and the rest of the instruments electric. It works!

To stay safer, venture into clouds with VFR that is above the MVA below you. Then if something goes wrong, you can descend and be VFR. Dont get yourself "boxed in" by ice or thunderstorms.
 
I don’t know if this is old school or what, but when I learned IFR my instructor basically taught me partial panel from the get go. The mantra was always “turn coordinator, vertical speed.” If you’re not turning, climbing, or descending, then you’re by definition straight and level. And if those indications along with airspeed are right, how the aircraft is oriented isn’t primarily important.

The consequence of learning that way is that the thought of an AI failure doesn’t bother me in the slightest. DG failure is annoying, but with a compass isn’t really a safety issue, and with ForeFlight even less so.
 
bluesky74656 said:
I don’t know if this is old school or what, but when I learned IFR my instructor basically taught me partial panel from the get go. The mantra was always “turn coordinator, vertical speed.” If you’re not turning, climbing, or descending, then you’re by definition straight and level. And if those indications along with airspeed are right, how the aircraft is oriented isn’t primarily important.

The consequence of learning that way is that the thought of an AI failure doesn’t bother me in the slightest. DG failure is annoying, but with a compass isn’t really a safety issue, and with ForeFlight even less so.
Click to expand...
Yup...I saw the AI for 10 minutes on my first lesson, and again on my checkride. ;)

Not quite that bad, but definitely less than 10 of my 40 hours of instrument dual was full panel when I took the ride. Held me in good stead when I had my AI/vacuum failures. Easy to diagnose, easy to fly.

Proficiency with your backup instrumentation isn't about how much time you spend at it, though...it's about asking yourself, "would I be comfortable shooting an approach after an hour of flying my backup instruments?" If the answer isn't a resounding yes, you're not proficient.
 
WannFly said:
but what I realized is, it’s outright dangerous since it tumbled slowly
Click to expand...
That's the insidious part. In training the instructor puts a big sticker on it so its obvious. In real life you'll diligently follow a degrading AI obediently until next thing you know your compass and DG show a turn and AI shows level, while the altimeter climbs and airspeed drops.. and you're IMC and panicking. It's a terrifying thought

Always check the other gauges during your scan as well to make sure they're in agreement
 
1. Yes.

2. Very. IMC is a harder decision matrix than VMC.

3. Standard six pack,some electric, some vacuum. Has limitations that need to be respected.

4. I’ll happily use any damn thing that works in an emergency. An uncertified AHRS is way better than needle, ball, and airspeed. But still needs to be cross-checked for a reality check conthnously, just like any other instrument always does.

The IR means harder risk decisions, not easier ones. You’re analyzing weather and flight conditions that were an absolute no-go scenario the day before you earned the ticket.
 
A few times over my flying career. Once flying from MEM to GTR (Columbus MS) I was mostly VFR but as I approached GTR I was IMC and no vacuum. It was something like 6-700' OVC. So, for the ILS I had to fly to the VOR, fly an outbound radial to intercept the LOC course outbound, PT, and then shoot the ILS. This what the ILS is now, back when this happened there was a PT and the arc wasn't on it. At the time I was very proficient having my CFII and a few instrument students but it was a little tense concentrating so hard for real.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1803/05855IL18.PDF
 
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Not many realize it but an IFR GPS can make a left/right indicator that can keep a plane level. Remove the map clutter, set to .3 sensitivity, have it on a course line and it will display a right/left line that if kept pointed straight ahead keeps you wings level! Try it.
 
I'd also practice this technique...MUCH more effective than trying to fly like the FAA wants you to if you're down to needle, ball, and airspeed but not proficient at it...

 
My plane has a G5 PFD with a Vacuum AI backup. A year and a half ago, I was flying with a client in his 172 during the early evening and we were shooting an ILS through an overcast that topped at abount 2000-2500 and base at around 600. Everything started OK but in the clouds he was having a had time with the needles and I realized that we had a dual gyro failure. I took the plane, leveled the turn coordinator, added power and pitched to 500 FPM + on the VSI and in 2-3 minutes we were once again visual on top, diverted to RDU and landed.
If you find yourself in that position, the TC and VSI are your immediate go-to instruments (lacking a backup horizon) for straight and level. Back those up with the ASI and ALT for pitch, and hopefully you'll have a vertical card compass for heading. GPS ground track works better though in the turns. The AHRS from my GCL-393D and Garmin Pilot works OK and I have practiced it several times and have some confidence it will work OK, and the synthetic vision also looks pretty dependable. I don't think I's hesitate to use it if needed. Unfortunately, after that long day of flight, the GDL-39 battery died right when we were reaching IMC. I then made the investment to get a spare battery JIC.
 
I’m not sure I understand. Was the G5 failing in some manner? I can’t fathom a situation where a vacuum AI and a G5 would fail simultaneously.

It’s one of the reasons why I am glad I retained my vacuum AI in the TC hole when adding the dual G5’s.

(Question is in reference to the post before mine)
 
drotto said:
I am very close to having my IFR and will be taking my check ride next month. I was watching a few videos about what can go wrong, and reading some accident reports, you know just to freak myself out, and had a few questions. My plane is primary AHARS with back up vacuum but just for the attitude indicator. The other backups are electrically driven, just for reference.

1. How many people here have really had a partial panel situation?

2. How cautious do you tend to be with planning a flight you know will have IMC portions? First providing it is simple IMC not not complicated by t-storms, or ice. Or knowing some scary stuff could be out there. I am still contiplating my personal minimums.

3. What level of back up systems does your plane have? Are you confident they are enough?

4. Be honest. If you also have something like Foreflight with a Stratus 2, would you use that over trusting yourself using a partial panel if faced with that situation?

Just running a lot of mental assessments regarding getting this rating, and where I will initially put my personal minimums. My CFII seems confident in my abilities, which is very reassuring, but I have much more of a bird kick out of the nest feeling now than I had with my PPL.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

1, I have, also had a great CFII with a frasca who simulated a AI failure

2 always presumed it would be IMC for the whole thing if I file IFR, anticipating you're going to get ontop can lead to some hary stuff, presuming it's all IMC and breaking out is a nice bonus.

3 dual /G nav comms, vac AI, electrical eHSI, T&B and autopilot.
Work plane has a few more

4 depends.
 
arkvet said:
I’m not sure I understand. Was the G5 failing in some manner? I can’t fathom a situation where a vacuum AI and a G5 would fail simultaneously.

It’s one of the reasons why I am glad I retained my vacuum AI in the TC hole when adding the dual G5’s.

(Question is in reference to the post before mine)
Click to expand...

He added a sentence at the top about his airplane but the rest of the story was in the client’s airplane, I believe.
 
arkvet said:
I’m not sure I understand. Was the G5 failing in some manner? I can’t fathom a situation where a vacuum AI and a G5 would fail simultaneously.

It’s one of the reasons why I am glad I retained my vacuum AI in the TC hole when adding the dual G5’s.

(Question is in reference to the post before mine)
Click to expand...

Think his plane has the G5, the plane he was flying didn’t have one


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I see somebody got to that before I saw it... I teach the TC + VSI method and monitor with Compass/GPS track and Altimeter. I have my IFR student flying the entire anticipated checkride without the primary gyro. In my plane with the G5 AND still have both vacuum instruments (I always change the vacuum pump every other annual) and the GDL 39-3D with my tablet makes a complete loss of attitude and virtual impossibility.
 
drotto said:
I am very close to having my IFR and will be taking my check ride next month. I was watching a few videos about what can go wrong, and reading some accident reports, you know just to freak myself out, and had a few questions. My plane is primary AHARS with back up vacuum but just for the attitude indicator. The other backups are electrically driven, just for reference.

1. How many people here have really had a partial panel situation?

2. How cautious do you tend to be with planning a flight you know will have IMC portions? First providing it is simple IMC not not complicated by t-storms, or ice. Or knowing some scary stuff could be out there. I am still contiplating my personal minimums.

3. What level of back up systems does your plane have? Are you confident they are enough?

4. Be honest. If you also have something like Foreflight with a Stratus 2, would you use that over trusting yourself using a partial panel if faced with that situation?

Just running a lot of mental assessments regarding getting this rating, and where I will initially put my personal minimums. My CFII seems confident in my abilities, which is very reassuring, but I have much more of a bird kick out of the nest feeling now than I had with my PPL.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

So you are willing to fly IMC in a AHRS equipped single engine airplane and you biggest concern is a partial panel situation? Engine failure tops my list.
 
drotto said:
1. How many people here have really had a partial panel situation?

2. How cautious do you tend to be with planning a flight you know will have IMC portions? First providing it is simple IMC not not complicated by t-storms, or ice. Or knowing some scary stuff could be out there. I am still contiplating my personal minimums.

3. What level of back up systems does your plane have? Are you confident they are enough?

4. Be honest. If you also have something like Foreflight with a Stratus 2, would you use that over trusting yourself using a partial panel if faced with that situation?
Click to expand...
1. I have not...knock on wood. I've had a few failures and 2 1/2 emergency situations in over 1500 hours but none have been instrument related.

2. How cautious would be specific to the plane I was flying. I am more comfortable transiting an area of widespread low IMC in a twin than a single (personal preference). When I was lower time my personal min's for departure/arrival were higher and slowly went down. Currently, I won't depart an airport unless the wx is above the mins for the available approaches back in (in the case of fog, I'd consider the wx of a close airport if there is one available).

3. My plane has a Garmin G5 in the primary AI spot, I have a vacuum AI (2 vacuum pumps) in the turn coordinator spot, I have a turn and bank (would not be happy IFR with only that but I'd have a ton of failures before I got that far...primarily kept because it drives my yaw damper), and I have ForeFlight AI/synthetic vision driven from my GTX345 transponder. I feel confident with my level of back-ups and will be even more so when I upgrade my HSI to another G5.

4. If all I had left for some strange reason is my ForeFlight I wouldn't say I would use it over partial panel but I would for sure have it in my scan.
 
1. Not partial panel, but I lost my GPS and AP in IMC a few days ago due to nav/com interference. Took a few mins to come back. Not difficult to hand fly the plane or anything, but had me wondering what was going on.

2. It takes some time to build confidence in IMC. Only solo (no CFII) IMC will do that for you. I'm confident in anything my plane can handle right now, but have zero night IMC time, so I stay away from that.

3. See below.

4. Absolutely, in a heartbeat. I'll use it in coordination with my panel instruments and I'll use it to save my life if the panel goes completely TU.

For 3:

I have four, count 'em four, AI's in my plane, if I need them.

1. G5 PFD
2. G5 HSI in PFD mode
3. Dynon D2 portable AI
4. Foreflight with AHRS
5. My cell phone velcro'd to the dash can be an AI.

No vacuum system. Dynon D2 is wholly independent of everything else. FF is the same way.

I'm pretty confident in IMC, lol.
 
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