Pakistan International Airlines crash

Condolences to the many familes affected by such a great loss. It is very sad to see such devastation. Here is what was said in an early report:

Pilot Sent Mayday, Aircraft Lost Power - Reports
The pilot sent a Mayday and told controllers the aircraft had lost power in both of its engines during its second attempt to land, according to a recording posted on LiveATC.net.

While the two runways were cleared, the pilot said, "We are returning back, sir, we have lost engines."

Source: https://sputniknews.com/asia/202005...rlines-plane-reportedly-crashes-near-karachi/

Edit: Further down on the page of the above link is a audio from the flight confirming this statement by the pilot.
 
Certainly this cannot be a fuel issue. Can it? I also wonder if this was an airplane that has sat for several months and this was it's first flight back.
 
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Over on a "rumor" site some images that sure appear to show damage on the undersides of both engines have emerged...
 
From the CNN article: "On the recording, air traffic control asks the pilot to confirm a belly landing. The pilot’s response is inaudible."
 
It the gear up and then go around is confirmed, the decision making here needs discussion.

Presumably you hear some scraping or something. Why do you then decide it is better to make this into a problem in the air?

I guess you think maybe the damage is limited and it is better to come back around with the gear known down?

Any general consensus on this? What does the training for commercial jets specify for this situation?
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Any general consensus on this? What does the training for commercial jets specify for this situation?
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I'd guess US training isn't geared towards the lowest common denominator, or in other words, mitigating a gross failure of airmanship. I'd think the assumption to be in said training is that you are competent enough to lower the gear the first time.
 
You never hear of an _accidental_ gear up in a 121 operation! Wow.
 
Gross negligence. Gear warning audible on atc audio before belly landing.
 
I understood the Airbus commercial airplanes to be chock full of computers, with software and hardware designed to protect the airplane from the pilots. But, as was discovered with AF 447, only when the systems are working.

It's difficult to imagine an Airbus with two pilots "allowing itself" to be landed gear up if all the systems were functioning. There might turn out to be more to this than we know?
 
Best guess is a go-around resulting in a brief gear-up, engines damaged and then failed before he could make it back.

 
35 AoA said:
I'd guess US training isn't geared towards the lowest common denominator, or in other words, mitigating a gross failure of airmanship. I'd think the assumption to be in said training is that you are competent enough to lower the gear the first time.
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I've never seen any training on what to do after dragging the engines on a gear-up landing. Once you've damaged the aircraft, I would think that staying on the ground would be the safest option. In other words, you CAN'T always go-around!

Greg Bockelman said:
Wonder what happened to the gear horn. Did they ignore it?
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Yep. You can hear it in the background on the LiveATC audio.

dans2992 said:
You never hear of an _accidental_ gear up in a 121 operation! Wow.
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The only one I can think of was Continental 1943 at IAH. It was a DC9, and they DID put the gear-handle down. The problem was that they had left the engine-driven hydraulic pumps in the "LOW" position so the priority valve wasn't allowing hydraulic pressure to the gear system. You were suppose to use HIGH for takeoff and landing and LOW for cruise. The priority value isolated portions of the system not needed for cruise flight (gear, flaps, slats, etc.). IIRC, it's been a long time, the priority value operated at 1800 psi. Pumps on LOW were 1300-1600. High was 3000.

Another gear-up was Lot 16, a B767. That wasn't unintentional, though. There was a hydraulic leak which disabled the normal extension then a CB had opened which prevented the backup extension of the gear. It wasn't a "gear" CB, and it wasn't located with the majority of the other CBs, so the crew didn't find it. It was on a secondary CB panel just above floor-level under the auxiliary panel (looks like an F/E panel) which is often hidden by the F/O seat.

There have been other mechanic gear failures but I can't remember any other unintentional gear-up landings.

GRG55 said:
It's difficult to imagine an Airbus with two pilots "allowing itself" to be landed gear up if all the systems were functioning.
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What would you expect the airplane to do to prevent it?
 
I want to hear the cockpit recording to this. Unbelievable.
 
In one of the ATC recordings it seems you can hear the gear config alarm going.. they then go around, and one of the photos, in fact both can be seen in two posts above this one, it appears the RAT is out. Occam's razor says they forgot to lower the gear, landed on their engines, tried a go around, and then lost power.

Insane.
 
I had two friends get killed this way. Fortunately they had dropped off their 18 passengers and were deadheading back to base. :(
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
It the gear up and then go around is confirmed, the decision making here needs discussion.

Presumably you hear some scraping or something. Why do you then decide it is better to make this into a problem in the air?

I guess you think maybe the damage is limited and it is better to come back around with the gear known down?

Any general consensus on this? What does the training for commercial jets specify for this situation?
Click to expand...
Go around long before that, unstable approach at 1000ft ifr or 500ft vfr, automatic go around. The “to low gear” is a automatic go around. If true, it’s total pilot error and probable poor training.
 
Is it possible the pilots realized the gear was not down and initiated a go-around but before the plane had a positive rate of climb the engines touched the runway?
 
I saw that video and heard the alarm on the recording.

Not knowing anything else, so I'm curious: According to the first video, that alarm sounds in the event of a landing gear extension failure.

Is that the same audible alarm that sounds if there is a "too low" condition because the crew doesn't extend the gear? What's the AGL limit or other parameters for that alarm?
 
Matthew said:
Is that the same audible alarm that sounds if there is a "too low" condition because the crew doesn't extend the gear? What's the AGL limit or other parameters for that alarm?
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The "Too Low, Gear" audible alert is part of the enhanced GPWS system. That system compares radar altitude with a database of terrain and airport runways. The type of alert given will vary based on the presence of a runway. Without a runway, it would be a terrain warning instead of a gear warning, etc. I'd have to look up the triggering radar altitude for "Too Low, Gear" but it's likely in the 300'-500' range.

The audible alert heard on the ATC audio was a gear warning alert unrelated to altitude.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_proximity_warning_system
 
Doc Holliday said:
Kinda hard to ignore all the warnings the airplane is giving on the way down to the runway.
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Aside from the warning lights, chimes, etc., are there handling and/or sensory cues that would tell an A320 crew that the gear is not down?

My only frame of reference is light retractables I've flown. If I left the gear up on approach in my Bonanza, speed control on final would be obviously different, wind noise would be different; the airplane would do everything but send me a telegram, "This ain't right."
 
Larry in TN said:
The "Too Low, Gear" audible alert is part of the enhanced GPWS system. That system compares radar altitude with a database of terrain and airport runways. The type of alert given will vary based on the presence of a runway. Without a runway, it would be a terrain warning instead of a gear warning, etc. I'd have to look up the triggering radar altitude for "Too Low, Gear" but it's likely in the 300'-500' range.

The audible alert heard on the ATC audio was a gear warning alert unrelated to altitude.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_proximity_warning_system
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Thanks.

When I heard the extended radio transmissions, I didn't hear that warning. Is it silenced if the gear handle is retracted again or by a manual control? I also don't know how much time really elapsed between transmissions.
 
Pilawt said:
Aside from the warning lights, chimes, etc., are there handling and/or sensory cues that would tell an A320 crew that the gear is not down?

My only frame of reference is light retractables I've flown. If I left the gear up on approach in my Bonanza, speed control on final would be obviously different, wind noise would be different; the airplane would do everything but send me a telegram, "This ain't right."
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This is going to be an interesting investigation: The gear extension warning was alarming, and they tried landing anyway. I'm going to assume they noticed the alarm and knew what it was.
 
Pilawt said:
Aside from the warning lights, chimes, etc., are there handling and/or sensory cues that would tell an A320 crew that the gear is not down?
Click to expand...
Of course. You won't be able to slow down. You'll be high and fast and unable to fix it. You'll also get the audible gear warning when flaps are extended to a landing flap setting.

Matthew said:
When I heard the extended radio transmissions, I didn't hear that warning.
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I only heard it on the single transmission. You'll need to find an Airbus pilot to give you the specifics.
 
Pilawt said:
Aside from the warning lights, chimes, etc., are there handling and/or sensory cues that would tell an A320 crew that the gear is not down?

My only frame of reference is light retractables I've flown. If I left the gear up on approach in my Bonanza, speed control on final would be obviously different, wind noise would be different; the airplane would do everything but send me a telegram, "This ain't right."
Click to expand...

If they missed the wailing sirens that their gear wasn't down, I doubt they'd pick up on the more subtle clues like wind noise and flying characteristics.
 
Groundpounder said:
If they missed the wailing sirens that their gear wasn't down, I doubt they'd pick up on the more subtle clues like wind noise and flying characteristics.
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt the concept of “stabilized approach” is used there....o_O
 
Larry in TN said:
Of course. You won't be able to slow down. You'll be high and fast and unable to fix it. You'll also get the audible gear warning when flaps are extended to a landing flap setting.


I only heard it on the single transmission. You'll need to find an Airbus pilot to give you the specifics.
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ECAM warnings, master caution warnings, chimes, audio alerts.......

Yea, I could see how they would miss that...,,, o_O :eek:
 
Pilawt said:
Aside from the warning lights, chimes, etc., are there handling and/or sensory cues that would tell an A320 crew that the gear is not down?

My only frame of reference is light retractables I've flown. If I left the gear up on approach in my Bonanza, speed control on final would be obviously different, wind noise would be different; the airplane would do everything but send me a telegram, "This ain't right."
Click to expand...
Yes there are but if they were using the auto thrust system and were lazy enough not to have the engine gauges in their scan they probably didn’t notice. With the auto thrust on the thrust levers do not move.
 
Rein Hart said:
:eek:


What type of training is going on at that airline?
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Welcome to the third world airline industry. Standards are whatever the host country deem for their civil aviation authority. More often than not the power of bribery goes a long way.

Many of their ATP level pilots would not qualify for a private license in the west.
 
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