Pains of Selling an Airplane

gitmo234

gitmo234

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gitmo234
I'm in the process of selling mine... I hear most experiences are the same and it is painful. I get no less than 3 or 4 voicemails a day. Half of which are brokers or advertisers, the other half are usually people who just want to talk about the airplane and get historical information instead of flying. I almost think they just want to stroke their ego or something.

I seem to get a lot of conversations that end with "I have one just like that! talk to you later". Stuff like that.

I had someone fly in from states away today and start complaining because the paint wasn't in perfect condition and there were a couple minor issues similar to it.

anyone have any similar stories?
 
I've bought and sold 7 planes in 20 years (guess I'm never satisfied). If I decide to sell my current plane, I'm using a broker due to the things you are experiencing...not to mention the low ballers and other time wasters.
 
I actually just got off the phone with the broker i bought it from. Seems like it'd be so easy and with the offers im getting from tire kickers, i'd still come out on top after comission
 
Empathize with your frustration. I get similar tire kickers wanting to purchase parts to repair a fender bender who complain that the fender and door I have that will fit their car and is blue isn't the exact color of blue.

For me, if I was serious about purchasing your straight tail (and I likely would if I could afford sole ownership), things like minor issues and paint can be negotiated.

Have you considered executing a buy/sell agreement before the prospective buyer heads your direction? AOPA has a good template that's a starting point for such a document.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Empathize with your frustration. I get similar tire kickers wanting to purchase parts to repair a fender bender who complain that the fender and door I have that will fit their car and is blue isn't the exact color of blue.

For me, if I was serious about purchasing your straight tail (and I likely would if I could afford sole ownership), things like minor issues and paint can be negotiated.

Have you considered executing a buy/sell agreement before the prospective buyer heads your direction? AOPA has a good template that's a starting point for such a document.
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I'll check on that agreement, but im seriously considering just handing it over to a broker. Issue with today is I'd defy anyone to find a 1956 airplane without any minor issues of some type. Yesterday I (no kidding) got a voicemail that was the longest I've ever received and it was just a guy talking about flying an airplane of the same kind. He ended it with "anyway, looks good. someone will be lucky to have it"
 
I have traded all my previous airplane ,to avoid the hassles of selling. If I was to sell ,I would use a reputable broker,let them handle the tire kickers.
 
Personally, when looking for airplanes, I avoid those being sold by brokers. Most of them are a pain in the ass, unresponsive and rarely know much about the airplane. Sure, there are some exceptions, but the bad ones have poisoned the well. While letting a broker handle it might be "easy," it also might not lead to a quick sale.
 
And hence why when I sold my aircraft, I advertised it on Barnstormers without a phone number. Email only, so I can choose to respond and not waste my time with yackers. If be prepared to respond with electronic copies of your logbook, spec sheet, pictures, etc.

Go over to Beechtalk.com to see some good ads.
 
Am I the only one who finds this discussion ironic after reading the countless threads about how to buy an airplane? I hate to say it, but you'll probably find that a lot of the lowball offers and people expecting perfect paint, interior, nice radios, etc. for the cheapest price are taking their cues from threads like we see here. Fact of the matter is, we're dealing with 50 or 60 year old cheap airplanes which means it won't be perfect and it might have damage history, missing paperwork, and deferred maintenance.

Having bought and sold a few airplanes now I have come to the conclusion that most buyers and sellers are equally as delusional. Sellers often overstate the condition to get people to come and look at the plane. Buyers often seem to only be able to afford about 50% of the asking price for a specific plane and they think you're going to give it away.

The last airplane I sold I listed at wholesale price and didn't budge. It was worth what I was asking. Even with the low asking price I only had two real prospective buyers, despite my phone ringing all day long. I ended up selling it to a guy 3 states away, sight unseen, pending a quick inspection once I showed up at his airport with the plane. The plane was gone in less than two weeks this way.
 
mondtster said:
...The last airplane I sold I listed at wholesale price and didn't budge. It was worth what I was asking. Even with the low asking price I only had two real prospective buyers, despite my phone ringing all day long. I ended up selling it to a guy 3 states away, sight unseen, pending a quick inspection once I showed up at his airport with the plane. The plane was gone in less than two weeks this way.
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I think this guy made me an offer too on my last plane for sale...sounds familiar...east coast guy?
 
I traded mine to escape the hassles of selling. Why I call it "The Lucky Strike".
 
Luckily, I sold my old Cessna local without any advertising - just word of mouth. And I sold it at a very attractive price. The buyer got a helluva deal. I likely could've gotten more by going through the hassle of advertising and tire-kickers, etc., but it just wasn't worth it to scratch and claw for every dime I could get. My plane is sold, I'm happy, and the buyer is happy.
 
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mondtster said:
Fact of the matter is, we're dealing with 50 or 60 year old cheap airplanes which means it won't be perfect and it might have damage history, missing paperwork, and deferred maintenance.
QUOTE]

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Everyone seems to forget that.

Some of these things aint too far from a salvage yard either, if people were really honest with themselves about it.
 
Rcmutz said:
And hence why when I sold my aircraft, I advertised it on Barnstormers without a phone number. Email only, so I can choose to respond and not waste my time with yackers. If be prepared to respond with electronic copies of your logbook, spec sheet, pictures, etc.
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I did exactly the same thing. Only the serious ones actually bothered to inquire. Listing a phone number seemed counter-productive to me because any bored yahoo can call and waste everybody's time.
Then when real buyers did email me, I too sent them lots of pictures and sometimes even scans of the log books.

I had one crazy fella, though, waste his time by sending me an email that by not listing a phone number, I lost his interest and that he won't be dealing with me. When I politely replied that I would be happy to talk to him and that I was merely protecting my privacy, he got on a high horse and didn't come down until a few pages later. Emails deleted and I eventually found a normal buyer. I don't care to deal with crazies. Even if they have money.

Hang in there, Gitmo, the right buyer will eventually come along. Selling an airplane is not an instant process so have patience and wait for the right guy (or gal) who will enjoy your airplane and give it a good home. Good luck!
 
Some people don't know how to sell anything. Just look at all the terrible pictures online. Many of them don't really have a clue about listing equipment, times, etc.

"$12000 annual in 2005"...

Yeah, I want to see records if really interested in buying it. Also want to see pictures inside some inspection covers prior to spending hours on the road coming to look at, potentially wasting a whole weekend.

The digital age is here. Send me something to look at. Lots of 40+ year old airplanes out there I don't want to have anything to do with.
 
gitmo234 said:
the other half are usually people who just want to talk about the airplane and get historical information instead of flying. I almost think they just want to stroke their ego or something.
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The guy who is buying my Baron has been running into that a lot while trying to sell his Twin Comanche. He was describing how people would see the ad on Barnstormers and call up and just want to take airplanes. No serious interest.

And then come the tire-kickers who expect a 60 year old airplane to be as perfectly restored as my Waco.....but at the price of a high time Cessna 150.
 
Make sure you have great pictures, show the good the bad and the ugly, if the paint on the elevator is weak, show it. The more detailed pictures you have the less you have to discuss and negotiate. Many people think that all airplanes are priced too high and regardless of the asking price want to cut it 20-30%, just like they said on POA!! :) One thing is figure out what it's worth, not what you paid for it or have in it, figure out the market price the best you can. We all watch ads on airplanes similar to ours, or at least I do, it doesn't take a genius to see that one has been listed for 2 years and isn't selling! Or notice that the one that popped up last week is gone. Be honest with yourself, if the ones selling have great autopilots and you have none, then adjust your price accordingly. :)
Having spend 31 years in the car business, tire kickers are part of the game, but make sure you are prepared for the guy that is serious with all the information he needs and he'll buy it. :)
 
I am currently advertising our RV-9A for sale. I have had many tire kickers. Some call after I am asleep wake me up and ask all sorts of questions only to never hear from them again.

I had 1 lady from across the country who told me to send her a contract and she wanted to buy it. She intended to fly it home. Her flight experience was 120 hours total time. She then went on to say she wanted to take her private pilot checkride in the plane. In under 24 hours she changed her mind.

I had 1 guy come and fly the plane with me. He thanked me for describing the plane accurately saying it was exactly as described and he had seen many others which were nothing like they had been described.

Digitized logs and pics uploaded to a location where a link may be accessed by interested parties is easy to do these days.
 
tawood said:
I think this guy made me an offer too on my last plane for sale...sounds familiar...east coast guy?
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Nope, my guy was a student pilot in Oklahoma. He bought the plane and finished his training in it. It looks like it has changed hands again now, but remains at the same airport. My guess is that the guy who bought it from me ran into some medical issues because he was on a special issuance at the time he bought the plane.
 
bnt83 said:
Some people don't know how to sell anything. Just look at all the terrible pictures online. Many of them don't really have a clue about listing equipment, times, etc.

"$12000 annual in 2005"...

Yeah, I want to see records if really interested in buying it. Also want to see pictures inside some inspection covers prior to spending hours on the road coming to look at, potentially wasting a whole weekend.

The digital age is here. Send me something to look at. Lots of 40+ year old airplanes out there I don't want to have anything to do with.
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This is the critical point. Many people either don't know how to sell something, or don't care to put in the effort. As a prospective buyer, I don't want to "call for price," nor do I want to "contact for pictures." I want an ad with at least a decent number of clear, representative pictures of the exterior, panel and interior taken with something other than a potato. I'd also like PDFs or images of at least the last few years of log entries (I don't care about entries from 1975, but I do want to see the last few annuals and the engine overhaul). Yes, these things take some effort on the seller side, but you're selling a $50k+ asset, it's going to take a LITTLE work. And don't think just any broker is going to do that work for you. In my experience, many brokers are less responsive than owners.
 
I'm pretty up front with it when someone contacts me. I tell them what could be better, what i would like to do to it if I was keeping it, and what's good about it.

I spoked with the broker again, I'm probably flying it up there on thursday. He said he could easily re-list it at the same price it was listed for when I bought it from him. I've done a few upgrades and otherwise nothing has changed, and that when I made my offer on it, it had been listed for 3 days and his inbox was full so I could likely (but not guaranteed) see a quicker turn around.

Quote of the day "This thing says they found a bird nest in it, in the year 1967, then they removed it. That's not good". I'm sure people farted in it back then too.
 
I'm in the market- Ready to pull the trigger on something of 60s-80s vintage..The disparity in asking price vs. commensurate equipment, overall condition, engine/prop times, interior/exterior, logs etc. is often startling. However, the fairly priced and well equipped models seem to move rather quickly because they are at market equilibrium.

I understand this is an emotional thing for many, but these things are Assets (in theory;)) and they have a price at which they trade. That price is determined by supply and demand with some comps thrown in to keep the bankers and insurers happy. Nothing more, nothing less, and we all know that macro demand is down and likely to stay that way (except in certain model types).

It seems like many sellers continuously believe that their run out hulks with 1800SMOH "with great compressions" and narco/loran panels with brown velour interior, crackling paint, leaky bladders and missing logs are "A great value" or "can't miss opportunities". It's kind of comical. And these things sit, and sit, and sit...I have seen some ads on Controller for one year+ with no price movement...

By the way, this dynamic is not limited to private sales, either. My employer has 900mm of aircraft on our books and we trade assets all the time.

Some of these offerings/potential acquisitions are comical at best, and I've seen quite a few. When folks are done farting around, assets trade...

If you have a well priced, mid time, clean, well equipped (HSI, coupled AP and IFR gps) 160KT single or light twin with complete logs, a solid maintenance history, will carry 3 pax & bags and are looking for a no BS transaction, I'm easy to find and not farting around...pm me.

Rick
 
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Just a few random thoughts having looked at a lot of planes for sale.

I love when people say "extensive annual" what does that even mean? There was a lot of deferred maintenance?
I wouldn't ever call for price
Personally I prefer email until I get the major disqualifier questions out of the way
Lot's of pictures will save me from calling or emailing
Also if your selling a Champ, Chief, Cub or similar plane where it matters list the useful load
Tell me when the overhaul was done and by who
If a fabric plane tell me when the fabric was done and by who
Tell me how many hours on the engine not how many left
Be honest with me any yourself
Unless the plane is priced extremely fair I would figure a little wiggle room on price people like to feel like they are getting a deal typically I would expect 5-10%
 
Having just bought my first plane, I saw plenty of crazy antics from sellers, too.

About 70% of them seemed honest and interested in actually selling the plane. About 30% of them were just bizarre.

One guy in the northeast was annoyed that I was even asking questions about his Archer, like he wanted me to send him a check right then and there. He acted like he was doing me a favor just by putting his plane on the market. Strange, strange stuff.

Another seller said, "I won't let [nationally known, well-respected expert mechanic in this make of aircraft] touch my plane. He's too picky."

I just found it odd that I was sitting with tens of thousands in cash ready to spend on a plane, and a good portion of the sellers killed any chance of a deal before I'd even seen their plane in person. I can only assume that either a lot of airplane owners are weirdos or they don't really want to sell — and maybe both! :)

That said, I have no doubt it's even worse dealing with aircraft buyers.
 
gitmo234 said:
I'll check on that agreement, but im seriously considering just handing it over to a broker. Issue with today is I'd defy anyone to find a 1956 airplane without any minor issues of some type. Yesterday I (no kidding) got a voicemail that was the longest I've ever received and it was just a guy talking about flying an airplane of the same kind. He ended it with "anyway, looks good. someone will be lucky to have it"
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Your experience sounds awfully familiar. :)

Suggestion: When you get a phone or email start by "qualifying the buyer". Instead of concentrating on a one way discussion or Q&A of what you are selling, weave into the conversation a series of prepared questions - are they a pilot (yes, you would be surprised at how many are wanna-be pilots), how much do they fly, what type of flying, that sort of thing - every good salesperson qualifies the buyer early and if they don't make it on the check-off as a serious potential buyer, stop wasting your time on them.

And if they want a "perfect" airplane, tell them you would be asking a "perfect" price for it.

Airplane brokers seem to be on par with used car salesmen, and only slightly above Presidential candidates in public opinion. But as you note, the good ones (and only the good ones) can actually save you time and aggravation - which can be devoted to other more enjoyable life pursuits.

This situation works in reverse, if it's any consolation. Can't tell you how many planes I spent time on as a potential purchaser only to find the guy (always a guy, women seem more decisive) didn't really want to sell it after all, and makes that known by being unusually uncooperative. Usually put it up for sale reluctantly, because the spousal unit insisted it be sold as it was no longer being flown much. So I now also "qualify the seller" early on.
 
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gitmo234 said:
I'm pretty up front with it when someone contacts me. I tell them what could be better, what i would like to do to it if I was keeping it, and what's good about it.

...
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Just a gentle selling suggestion..don't spend time telling them what you would do if you were keeping the airplane (you aren't). Better to try to turn that around and get them to describe what THEY would want to do with it if they owned the airplane.
 
Decades ago a Swift was parked at Youngstown - my Reserve Wing had a squadron there, and we'd pass through pretty regularly. . .we watched the Swift rot into the ramp over a few years. I heard a couple of the Reserve pilots there looked into buying it, but the owner (maybe an estate) had a wildly exaggertaed idea of its value, so it sat. I thought it was an exception way back then, but niw I've seen the scenario repeated many times. . .
 
Sundancer said:
Decades ago a Swift was parked at Youngstown - my Reserve Wing had a squadron there, and we'd pass through pretty regularly. . .we watched the Swift rot into the ramp over a few years. I heard a couple of the Reserve pilots there looked into buying it, but the owner (maybe an estate) had a wildly exaggertaed idea of its value, so it sat. I thought it was an exception way back then, but niw I've seen the scenario repeated many times. . .
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I'm always curious about the rotting airplanes I see at an airfield. Mine has a few. One appears to be concealed by being parked tightly between two shipping containers, but its so rotted, even if the airplane repo man was after it, it'd be worthless
 
If you think the plane market is nuts, consider buying a used boat to cure yourself from that idea.

Now you know what brokers get paid for.
 
weilke said:
If you think the plane market is nuts, consider buying a used boat to cure yourself from that idea.

Now you know what brokers get paid for.
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Funny you should say that. Part of the deal I had with my in-laws is that they buy the beach house (and they are in the process of that now), and I buy the airplane to fly us all down there. Now they're considering a boat as well.
 
i always use a broker well worth the $ i do not like people
 
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gitmo234 said:
I'm always curious about the rotting airplanes I see at an airfield. Mine has a few. One appears to be concealed by being parked tightly between two shipping containers, but its so rotted, even if the airplane repo man was after it, it'd be worthless
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I wonder sometimes if the airplane belongs to an older guy, no longer flying, but thinking he will again, someday; doesn't want to sell (and/or doesn't need to). . .the airplane sits for a long time, until he passes. And the estate doesn't have a clear or realistic idea of the value. But there seem to be so many airplanes like that. . .
 
For cars and planes... I don't sell myself anymore. Way too much hassle. I will rather take a lesser amount and trade in. The tire kickers and low ballers are just too annoying, aggravating and time consuming.
 
To throw my 2 cents in. I am a semi serious buyer. I do not have pain or a burning need to buy, so I can afford to take my time and be somewhat picky. Add into the equation is I go between something basic to learn how to be an owner to a complex "last plane forever", I can't seem to settle on a model (this week its a 182 with LR tanks and an AP, next week it could be a 210 with a nice panel) . Having said that-

I wont "call for price or pictures" My time is valuable as is probably the sellers. Take 20 minutes to upload a fair amount of pictures and put a price.
3 pictures of the plane from 20 feet and 2 grainy panel pictures wont cut it. Bytes are cheap. We all want to see panel porn. indulge us.
Recent logs in digital form is very nice. I understand some people dont want to, but it really knocks down the tire kickers in my opinion.
If the plane has changes from a stock model, useful and speed/fuel flow is nice to know. Even stock planes can vary. What do you see when you fly is a nice to know information.
Email is way easier and there is some record. Phone calls are not as fun to try to figure out a time to call. And, as stated above, I have had more sellers want to talk planes than the ones that are brief and to the point. Do I want to spend a Friday night talking for an hour when I just wanted to know when the bladders were replaced?

Since I havent been on the other side, I am sure there are things I do that are annoying. I just wanted to put another (useless) opinion from a buyer.
 
I bought my plane a year ago. I called on a 182 in extreme northern California only to find the buyer had gone to his winter home in San Diego and would not be back for several month. No deal of course.

I then found my Dakota for sale by a private party in Texas. He had listed pictures and a price. When I called, he offered additional pictures, logs and told me lots more details. We went back and forth a bit and I told him I was a cash buyer. He didn't move much on the price but it seemed pretty fair. I think we had a purchase agreement pending clear title, inspection and a pre-buy within 5 days. Within 2 weeks of first receiving the logs, I was on a plane to Texas to fly it home.

I have never "called for a price"
 
My experience is that if......if the airplane looks decent, is well maintained, mid time engine, has logs that are believable, and has been hangared, it's not hard to sell it yourself, usually to someone who understands the less you pay originally , the more you pay later.
 
weilke said:
If you think the plane market is nuts, consider buying a used boat to cure yourself from that idea.

Now you know what brokers get paid for.
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Just sold my Bayliner 3270 last weekend. I can't even to begin to describe the similarities.

Three interested offers at a very attractive price and one buyer called to chew me out because his (lowest offer) was a fair price and I was being impatient by not waiting for him to get back from Tahoe.

Frankly, I didn't want to fly back up (2.5 hrs) to have him potentially flake on the sea trial-- I took the cash from another guy instead



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Heck even selling furniture on craigslist is ridiculous. Between the thousands of people asking "is it still available" to inconsiderate people expecting you to stay home your entire day to accommodate when they can pick it up after they're late.
 
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