PA28 down near Gainesville, FL

[Hengelo]

Agreed, but as is well documented, various pressures to fly can easily overwhelm better judgment. Young men are not inherently stupid or reckless, but on average they are less mature. Maturity should in theory better prepare us to resist those pressures. I can picture this young man getting excited about his newly purchased airplane, to the p

Neuroscience might beg to differ, but the issue isn't "stupidity" it's different response profiles to reward and risk stiumulus. Significant development continues well into the 20's.

What neuroscience tells us about the teenage brain

New research now turns an old assumption on its head, as psychologists seek to optimize social contexts and environments for developing minds.

www.apa.org

At risk of being risky: The relationship between "brain age" under emotional states and risk preference - PubMed

Developmental differences regarding decision making are often reported in the absence of emotional stimuli and without context, failing to explain why some individuals are more likely to have a greater inclination toward risk. The current study (N=212; 10-25y) examined the influence of emotional...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Again, this doesn't account for the middle aged friend of mine who left a smoking hole in the ground on a VRF day, but since we're solving all the worlds problems here, it would probably be wise to acknowledge that although the mistakes of 20 years olds might end the same way as those of 50 year olds, but the mental mechanisms may be different.

Yeah, "bad ADM" is the same for both - I'm talking about once you look into the why.

 

[ahmad]

ok I don't want to end up being talked about on here some day so I'll ask while alive. I got my instrument rating in a 172 with a panel identical to this. I fly it ifr some days but I'm never in imc conditions for more than a few minutes to get on top. no auto pilot but I feel confident and proficient (buy am I being naive?) and don't fly in bad weather.

neither my cfi nor the dpe have told me I shouldn't fly ifr or imc in this simple panel aircraft. I am at 425 hrs and would like to keep it going up till I make it in the commercial world.

I am all ears from the experienced crowd.

 

[SEB]

ok I don't want to end up being talked about on here some day so I'll ask while alive. I got my instrument rating in a 172 with a panel identical to this. I fly it ifr some days but I'm never in imc conditions for more than a few minutes to get on top. no auto pilot but I feel confident and proficient (buy am I being naive?) and don't fly in bad weather.

neither my cfi nor the dpe have told me I shouldn't fly ifr or imc in this simple panel aircraft. I am at 425 hrs and would like to keep it going up till I make it in the commercial world.

I am all ears from the experienced crowd.








View attachment 122557

This panel looks very much like the 172 my son has used to get most of his certifications, inlcluding his IFR (now working on his CFII). I wasn't aware it was deficient. It's used for flight instruction by the school he flies out of. What is lacking purportedly lacking here?

 

[tobnpr]

Might **** off the mods but I'm going to cross-post this link, where it was moved to the "media" section like it's some dude with a go-pro filming his flight and isn't seen by anyone.

This thread is about ADM, and this is as relevant as it gets.

Three Strikes...

Mike Patey gets real.

pilotsofamerica.com

 

[RyanShort1]

I know I'll get pilloried for saying this out loud, but if he had scud run "properly", he would have survived. Florida is pool table flat and mostly rural. The highest elevation in Florida, Sugarloaf mountain, is 312' MSL. Any tower over a few hundred feet is mapped on GPS, and all the major apps have obstacle warnings. Rather than holding altitude and entering IMC, he should have stayed below the clouds and run the slalom at 500 AGL until he found somewhere to land. I have done just that IN FORMATION with a Navy F-18 pilot flying a Pitts S-2E on my wing. TBH it was a relatively minor event. We accidentally landed at an EAA pancake breakfast and had a good meal!

We teach the 180 turn as the correct response to IMC entry. But I wonder if a safer course for a VFR pilot in a marginally equipped aircraft would be to cut power and hands off glide til you break out. Declare an emergency and get observations from ATC on nearby ceilings to determine if you will have enough room. In conditions like last week, there is no guarrantee that the VMC behind you will still be VMC when you get there.

I don't think you should be pilloried for saying that. Scud running isn't ideal, but might indeed be a better option *in **some** places.* Of course in hilly or mountainous terrain, or without obstacle data, that isn't really a good option.

 

[Lawson_Stone]

I’m not sure you can. Safety culture is… er… a culture. It’s peer pressure, and an expectation of behaviour as much as it is rules.

“Freedoms” as imagined in the USA are about the solitary person’s ability to write their own rules, live on their own “edge” and look to no one else as a compass.

This dichotomy seems to be at the root of GA in the USA: Amazing, and sometimes Byzantine federal regulations, as well as “I don’t want adsb in my kit plane” and “common frequencies are for mooing” or whatever other juvenile nonese is in vogue.

I don't know which USA and its view of freedom you're talking about. Our founding documents clearly locate individual freedom in the context of being a responsible citizen who puts country, community, and family above personal autonomy. Maybe today ignorant people think "writing your own rules" is what freedom is, but that is not the classical American notion of freedom. My freedom ends at the point where your freedom starts. All our freedoms are negotiated and limited by the liberties of others. The separation of an individual from his obligation to others, even "others" he has not met, is exactly what "forming a more perfect union" was and is all about.

 

[donjohnston]

ok I don't want to end up being talked about on here some day so I'll ask while alive. I got my instrument rating in a 172 with a panel identical to this. I fly it ifr some days but I'm never in imc conditions for more than a few minutes to get on top. no auto pilot but I feel confident and proficient (buy am I being naive?) and don't fly in bad weather.

neither my cfi nor the dpe have told me I shouldn't fly ifr or imc in this simple panel aircraft. I am at 425 hrs and would like to keep it going up till I make it in the commercial world.

I am all ears from the experienced crowd.

That's pretty much the same panel my 182RG had (although I did have a 400B A/P). I flew IMC, approaches, and a number of LIFR approaches with no problems. I don't know if I would want to do long trips in IMC without an A/P though. That would get old pretty fast.

 

[Pinecone]

Did some of you actually look at the PA-28 panel?????

The AI is off to the right. The DG is to the left of the AI, in the middle of the panel, and a drum type. Altimeter is under the airspeed to the left. The VSI is under the DG.

THIS not the same as the 172 panel pictured.

The PA-28 had what is called a Shotgun pattern, as the instruments are placed like they were shot from a shotgun and randomly hit the panel.

The 172 panel is a standard 6 pack panel. AI in the middle top with DG under. Altimeter to the right on the top row with VSI under. Airspeed to the left of the AI with T&B under. Like virtually every non-glass GA from the late 60s on.

The layout was standardized to make it easier to fly IFR and so that pilots new to a plane do not have to figure out where the instruments are.

 

[Piperonca]

That ‘drum’ DG would be hard for a novice to interpret in a panic. Especially if it’s spinning like a lathe.

 

[Hengelo]

I don't know which USA and its view of freedom you're talking about. Our founding documents clearly locate individual freedom in the context of being a responsible citizen who puts country, community, and family above personal autonomy. Maybe today ignorant people think "writing your own rules" is what freedom is, but that is not the classical American notion of freedom. My freedom ends at the point where your freedom starts. All our freedoms are negotiated and limited by the liberties of others. The separation of an individual from his obligation to others, even "others" he has not met, is exactly what "forming a more perfect union" was and is all about.

Lawson I suspect you and I agree violently on this topic. I'm talking about modern interpretations. It's hard to deny the strong libertarian streak in American GA, regardless of one's opinion about how justified or not it is.

I was just pointing out the stark contrast (to my eyes) between highly disciplined military / 121 operations and the people flying GA with equipment/training/proficiency/legality lapses that would turn your hair white.

 

[Hengelo]

I don't think you should be pilloried for saying that. Scud running isn't ideal, but might indeed be a better option *in **some** places.* Of course in hilly or mountainous terrain, or without obstacle data, that isn't really a good option.

Do we need a 4th item in the priority list Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Follow the Rules?
If your life is on the line, I can't see anyone complaining about scud running. I think the objections come when that decision is made before takeoff, or with a clear sky behind you.

 

[Lawson_Stone]

Lawson I suspect you and I agree violently on this topic. I'm talking about modern interpretations. It's hard to deny the strong libertarian streak in American GA, regardless of one's opinion about how justified or not it is.

I was just pointing out the stark contrast (to my eyes) between highly disciplined military / 121 operations and the people flying GA with equipment/training/proficiency/legality lapses that would turn your hair white.

Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like we're on the same page.

 

[MFE]

Neuroscience might beg to differ, but the issue isn't "stupidity" it's different response profiles to reward and risk stiumulus. Significant development continues well into the 20's.

Literally came here to post this. Almost everybody at age 21 is nowhere near capable of the kind of better judgment they acquire within just a few years.

 

[RudyP]

I am not a fan of landing on roads for a number of reasons: road signs, power lines, traffic, etc. Here in central Wisconsin, there are many, many farms with better places to land. Thirty miles north of here? Not much besides trees and water. Most of the roads are very narrow.

A few years ago, a local pilot put his Cessna 172 down on a county highway. I asked him if he was concerned about power lines. His answer: "I work for the power company... I know where they are."

A good friend of mine was in a back seat of a Cirrus SR22 that had a total powerplant failure out over Lake Superior in winter. They had barely enough altitude to glide back to shore and put it down on a road without a scratch. It was only after safely exciting and letting the adrenaline wear off that they noticed they had somehow flown under a set of powerlines crossing their landing road and barely squeezed under it and over a car...

 

[Gary Ward]

A good friend of mine was in a back seat of a Cirrus SR22 that had a total powerplant failure out over Lake Superior in winter. They had barely enough altitude to glide back to shore and put it down on a road without a scratch. It was only after safely exciting and letting the adrenaline wear off that they noticed they had somehow flown under a set of powerlines crossing their landing road and barely squeezed under it and over a car...

Wow.

 

[edessa]

Yep, VORs, a six-pack, and a LORAN, in the well-equipped Tomahawk!

That what we still have in our Cherokee. LORAN still works.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

I suppose the Loran still works, but I think there are no Loran stations for it to receive.

 

[Mooney Fan]

Young man who died alone in plane crash near Gainesville dreamed of becoming commercial pilot

The pilot who died alone in a small plane crash earlier this week near Gainesville – after pleading for help in bad weather from an air traffic controller…

www.wuft.org

The pilot who died alone in a small plane crashearlier this week near Gainesville – after pleading for help in bad weather from an air traffic controller over his radio and expressing his love for his parents – dreamed of becoming a commercial pilot, his family says.

Valentine received his pilot’s license in May 2021, according to FAA records..


Newish pilot in a new airplane (for the pilot)

How are we training our pilots these days? ADM skills completely lacking. Weather was certainly not appropriate for a VFR flight, MVFR at best

Indeed. I remember some weather briefings by phone where he would say "VFR flight not recommended". I think there's value there.

 

[FlightmechH3]

I have a high respect for inclement weather. Flew into Hurricane Andrew and in Alaskan storms (75kt sustained up to 100+ gusting). Of course, I flew with helo pilots who did CSAR in Vietnam, but took their jobs extremely seriously.

I think some pilots should be shown photos of crash victims on a monthly basis to drill it into their thick skulls (the ones who have a stupid chromosome).

 

[Sudburian]

As a new pilot myself I’ve now flown with more than one experienced pilot, CFIs included, who don’t really exercise gold standard ADM or even pre-plan cross country trips. So I really question what kind of mentorship this fellow new pilot was getting, and why it is he felt so comfortable taking off in such marginal conditions.

Given his horrifying flight track, I suspect that it was ATC and the airline pilots on guard who were barely keeping him alive for almost half an hour with their attempt to verbally coach him. The typical spatial disorientation track I’ve seen ends much quicker. Per reports he was being coached on keeping wings level and following his magnetic compass, which was almost working. But he was in a state of panic and would repeatedly say that “all” of his instruments weren’t working—presumably because he was sure he was flying in one direction while his instruments were saying the exact opposite. The instruments probably were working.

It’s a haunting story for newbies like me. Yes, I’m working on instrument training now as was always the plan.

 

[exncsurfer]

ok I don't want to end up being talked about on here some day so I'll ask while alive. I got my instrument rating in a 172 with a panel identical to this. I fly it ifr some days but I'm never in imc conditions for more than a few minutes to get on top. no auto pilot but I feel confident and proficient (buy am I being naive?) and don't fly in bad weather.

neither my cfi nor the dpe have told me I shouldn't fly ifr or imc in this simple panel aircraft. I am at 425 hrs and would like to keep it going up till I make it in the commercial world.

I am all ears from the experienced crowd.








View attachment 122557

From the picture posted earlier, on page 1 of this thread, The turn coordinator wasn't the most common type (with the airplane wing depiction), the DG wasn't most the common type(with the airplane top down depiction), the compass motion may have been opposite to what the pilot was accustomed to. It didn't have this 'stuff':


On this type of compass it may appear to someone not used to it that 150 is 'right' of South, which we all know isn't correct:



vs

 

[Piperonca]

In my opinion the ability to hold a heading is the most important thing in instrument flight. That ancient drum-type DG the young man was trying to follow was a major contributing factor to loss of control. Thankfully the majority of general aviation aircraft have moved on from those, and nobody should fly IFR with one.

 

[SFDukie]

Blood suckers are circling the corpse. Metaphorically, of course.

 

[Flying Keys]

Blood suckers are circling the corpse. Metaphorically, of course.

Oh, so a tower controller is responsible for alerting to IFR conditions much later in the route, where the problem actually occurred? They need to get a grip. What a waste of resources.

 

[donjohnston]

For those who don't want to read screenshots.

Tragic Piper PA-28-180 Cherokee Private Plane Crash Kills Young Pilot near Micanopy, Florida

A 21-year-old pilot who required help from air traffic control (ATC) to navigate the skies under visual flight rules (VFR) was killed when his Piper 180 Cherokee crashed.

www.kreindler.com

 

[TrueCourse]

The fact these lawyers were or still are pilots is overshadowed by the fact they are lawyers. Law firm revenue grab.

I don’t ever recall teaching anyone or being taught that a pilot can or should depend on ATC to keep them from making mistakes. If ATC makes an obvious error that jeopardizes safety I can understand some accountability, but departing in marginal VFR and continuing into deteriorating conditions is the pilot’s responsibility to avoid.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Every entity must be subject to some form of external accountability. In our legal system, the threat of civil suit plays a major role in forcing entities to proactively manage risk and avoid negligence. ATC is no exception. Based on the case history at the bottom of the website, these lawyers have significant expertise in that area. Everybody hates lawyers til you need one.

 

[ateamer]

Isn’t ATC’s job to separate IFR traffic from other IFRs, and everything else is gravy?

 

[Flying Keys]

Every entity must be subject to some form of external accountability. In our legal system, the threat of civil suit plays a major role in forcing entities to proactively manage risk and avoid negligence. ATC is no exception. Based on the case history at the bottom of the website, these lawyers have significant expertise in that area. Everybody hates lawyers til you need one.

Maybe I should rephrase: do you think it’s the responsibility of a control tower to advise of IFR conditions anywhere along an entire route of flight, or are they responsible only for their airspace? Is it a pilot’s responsibility to understand the difference? From what they communicated, it is a poor standing that, if somehow successful, could set a dangerous precedent.

Look at it another way: say the tower was made responsible for a weather advisory along an entire route. First, define route - is this a VFR flight into uncontrolled airspace, does it have a flight plan, is the pilot even required to stick to a route? Then, does the tower have the expertise, equipment, and time to interpret weather downstream?

There’s a reason your last sentence becomes true. And I’m someone who usually believes that, but in this case, the accountability should be with the person who ignored the marginal, at best, weather along the entire route.

 

[francisco collazos]

First, define route - is this a VFR flight into uncontrolled airspace, does it have a flight plan, is the pilot even required to stick to a route?

Yeah I don't think this guy was ifr rated nor did he file an IFR plan so how is does the responsibility fall on to ATC?

 

[Flying Keys]

Yeah I don't think this guy was ifr rated nor did he file an IFR plan so how is does the responsibility fall on to ATC?

My quick take is that local was talking about the field going from IFR to VFR in a few minutes (which it did), and the suit is trying to connect that verbiage to a conveyance of clearance or advice or situational awareness for the entire flight. Good luck with that.

 

[Bill]

Responsibility for this flight fell squarely on the shoulders of this young man. I am sorry to hear of his demise, he should have never launches into those conditions. That his family wants to sue nauseates me.

 

[SFDukie]

The fact these lawyers were or still are pilots is overshadowed by the fact they are lawyers. Law firm revenue grab.

I don’t ever recall teaching anyone or being taught that a pilot can or should depend on ATC to keep them from making mistakes. If ATC makes an obvious error that jeopardizes safety I can understand some accountability, but departing in marginal VFR and continuing into deteriorating conditions is the pilot’s responsibility to avoid.

The controller was telling the pilot to wait- that the field wasn’t currently vfr, but would be.
He prevented the pilot from committing a blatant violation off regulations.
He had no way to know pilot’s intentions. Nor are they the controller’s responsibility, once pilot departs.

 

[SFDukie]

Responsibility for this flight fell squarely on the shoulders of this young man. I am sorry to hear of his demise, he should have never launches into those conditions. That his family wants to sue nauseates me.

To be clear, the law firm’s website seems like an attempt to draw business. I haven’t seen any sign family has engaged lawyers- have you?

 

[SFDukie]

The lawyers have this part dangerously wrong.

 

[Ed Haywood]

To be clear, the law firm’s website seems like an attempt to draw business.

The firm is engaged in a similar case. Publicizing other examples helps strengthen their bargaining position in a settlement. They are just being good lawyers.

I haven’t seen any sign family has engaged lawyers- have you?

Exactly.

 

[Hang 4]

The firm is engaged in a similar case. Publicizing other examples helps strengthen their bargaining position in a settlement. They are just being good lawyers.

I don't share your opinion, they are being ambulance chasers and trying to drum up someone who can claim a loss based on this crash. There is a another lawyer who CNN has on speed dial whenever there is a crash. He points to some "cause" of the accident, which is not surprisingly a deep pocket. Good lawyers are a good thing to have, contingency based tort attorneys aren't one of them.

 

[donjohnston]

The lawyers have this part dangerously wrong.

So why did I get XM weather and ADSB in for weather when it was ATC's job all along to provide me with constant weather updates?

 

[Flying Keys]

The lawyers have this part dangerously wrong.

If this goes to trial, it will either be a drain on resources or it will be a drain on resources and set dangerous precedent.

 

[Dave Theisen]

If this goes to trial, it will either be a drain on resources or it will be a drain on resources and set dangerous precedent.

If it goes to trial, a jury of non-pilots will think “I can’t believe those Air Traffic Controllers didn’t stop that poor boy” because they have no idea how the system works.