PA-46 down outside Seligman, AZ

midcap said:
that's a good point....From the video I think he wasn't making it easy. Looks like he was adjusting the IMC level and also throwing some turbulence at them.

What's interesting is that you can see at every point where it's obvious they are screwed but they don't know it yet.
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Pretty sure once you entered his storm cell, each attempt to exit was just the equivalent of going through a door and finding yourself in the room you just left. But that was the point after all. :)
 
Tantalum said:
If a 206, Bonanza, Mooney, PA-46, and SR-22 all blast into the same cell will they all come apart?

Maybe Ron has some stats in his formidable database?
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I have an abbreviated list of Cirrus accidents and Bonanza 36 accidents, but don't recall any formation thunderstorm entries. :)

298 Cirrus accidents in my database (2001 to 2018), 6% were "Continued VFR into IFR Conditions". 3.7% are listed as disorientation. Doesn't address the coming-from-together issue, though. Took a brief look at the probable causes and didn't see any obvious cases of planes coming apart.

With the way my database is set up, the VFR/IFR cases and the Disorientation cases are completely separate, they aren't describing duplicate accidents.

305 in my Bonanza 36 database (1998 through 2016). 3.3% continued VFR into IFR, 3.9% disorientation. However, the Bonanza pilots are almost twice as experienced... 1450 hours median total time, versus 750 for the Cirri.

MalibuJim said:
In the late 1970s and early 1980s, the safety of the Beechcraft V35 Bonanza became a major issue. The problem was a pattern of in-flight airframe failures. Many of these disintegrations occurred in instrument meteorological conditions and with non-instrument-rated pilots at the controls. There was considerable speculation that the V35's V-tail design was partially to blame. It was learned that under certain high G loadings, the tail structure could twist and bend to an unusually large degree. Once again, a certification review was ordered, and once again, it was determined that the airplane met the rules. Eventually, a method of strengthening the V-tail's tail spar assemblies was developed by Beech, then offered to owners free of charge.
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Much the way I remember it. However, my statistical forebears found an interesting point: There were about as many conventional tailed Bonanzas in service, but a much lower percentage had come apart in flight. Either the doctors were all choosing V35s, or the straight-tail Bonanzas were much stronger than the certification standard.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Tantalum said:
Assuming there's a contingent of not-so-great pilots among all the manufacturers, is there any empirical data out there that suggests Pipers come apart more readily when pushed outside their envelope?

If a 206, Bonanza, Mooney, PA-46, and SR-22 all blast into the same cell will they all come apart?

Maybe Ron has some stats in his formidable database?
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All Pipers aren't created equally. ;)
 
I got a few Comanche flights recently, -250. Really enjoy that vintage Piper look and feel
 
wanttaja said:
ither the doctors were all choosing V35s, or the straight-tail Bonanzas were much stronger than the certification standard
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..and that's a compelling point. Do some types encourage different flying styles? The v-tails were the sexy ones so I guess it's no surprise that those might be flown harder than the conventional ones.


I've always been curious to take some old end-of-life junk planes rotting on ramps, and do some testing to destruction. What will that wing, tail, frame really take.. 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 Gs.. more?
 
midcap said:
To answer your question, I really doubt the V tail was as fault.
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Go back and read the old Aviation Consumer articles from 1983 or thereabouts. The statistic that seems conclusive is that the V-tail came apart much, much more often than the straight tail Bonanzas. Having seen bent tails and installed the fix, I can say that the V-tail after the B model, was more susceptible to failure than other high performance aircraft. Obviously, the pilot is always a factor, but the plane gave less margin for error. They are not the most stable instrument platforms either.
 
Kristin said:
Go back and read the old Aviation Consumer articles from 1983 or thereabouts. The statistic that seems conclusive is that the V-tail came apart much, much more often than the straight tail Bonanzas. Having seen bent tails and installed the fix, I can say that the V-tail after the B model, was more susceptible to failure than other high performance aircraft. Obviously, the pilot is always a factor, but the plane gave less margin for error. They are not the most stable instrument platforms either.
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sure is a pretty plane though.
 
sourdough44 said:
https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/105929/pdf


 Prelim.
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Sometimes, you know how the story ends from how it begins. Plane crashes are that way more often than not. Paragraph 1 of the preliminary report:
On September 13, 2022, about 1100 mountain standard time, a Piper PA46-310P airplane, N43605, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident near Seligman, Arizona. The student pilot and passenger were fatally injured. The airplane was operated by the student pilot as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 personal flight.
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The next couple paragraphs talk about heavy precipitation and moderate turbulence in the vicinity.
 
Yep, seems the attitude wasn’t up to normal requirements, likely more ways that one.
 
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