PA-44 down in Oregon

[DesertNomad]

Similarly, I recall doing a departure stall as a student in a C-150 with flaps inadvertently left down. Don't know if that was a factor, but the plane rolled rapidly left and began what I now call an "imminent" spin. What little training I had at that point kicked in and I got the yoke forward with right rudder and recovered. It scared me enough that as an instructor, I made sure my students were at least exposed to such an incipient spin by intentionally having them do a cross-control stall to the wing drop. Those who were willing got to see/do real spins when I owned my Citabrias. Regardless, I think its essential that all instructors do a bit more than the required spin training and get at least somewhat proficient in recovery techniques.

I do power-on stalls with full flaps with all my students. For my spin endorsement we did I think 5 in a 172 but I had done maybe 8 or so in a Decathlon.

 

[Spinka]

And yet the POH of every twin that I know of prohibit spins.

Yes, there are no US civilian twins I know of certified to do it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen inadvertently as it did with the King Air C90 2-3 years ago. There was/is a twin certified for intentional spins and aerobatics from the UK, the Phillips Speedtwin, but only two have been made. Looks fun though.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Did Bob Hoover ever spin the Aero Commander?

I saw his act perhaps a dozen times, zero spins. Though he'd certainly run it out of energy, he had control every second.
I've mentioned in the past that the FAA should mandate all engine-out landings be reported (whether in a multi or a single) so that stats on the safety can be updated to something reflecting the real world.

 

[DavidWhite]

Yes, there are no US civilian twins I know of certified to do it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen inadvertently as it did with the King Air C90 2-3 years ago. There was/is a twin certified for intentional spins and aerobatics from the UK, the Phillips Speedtwin, but only two have been made. Looks fun though.

The King Air C90 spin I am familiar with a few years ago ended up totaling the aircraft. It was a medevac plane and it wasn’t publicized at all at the time.

 

[Spinka]

The King Air C90 spin I am familiar with a few years ago ended up totaling the aircraft. It was a medevac plane and it wasn’t publicized at all at the time.

I was thinking about the one in South Africa on a jump run with skydivers.

Which reminds about more or less the same thing happening to a DC-3

 

[MauleSkinner]

my Flight Instructor at the time ignored the FAA guidance and we learned to do spins and spin recovery.

What FAA guidance did he ignore?

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

We did multiple spins in the T-37 in Air Force UPT, and that is a twin-engine airplane, but it's centerline thrust. I remember the recovery taking several thousand feet, but we did let it wind up a bit.

When I did my spin training in a Cessna 150 for the CFI rating, I told my instructor I was a bit nervous. She asked why, as she knew I had done spins before. "Well, we had ejection seats and parachutes," I explained. We did probably five or six spins in the 150, and it was very easy to recover on a designated heading.

A couple of years ago I wanted to review spin recoveries and did that with my boss in a Citabria. He did not like to have them develop, so we recovered after no more than one and a half turns. When I did his Flight Review in a C-172, same thing, he entered the spin and recovered after just one turn.

In 3,600+ hours of flight instruction, I have never had a student get us into a spin. I do recommend to all of my students that they go up in an aerobatic airplane with an instructor and learn what it looks like and how to recover.

 

[Morgan3820]

What FAA guidance did he ignore?

At the time I was told that the FAA did not have spin training in the private curriculum. I was also told that it used to be part of the training curriculum, but the FAA changed their mind after a number of incidences. My instructor at the time made it into kind of a big deal that he was doing something outside the recommended curriculum, but he felt it was important. This was mid 1970’s

 

[ateamer]

At the time I was told that the FAA did not have spin training in the private curriculum. I was also told that it used to be part of the training curriculum, but the FAA changed their mind after a number of incidences. My instructor at the time made it into kind of a big deal that he was doing something outside the recommended curriculum, but he felt it was important. This was mid 1970’s

The FAA removed the spin training requirement in 1949. They don’t have any guidance discouraging it, though.

 

[Morgan3820]

The FAA removed the spin training requirement in 1949. They don’t have any guidance discouraging it, though.

I was 17 at the time. If I thought I was going to have this discussion 47 years from then I would’ve paid better attention to the details.

 

[skyking3286]

My only comment is that pilot schools become pilot factories and it takes calendar time to develop reflexes, judgment, deep knowledge, understanding and muscle memory. . . and a first flight isn't a great time to do VMC instruction because of overloaded brain functioning in a new environment. But here is the NTSB report:


- NTSB issues the preliminary report into the fatal accident involving a Piper PA-44-180 Seminole, N8360K, that occurred on October 3, 2023, in Newberg, Oregon:

On October 3, 2023, about 1847 Pacific daylight time, a Piper PA-44-180, N8360K, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident near Newberg, Oregon. The flight instructor and the pilot receiving instruction were fatally injured; a pilot rated passenger was seriously injured. The airplane was operated as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 instructional flight.

A representative from the operator reported that, the pilot receiving instruction had recently obtained a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane single engine land rating and the accident flight was his first flight in his multi engine training program. They added that it is common for the first multi engine training flight to include slow flight, power off stalls, power on stalls, accelerated stalls, Minimum control airspeed (VMC) demonstration, emergency maneuvers, and steep turns.

Recorded Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) data provided by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) showed that the airplane departed Portland-Hillsboro Airport (HIO) at 0118:21 and ascended to 1,200 ft mean sea level (msl) before a left turn was initiated. The airplane continued on a western heading and ascended to an altitude of about 3,400 ft msl. At 0125:35 the airplane made a left turn to the south and ascended to an altitude of 5,300 ft msl. At 0130:46 the airplane made a left 180° turn to the north, then made a right turn to the northeast. The data showed the airplane continued on a northeast heading for about 3 minutes, before a series of 360° turns to the left and right were performed. At the completion of the turns, the airplane turned to the southwest. The data showed that at 0143:48, the airplane made a left turn to the southeast. While on a southeasterly heading, the airplane’s ground speed began to decrease from 133 kts. At 0145:56 the data showed the airplanes ground speed had decreased to 69 kts, at an altitude of 5750 ft msl, and began to descend on a southeasterly heading. The last recorded ADS-B target, at 0146:38, was located about 50 ft northwest of the accident site at an altitude of 525 ft, as seen in figure 1.

Multiple witnesses located near the accident site reported observing the airplane in level flight before it pitched downward and entered a near-vertical descent. The airplane continued in a nose-low, near-vertical descent until the airplane went out of visual range. Several witnesses described the airplane as “spinning” or “spiraling” during various phases of the vertical descent.

Examination of the accident site revealed that the airplane impacted a single-story residential structure, substantially damaging the fuselage and wings. The airplane came to rest in a near vertical attitude in the residential structure, on a heading of about 285° magnetic at an elevation of 249 ft msl. No visible ground scars were observed surrounding the wreckage. All major structural components of the airplane were located within about 10 ft of the main wreckage. The wreckage was recovered to a secure location for further examination.



Latitude, Longitude: 45.31399,-122.94885
- Report:
https://data.ntsb.gov/.../GenerateNewestReport/193187/pdf

 

[farmrjohn]

My only comment is that pilot schools become pilot factories and it takes calendar time to develop reflexes, judgment, deep knowledge, understanding and muscle memory. . . and a first flight isn't a great time to do VMC instruction because of overloaded brain functioning in a new environment. But here is the NTSB report:


- NTSB issues the preliminary report into the fatal accident involving a Piper PA-44-180 Seminole, N8360K, that occurred on October 3, 2023, in Newberg, Oregon:

A representative from the operator reported that, the pilot receiving instruction had recently obtained a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane single engine land rating and the accident flight was his first flight in his multi engine training program. They added that it is common for the first multi engine training flight to include slow flight, power off stalls, power on stalls, accelerated stalls, Minimum control airspeed (VMC) demonstration, emergency maneuvers, and steep turns.

I also wonder if the instructor was a "plow-back" having just "graduated" recently as well?