PA 28 Down in Kentucky, Fatalities

Seen the videos, poor student…. A very unfortunate situation.
 
Again, a tale in pictures. The flight down to BWG was completed about 2.5 hours prior to the return departure. Here's the zoomed-out radar mosaic from an hour before the departure of the return, ill-fated flight. Let's assume this is what they would have seen had they been looking at radar during a preflight brief at that time:

Overview 2118EDT.JPG

Here are several composite views of the actual flight path with the radar mosaic overlaid. NOTE: All radar images are from when they were disseminated, so the actual volume scan with the echoes noted might have taken place several minutes earlier.

In this first, at 2217EDT (0317Z) the airplane was about to take off from BWG (in the lower right corner):
Composite 2217EDT.JPG

2231EDT (0331Z), note the airplane's position in blue:
Composite 2231EDT.JPG

2239EDT (0339Z), the aircraft is still on the direct course:
Composite 2239EDT.JPG

2244EDT (0344Z), the aircraft has deviated from course, but has resumed a parallel track:
Composite 2244EDT.JPG

2249EDT (0349Z), the aircraft has begun a series of wild oscillations in altitude and groundspeed. plus many spirals. The accident occurs less than a minute later. Remember again that the radar data are likely delayed, so the most intense echoes of over 70dBz were likely closer than they appear here. These storms were zipping along at least 40kts.
Composite 2249EDT.JPG

The latest TAF prior to the flight issued for OWB:

KOWB 272334Z 2800/2824 VRB04KT P6SM SCT120
FM280300 VRB04KT P6SM VCSH BKN050
TEMPO 2806/2810 3SM TSRA BKN035CB
FM281000 22005KT P6SM BKN070
FM281800 26007KT P6SM SCT050

Here was a TAF issued while the aircraft was about halfway along the flight, just 17 minutes before the accident:

KOWB 280333Z 2804/2824 VRB15G30KT 3SM TSRA BKN035CB
FM280430 VRB04KT P6SM VCSH BKN050
FM281000 22005KT P6SM BKN070
FM281800 26007KT P6SM SCT050

And select METARS from BWG. OWB and a few other airports near the route:
KBWG 280253Z AUTO 17008KT 10SM CLR 23/18 A3001 RMK AO2 SLP158 T02330178 50007
KBWG 280353Z AUTO 18010KT 10SM CLR 23/17 A3001 RMK AO2 SLP157 T02280167

K2I0 280255Z AUTO 19004KT 10SM SCT100 21/19 A2996 RMK AO2 T02110190
K2I0 280315Z AUTO 20005KT 10SM SCT075 SCT100 BKN120 23/20 A2998 RMK AO2 T02280195
K2I0 280335Z AUTO 23005KT 10SM RA SCT075 OVC110 22/20 A3000 RMK AO2 P0001 T02160199
K2I0 280355Z AUTO 28008KT 250V310 10SM -RA SCT047 SCT075 OVC110 22/20 A3000 RMK AO2 P0004 T02160200

KM21 280255Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 20/18 A2998 RMK AO2 T01950183
KM21 280315Z AUTO 16003KT 10SM SCT120 21/19 A2998 RMK AO2 T02050185
KM21 280335Z AUTO 19006KT 10SM -RA SCT080 BKN110 22/19 A3000 RMK AO2 T02160189
KM21 280355Z AUTO 14003KT 10SM -RA SCT060 SCT075 OVC095 22/20 A3000 RMK AO2 T02170195

KOWB 280256Z 11004KT 10SM FEW055 23/18 A2997 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT ALQDS TSE51 SLP147 T02280183 55002
KOWB 280328Z AUTO 08004KT 10SM VCTS BKN065 23/18 A2997 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT ALQDS TSB22
KOWB 280352Z AUTO 18005G20KT 10SM TSRA FEW025 SCT042 BKN055 19/16 A3000 RMK AO2 WSHFT 0332 LTG DSNT ALQDS TSB22RAB43 P0006

Note that KBWG is an ASOS, and KOWB is an AWOS-3PT, but the other two are AWOS-3 only (no precip or thunder/lighting detectors)
 
Oh, I missed that the CFI was well aware of these storms. That was posted while I was writing the above.

Here’s the snap he sent:

IMG_1369.jpeg

Multiple opportunities to no-go or divert enroute. Gross.
 
Night IMC at 11pm? Dangerous, RIP.
 
Wow. I don't know what would be worse - if the student knew enough to think the flight was a bad idea and went anyway, or if the student wasn't advanced enough to know they should have cancelled the flight or diverted long before the crash and just trusted the CFI's judgment (of which he apparently had little to none). This is sad, because it was so easily preventable.
 
Flying Keys said:
Oh, I missed that the CFI was well aware of these storms. That was posted while I was writing the above.

Here’s the snap he sent:

View attachment 120985

Multiple opportunities to no-go or divert enroute. Gross.
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Gross, as in negligence. This CFI killed his student and himself.
 
As a student pilot myself, can anyone surmise ANY logical reason a CFI would have them make this flight given what they knew? This is so far outside of what I've learned thus far. I'd assume a student could reject a CFI's decision/directive to go in a case like this, correct?
 
BMan said:
As a student pilot myself, can anyone surmise ANY logical reason a CFI would have them make this flight given what they knew? This is so far outside of what I've learned thus far. I'd assume a student could reject a CFI's decision/directive to go in a case like this, correct?
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Yes, you can always reject the decision to go. In hindsight it would be a good decision to reject going. Losing the CFI who gets upset about it might be a secondary benefit too.

It's always easier to see clearly after the event. I would not have gone at night with radar like posted above: that's even being IFR current and with 2 sources of onboard weather like I have now.
 
BMan said:
As a student pilot myself, can anyone surmise ANY logical reason a CFI would have them make this flight given what they knew? This is so far outside of what I've learned thus far. I'd assume a student could reject a CFI's decision/directive to go in a case like this, correct?
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Well, in addition to the above post with the CFI's own image and words ("headed are way" - really?) acknowledging the severe weather, there was this quote from the CFI:
A review of Snapchats videos posted by the instructor reportedly shows that the CFI called the student "slow, like Forrest Gump Jr" in one of the earlier videos and complained about the fact he "had to be up early the next morning".
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You've no doubt read about the hazardous attitudes.

We're taught to believe that CFIs are unquestionable masters of aviation and education. Sadly, many have 251 hours and no real passion for education.
This one clearly had contempt for his student and more important things to do than exercise good judgement. Or teach.

By the way, NEXRAD images have significant lag. If it shows a system to your east, but it is moving westward, do NOT attempt to skirt around ahead of it based on the imagery. Either sit and wait or pick a path where the storm has already passed over.
 
I don't thread needles, but others do successfully.
 
aftCG said:
Well, in addition to the above post with the CFI's own image and words ("headed are way" - really?) acknowledging the severe weather, there was this quote from the CFI:

You've no doubt read about the hazardous attitudes.

We're taught to believe that CFIs are unquestionable masters of aviation and education. Sadly, many have 251 hours and no real passion for education.
This one clearly had contempt for his student and more important things to do than exercise good judgement. Or teach.

By the way, NEXRAD images have significant lag. If it shows a system to your east, but it is moving westward, do NOT attempt to skirt around ahead of it based on the imagery. Either sit and wait or pick a path where the storm has already passed over.
Click to expand...
I am at a loss as to why they chose to deviate to the right, into the worst part of an advancing storm (not that left would necessarily have been a better choice, better to avoid altogether), but that was about the worst in-the-moment decision that could’ve been made, after many opportunities to turn around prior.

The only thing I figure is they must have thought the Cherokee had the speed to outrun the storm and if I had to guess, they were likely using outdated radar data to estimate the position of the storm.
 
Flying Keys said:
I am at a loss as to why they chose to deviate to the right, into the worst part of an advancing storm (not that left would necessarily have been a better choice, better to avoid altogether), but that was about the worst in-the-moment decision that could’ve been made, after many opportunities to turn around prior.
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It's very difficult to identify the edges of a storm at night by eyesight alone. It could have been that all of the lightning was on the left side of the storm making the right look clearer. Also the overlay of the storm and their flight track may be less accurate than reality would dictate.
 
Here is a discussion on Reddit about this crash along with the actual snapchat video. This CFI killed his student as well as himself and frankly should have never been flying or teaching.

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/16v5rvw

By the way, NEXRAD images have significant lag. If it shows a system to your east, but it is moving westward, do NOT attempt to skirt around ahead of it based on the imagery. Either sit and wait or pick a path where the storm has already passed over.

Especially at night where you can't even see them.
 
BMan said:
As a student pilot myself, can anyone surmise ANY logical reason a CFI would have them make this flight given what they knew? This is so far outside of what I've learned thus far. I'd assume a student could reject a CFI's decision/directive to go in a case like this, correct?
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Logical reason is CFI was an epic moron.
 
dmspilot said:
Logical reason is CFI was an epic moron.
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Agreed, but there are many flight instructors just like this one in flight schools all across the US. There is no way the chief instructor, if s/he was paying any attention to his instructors at all, wasn’t aware of this guys attitudes. The instructor didn’t get this way overnight. Unfortunately he took the life of a paying student when the hand of consequence smacked him out of the sky. It would be a good guess to say the family of the student pilot is about to inherit a flight school and any assets they may have.

In aviation, we try our best to learn from mistakes, incidents, and accidents, in the hope of preventing them in the future. I’d say two lessons could be learned just from the information we have so far:

1. For any flight school that employs an instructor exhibiting these attitudes, they should correct the situation immediately.

2. For any student pilot, don’t be afraid or have any reservation about cancelling a flight or refusing to fly with an instructor you don’t like. This may be a little more difficult at a 141 school, but if I was a chief instructor and a student or students didn’t want to fly with a certain instructor, I’d want to find out why and take action.
 
the day I was doing my multi training was by far the bumpiest day I've ever flown before or since. really pretty nasty up there. when we got back to the FBO a CFI was sending his student off to solo. we told him how nasty it was up there and that it really would be the perfect day to make a wise decision and choose to fly another day. the student was listening, but the CFI was like I'm sure it's fine, he'll be fine. I'm sure he'll probably be fine too, but that doesn't mean it's a smart decision. the CFI was adamant about how it'll be fine. I pulled the student aside and said man, I don't care what your CFI says, I'm sure you'll be fine too, but knowing what I know now, there is flat out no way I'd send a student up to solo today. period.

CFI's can be complete knuckleheads too. now this video....there's GOTTA be something else to it, maybe like an inside joke or something. a person simply can't be that much of an a-hole.
 
eman1200 said:
the day I was doing my multi training was by far the bumpiest day I've ever flown before or since. really pretty nasty up there. when we got back to the FBO a CFI was sending his student off to solo. we told him how nasty it was up there and that it really would be the perfect day to make a wise decision and choose to fly another day. the student was listening, but the CFI was like I'm sure it's fine, he'll be fine. I'm sure he'll probably be fine too, but that doesn't mean it's a smart decision. the CFI was adamant about how it'll be fine. I pulled the student aside and said man, I don't care what your CFI says, I'm sure you'll be fine too, but knowing what I know now, there is flat out no way I'd send a student up to solo today. period.

CFI's can be complete knuckleheads too. now this video....there's GOTTA be something else to it, maybe like an inside joke or something. a person simply can't be that much of an a-hole.
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Oh yes a person can be that much of an a-hole.
 
Looked up the CFI, he got his CFI certificate in May 23. It would be interesting to see his training background and checkouts, and if they were all at his employer's. The plane had a lot of legs that day, I wonder how many of those were flown by that crew? Get home itis? Tragic for the 18 year old student.
 
I can’t imagine how upset the student’s family would be after seeing the CFI’s video. Complete negligence.
 
The worst part of the video (but absolutely telling as to the character of the CFI) is that it was being edited and posted to social media WHILE he should have been instructing/monitoring and making the decisions regarding deviating around the weather.

That CFI downright murdered that student. He is damn lucky he didn't live to see a trial.
 
might be almost 70 years old, but if I was around this CFI, I would beat the living daylights out of him. I am in the best shape of my life and I can outrun most people 30 years younger than me. There’s no place for his attitude in aviation.

Wish I could go and slap him, what a shame this is.

Viper
 
So if this played out how it seems, a guy that was a CFI that shouldn't be, was he operating independently, or as part of a flight school? If the latter, was anyone paying attention to him? Had he done stupid sh&t before?

I'm asking because if you are a school hiring a new guy, it might be a good idea to see how much judgement they have before you let them take your airplanes out.

For the students out there, if this doesn't cause you to always be present and aware of any go/no-go decisions I don't know what would.
 
Albany Tom said:
So if this played out how it seems, a guy that was a CFI that shouldn't be, was he operating independently, or as part of a flight school? If the latter, was anyone paying attention to him? Had he done stupid sh&t before?

I'm asking because if you are a school hiring a new guy, it might be a good idea to see how much judgement they have before you let them take your airplanes out.

For the students out there, if this doesn't cause you to always be present and aware of any go/no-go decisions I don't know what would.
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I think he’d only been instructing for several months. Not sure if that’s long enough to establish much of a pattern.
 
Albany Tom said:
So if this played out how it seems, a guy that was a CFI that shouldn't be, was he operating independently, or as part of a flight school? If the latter, was anyone paying attention to him? Had he done stupid sh&t before?

I'm asking because if you are a school hiring a new guy, it might be a good idea to see how much judgement they have before you let them take your airplanes out.

For the students out there, if this doesn't cause you to always be present and aware of any go/no-go decisions I don't know what would.
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It was posted on reddit that he was fired from his previous instructor job.

Screenshot 2023-09-30 at 2.27.29 PM.png
 
Very possible that ATP found out about his arrest and canned him.

On a different, but related note - would he have run into trouble on his next medical for history of arrest for contributing to the delinquency of minors?
 
I know it's not this generation, or all kids. We just hired 4 new people, all 25 or under, and they're just solid employees. Good work ethic, balanced outlook on things, not hot heads, they'd fit right into the world in the 40's. But the old guy in me reads threads like this and thinks "kids these days are all screwed up". Well, some of them are, but not all.

I feel lousy for the student and their family. It sucks for them, and it's not fair.
 
BMan said:
As a student pilot myself, can anyone surmise ANY logical reason a CFI would have them make this flight given what they knew? This is so far outside of what I've learned thus far. I'd assume a student could reject a CFI's decision/directive to go in a case like this, correct?
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A good instructor will teach proper risk evaluation.

Absolutely you can tell a CFI to go pound sand. Who’s paying the CFI?
 
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