Owning

Huckster79 said:
Oh and yes owning I agree brings a whole new aspect of flying, you become a better pilot in terms of you care more how your flying habits effect your Metal Maiden of the Skies long term, etc. I have found there is as much or more involved with learning to become a GOOD owner as their is learning to fly the contraption to begin with.
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This. So much this. There is SO much more to aviation than you realize when renting. I've learned endless amounts of systems, systems management, good engine practices, pre-heating. Learned about STC's, 337's, TSO, planning upgrades, finding mechanics, finding parts, changing oil, best brands, oil analysis, finding resources, finding the nitty gritty specifics of one type of aircraft. There's SO much to plane ownership that most renters just don't realize, and then it's a crash course. But it's absolutely a great way to learn aviation first hand and to see what the flight world is really like outside of regulations and training.
 
If you live check to check, they buying and or financing a toy is not a good idea. If living check to check is not you, GO FOR IT. Just know that there are other expenses, both known, unknown and those life brings you...like marriage and kids.

You sound like you have a head on your shoulders. Life my friend is short, if you have the where with all to start living your dreams, DO SO. I’m no millionaire, not in the least, strictly blue collar. I finally got my first plane, married with children. I had a secure job and a partner in the first plane made it a bit easier. I’m on the fourth one now going into retirement.

Be smart, don’t get in over your head and you will be ok. Worst case, you can always sell if need be and pick up again later. Owning or co-owning beholds you to no one, except Mother Nature, the FAA and the bank...LOL
 
In my way of thinking when you must buy the aircraft by borrowing money, what happens when the engine quits on the way home, and needs an overhaul?

Now what ?
 
Tom-D said:
In my way of thinking when you must buy the aircraft by borrowing money, what happens when the engine quits on the way home, and needs an overhaul?

Now what ?
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How does paying cash guard against that possibility ?

The answer is: You park the plane until you can find the money to fix it.
 
Tom-D said:
you will still have the option of borrowing to fix it.
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Or you can sell it for whatever value it has left and walk away. Harder to do if you have a loan for 2x what the non-functional plane is worth.
 
Tom-D said:
you will still have the option of borrowing to fix it.
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Outside of the issue of overall loan to income ratio, whether you can do that is not dependent on whether you borrowed money to buy it in the first place.
 
Bill Watson said:
Sounds like you want it and will like it so do it.

Not crazy.

I was fortunate when I started down the ownership road. After getting my PPL with SEL and glider, I fell in love with soaring so my first 2 aircraft were gliders. Not any cheaper to buy than a small airplane but a lot cheaper to maintain and they came with trailers.


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I did the same, I am on my 3rd flyable glider and a 1/3rd owner in a Bellanca Scout. In 20+ years of owning gliders I think I have only once spent more than $150 for an annual “condition inspection”. 80% of them have cost less then $100. My average non optional maintenance costs average well under $250 per year (including the inspections), I average about 75 hrs a year in the gliders.

As opposed to our scout where our 15year average is between $2500-$3000 for annual maintenance and inspections, and we only fly it about 50-60/hrs per year.

Brian
 
Tom-D said:
In my way of thinking when you must buy the aircraft by borrowing money, what happens when the engine quits on the way home, and needs an overhaul?

Now what ?
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That’s why if you can afford $1000/month for it you don’t get one requiring a $999/month payment... that’s me. My payments $400 a month, with hanger n insurance it’s $600 a month. I don’t factor gas in, but that leaves me $400/month if god forbid the continental pukes... it also means I’m paid off in 4 years or 5 years... should be at 1000 hours or so by then so as long as she can make it 1000 hours it wouldn’t be much drama...

And at 1.99% interest I will make minimum payments- as I’m better off investing the difference that returns me say 5%...
 
Tom-D said:
you will still have the option of borrowing to fix it.
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Who says I wouldn't have that option. Just because I borrowed $50k to buy it doesn't mean I couldn't borrow more to fix it if need be.
 
WeekendWarrior said:
How irresponsible of an idea would it be to try getting pre-approved for an aircraft loan? I don't have the cash now to buy anything decent, full stop, but I have solid month-to-month income with the ability to make payments.
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I only paid cash, but I heard that 9 out of 10 planes have a lien attached. That's why the research services exist. So, it's a common practice.

However, although I would not worry too much about the payments (provided you don't exceed, say, 15% of your pre-tax income), I urge you to think about the cost and availability of parking first. Hangars are absurdly expensive these days, if you can even get one.
 
zaitcev said:
I urge you to think about the cost and availability of parking first. Hangars are absurdly expensive these days, if you can even get one.
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That varies quite a bit by location but good point none the less.
 
Buy a 180HP Skyhawk and never look back! But, take your time and buy the right one...
 
Also consider flying with a CFI for 90 minutes each in planes of your interest and reach. I did this with a Cherokee, Arrow, Archer, 172N, 172M, 182P, DA40. I not only received cross training on different platforms, which made me a better pilot, but had a much better understand the plane for me was a 182P or Q model. YMMV.

-David
 
JOhnH said:
Take you time buying it,
and then take your time getting to wherever you want to go.
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Sure, at 120 kts it's not the fastest, but it takes the same amount of time to fuel, preflight, taxi, park and unload. If you compare the trip time, the extra 20 kts or so the C182 gives you really is negligible and you're saving $ on fuel. The C182 is definitely more roomy...
 
NordicDave said:
Also consider flying with a CFI for 90 minutes each in planes of your interest and reach. I did this with a Cherokee, Arrow, Archer, 172N, 172M, 182P, DA40. I not only received cross training on different platforms, which made me a better pilot, but had a much better understand the plane for me was a 182P or Q model. YMMV.

-David
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This is excellent advice if you can do it!
 
idahoflier said:
Sure, at 120 kts it's not the fastest, but it takes the same amount of time to fuel, preflight, taxi, park and unload. If you compare the trip time, the extra 20 kts or so the C182 gives you really is negligible and you're saving $ on fuel. The C182 is definitely more roomy...
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That's true. And it was one of the factors that kept me from upgrading to a 182 when I sold my 172. The extra 20 kts wasn't worth it. But the extra 50 kts in the Bo was worth it, but at the expense of useful load. My 172N (w 180hp) had over 1,000# useful load, or about 825 with full fuel. And it didn't have to be mostly up front. I'm happy with my Bo but I sometimes miss my 172. But it was just too slow to make the long X-Countries that we make. Florida to Eastern Canada last year. Florida to Alaska recently. Florida to Seattle next month. And several other real cross country trips each year.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Who says I wouldn't have that option. Just because I borrowed $50k to buy it doesn't mean I couldn't borrow more to fix it if need be.
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most times prior indebtedness rules you out for more debt.
in any case the aircraft can't be use as collateral because they won't be worth the new/overhauled engine.
 
short answer: buy but be ready for the wallet pain

long answer: I am 38, married with no kids nor any plans for kids. The wife and I make just shy of $150k per year. we have a modest mortgage, not much other credit based debt, and still paying off student loans. we paid cash for my PPL while renting the whole time. After earning my ppl we rented for another 50 hrs of fun flying. At that point we wanted to be able to fly when and where we wanted to fly without worrying about having the plane back by the end of the day. I also plan on some sort of aviation career as a second career after I retire from the military, so I need to build hours and ratings. We bought a C172L for $48k. at that time it had 700 hrs SMOH. in the past year I will have flown close to 175 hrs in it. in that short time we have had mostly minor maintenance issues and one costly transponder replacement. There are a hand full of other minor issues that I need to fix along the way too. All in all I have spent close to $9k in main alone this year. that doesnt include hangar, insurance or my monthly loan payment. Am i saving money? NO WAY.... is it nice to be able to just pack up and go whenever and wherever the VFR winds will take me? Yup! keeping old birds flying is not cheap, and a c172 is about as cheap of a certified aircraft as you will find. I wouldn't do anything different accept maybe build a plane emergency maintenance savings prior to purchase. That way the wife wouldn't be so mad when I have to dip into our regular savings.

good luck with your journey
 
Didn't expect this to get so many replies. I appreciate them all as I soul-search about options. A little more information might be in order.
About the living at home bit - it's a mutually agreed-upon situation. In three months my younger sister will be away to college so it'll be just me and the parents. I have all the freedom I really want or need at the moment, and while I do plan to move out eventually, my situation is such that I don't have much pressure to. I do pay "rent", so I'm not just taking freebies, but that's somewhat immaterial and a private arrangement that's between the family.

A few things that I've noticed in the replies that have been unexpected - there are more folks paying bank notes to fly than I thought. It may be a stupid decision, and I appreciate everyone who has pointed that out, but that's why I probed for the information from people who've done it.

Partnership would be my natural first inclination, but I don't have too many pilot friends with the financial ability to back it. Those who do are looking for Bonanzas and the like, so I'm priced out of the group there. I'm really just looking for something simple, fixed-gear, and (relatively) cheap.

As far as aircraft choice, a few have pointed out the 150/152. At 6'3 and just a hair over 250#, I'd basically be limiting my trips to short hops with a pax or solos. The rationale behind something like a 172 is that I can bring a friend and a couple bags and still be relatively comfortable doing it. I rent a 150 every so often but I couldn't see myself owning one.

Here's another thing I'm pondering - an RV. I don't have the time or patience to build yet (although my later-life goals include doing it), but there seem to be several decent candidates for sale in the pre-built/pre-owned category. I do like the relative performance gain from an RV - beats a 172 easily.

Oh, if only this decision was easier...
 
WeekendWarrior said:
Didn't expect this to get so many replies. I appreciate them all as I soul-search about options. A little more information might be in order.
About the living at home bit - it's a mutually agreed-upon situation. In three months my younger sister will be away to college so it'll be just me and the parents. I have all the freedom I really want or need at the moment, and while I do plan to move out eventually, my situation is such that I don't have much pressure to. I do pay "rent", so I'm not just taking freebies, but that's somewhat immaterial and a private arrangement that's between the family.

A few things that I've noticed in the replies that have been unexpected - there are more folks paying bank notes to fly than I thought. It may be a stupid decision, and I appreciate everyone who has pointed that out, but that's why I probed for the information from people who've done it.

Partnership would be my natural first inclination, but I don't have too many pilot friends with the financial ability to back it. Those who do are looking for Bonanzas and the like, so I'm priced out of the group there. I'm really just looking for something simple, fixed-gear, and (relatively) cheap.

As far as aircraft choice, a few have pointed out the 150/152. At 6'3 and just a hair over 250#, I'd basically be limiting my trips to short hops with a pax or solos. The rationale behind something like a 172 is that I can bring a friend and a couple bags and still be relatively comfortable doing it. I rent a 150 every so often but I couldn't see myself owning one.

Here's another thing I'm pondering - an RV. I don't have the time or patience to build yet (although my later-life goals include doing it), but there seem to be several decent candidates for sale in the pre-built/pre-owned category. I do like the relative performance gain from an RV - beats a 172 easily.

Oh, if only this decision was easier...
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Great point on size, at 5’9” I was a very averaged sized guy when my bird was built and even at that the Cessna 140 is crowded with a passenger.. you are wise factoring that in...Cherokee 140s can be a good buy too, no first hand experience but have heard they make a really nice plane flown as a 2 seater...
 
I like my Cherokee 140 a lot. Generally, they're less expensive to purchase than a 172. I'm 5'8", 155lbs, and my CFI is maybe 5'11" and 220lbs. It is VERY cozy, and you may or may not enjoy the process of climbing in over the wing, through the single door, and across the copilot's seat to get to the pilot's seat. None of the bothers me, and it's a perfect, cheap, simple plane for me, but you might not dig it. I've got four seats in mine, but have only had four people in the airplane one time, two were very small adults, and it was a short trip with much less than full tanks. It's really a two seat airplane with a pair of seats for luggage in the back. It's worth exploring, however. I wouldn't buy ANYTHING until you've flown enough to know what YOU like... there's pluses and minuses to high vs low wing. My early training was in a 152, then a couple different 172s, then bought in the Cherokee, but ended up doing my checkride back in a 152 at the last minute because my DPE didn't like something about the way my A/P I/A notated an A/D compliance at my last annual. Forgot how much fun the 152 was... and WAY over-shot on the simulated engine out portion of my checkride. The DPE was very cool about it.. Cherokees sink like a rock compared to a 152, and I'd flown nothing but the Cherokee for a year... he said I would have had it no problem in my Cherokee and gave me another shot... went fine.
I digress. Happy journey.
 
WeekendWarrior said:
Here's another thing I'm pondering - an RV.
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You cannot buy an RV for 172 money. The cheapest 2-seater is RV-4, and that one starts at $45k. And don't believe people who tell you about "good deals".

Also, RV-4 has no baggage room to speak of. An RV-6 does, but it's a $70k+ airplane.

Oh, and one other thing: RV-4 is very small inside. In most of them, I cannot even sit in, or if I can snake in, I cannot close the canopy. I'm a little taller than you, at 6'5", but not by much.
 
zaitcev said:
You cannot buy an RV for 172 money. The cheapest 2-seater is RV-4, and that one starts at $45k. And don't believe people who tell you about "good deals".

Also, RV-4 has no baggage room to speak of. An RV-6 does, but it's a $70k+ airplane.

Oh, and one other thing: RV-4 is very small inside. In most of them, I cannot even sit in, or if I can snake in, I cannot close the canopy. I'm a little taller than you, at 6'5", but not by much.
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I’m not too sure about all that. 172s have gone way up in price this last year. RV6s and 9s can be had with a simple panel for pretty fair costs. I have seen decent 6s for as low as 45k that’ll do 160 knots all day long with room for 1 more and some bags.

I decided to buy last month. With rental of a 182 costing me 150 an hour, it wasn’t much more expensive to own the RV9 we just bought. Operating costs of the Vans planes are just much less. We financed 60% of the cost of the plane. The 9 we bought cruises at 160 knots at 8 gallons an hour. Base price for an annual is 800 bucks, and a lot of work you can do yourself. Going from only flying cessnas to the RV9 was like getting in a Ferrari! Whatever you decide to do, good luck and have fun!! I know I am!!
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WeekendWarrior said:
The rationale behind something like a 172 is that I can bring a friend and a couple bags and still be relatively comfortable doing it.
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You're 6'3" and 250 and you find a 172 to be comfortable? You must be shaped differently than me. I'm about 6' and weigh maybe slightly less than 250 if I stand on the scale just right and both solo and with someone in the other seat I always found the 172 to be cramped. I can fit in them and I can fly them, but I never found them to be anything close to what I'd call comfortable. Different strokes I guess.
 
zaitcev said:
You cannot buy an RV for 172 money.
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The validity of this statement depends entirely what you are and what you are not willing to own. Willing to own an airframe that has several thousand hours and is much older than you? Then yeah, you can get into a 172 cheaper than an RV in most cases. But if you'd be more comfortable owning something newer and/or with significantly less total time, the prices get into the same ball park very quickly.
 
Just for kicks, my journey after years racing sailplanes was a tailwheel 180hp Maule for 1700 hours, instrument, commercial and lots of cross country flying at 113 - 117knots. I spent the last 5 years flying it while building an RV10. I expect that to be my lifetime plane. A true traveling machine @155 to 162kts - and I get to maintain it.

Location means a lot. Yours is fixed. I moved out of NYC and then away from the NY area to NC. And moved into a house on a small residential airpark with a grass strip and built my own hangar. For a lifelong aviator, it was the best and most cost effective thing I could have done.

Friends, spouses and community mean a lot. Had all three matched up perfectly when soaring - the best times of all. Once we moved, we lost many of our soaring community but my wife is perfect in all ways; she pushed me to continue flying, she soloed a glider then decided that I could do the flying, she’s a petite 5’ and 109lbs which means extra room and payload in any aircraft. She even knows how to rivet. And she’s a hottie so there’s that.

Dual incomes helps the financing a lot and no kids really clears the deck so to speak. Nothing like an aircraft to get you focused on making more $$ (oh I’m sure a kid or two would change that priority).

Not to say any of that was planned. But it has been a matter of picking your spots, prioritizing what’s important and taking the leap when your heart and pocket book says it’s the time. Take it.


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Tom-D said:
most times prior indebtedness rules you out for more debt.
in any case the aircraft can't be use as collateral because they won't be worth the new/overhauled engine.
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Maybe, maybe not. My lender wouldn't bat an eye at modifying my existing loan to cover the repair. In any event, whether you can incur more debt in the form of a new loan vs a mod to an existing loan or line of credit is likely more dependent on your income and other available assets (home equity, for example) and not the collateral value of the plane unless that is your only asset. The point is you can't make blanket statements because everyone's situation is different.
 
WeekendWarrior said:
About the living at home bit - it's a mutually agreed-upon situation.
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And that's all that needs to be said about that.

A few things that I've noticed in the replies that have been unexpected - there are more folks paying bank notes to fly than I thought. It may be a stupid decision, and I appreciate everyone who has pointed that out, but that's why I probed for the information from people who've done it.
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Whether its a wise idea to borrow money for a plane is a personal decision. If you have a regular income and the payments dont keep you from doing the other things you should do at this point, there is no reason you can't borrow money on a plane. As has been pointed out before, in sole ownership of an old aircraft, you need to have the ability to come up with a couple of thousand $$ to do things like replace a cylinder, replace a dead transponder, fix some structure problem on short notice. So you either need that money in savings, or you need ready access to unsecured credit to cover that possibility.

Partnership would be my natural first inclination, but I don't have too many pilot friends with the financial ability to back it. Those who do are looking for Bonanzas and the like, so I'm priced out of the group there. I'm really just looking for something simple, fixed-gear, and (relatively) cheap.
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I have less capital in my Bonanza partnership than I would have into owning a 172 outright. Create a posting with tear-off strips that you are looking for a partnership in a fixed gear single engine aircraft. Partnership shares are rarely advertised and there are many who own a share of this or that without really making use of it. If they get nudged by posting on the FBO bulletin board, they may give you a call. The downside of a partnership share is that it is less liquid than an actual plane. It can take a while to sell a share.

Here's another thing I'm pondering - an RV. I don't have the time or patience to build yet (although my later-life goals include doing it), but there seem to be several decent candidates for sale in the pre-built/pre-owned category. I do like the relative performance gain from an RV - beats a 172 easily.
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You may want to sit in one. It'll be snug.
 
weilke said:
And that's all that needs to be said about that.



Whether its a wise idea to borrow money for a plane is a personal decision. If you have a regular income and the payments dont keep you from doing the other things you should do at this point, there is no reason you can't borrow money on a plane. As has been pointed out before, in sole ownership of an old aircraft, you need to have the ability to come up with a couple of thousand $$ to do things like replace a cylinder, replace a dead transponder, fix some structure problem on short notice. So you either need that money in savings, or you need ready access to unsecured credit to cover that possibility.



I have less capital in my Bonanza partnership than I would have into owning a 172 outright. Create a posting with tear-off strips that you are looking for a partnership in a fixed gear single engine aircraft. Partnership shares are rarely advertised and there are many who own a share of this or that without really making use of it. If they get nudged by posting on the FBO bulletin board, they may give you a call. The downside of a partnership share is that it is less liquid than an actual plane. It can take a while to sell a share.



You may want to sit in one. It'll be snug.
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You might also want to do the same tactic but saying you're looking for a partnership to see if there's a solo owner who maybe isn't flying it 24x7 and would consider taking on a partner.
 
MIFlyer said:
You might also want to do the same tactic but saying you're looking for a partnership to see if there's a solo owner who maybe isn't flying it 24x7 and would consider taking on a partner.
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Yes and no. Many tales of woe start with that configuration. Someone used to being an outright owner who 'has to take a partner'....

Another option worth mentioning is a 'non equity partnership' (oxymoron). More precise term would be 'usage agreement'. Someone who doesn't get much use out of his plane allows you to use it in exchange for paying a n agreed upon share of fixed and/or variable cost. No cash up front, no additional liability if the plane needs unexpected repairs. It seems to work for some.
 
An RV-6A is listed right now in the VAF classifieds. 0-320, slider canopy, VFR day/night, aging avionics, 1725 TT, $30K. I'd want a pretty thorough pre-buy inspection, but if it checks out??? Who knows.
 
A lot of talking about owning not saving money, I am not sure I agree. I think it comes down to how much you fly. Where I rent its $135 for a 172. If I can find one for $50K, then make sure I fly it 10 or more hours a month, then it comes out just a bit cheaper. If I can find a two partners, we can each fly just 5 to 6 hours saving almost $30 an hour. There is some risk that there will be an abnormal maintenance bill. Sit down and figure out what it is really going to cost. Call around and find a hanger, get an insurance quote, look up average annual cost, figure out what your fuel/oil usage will be, don't forget registration, and taxes. See how much you would have to fly to make it cheaper than renting and then be honest. I can't afford to fly 120 hours a year and never have, so I don't own (yet). I have considered a partnership on a Cherokee 140 with $3K buy in. I can fly only 1 hour a month and it cost me the same as a rental with no three hour minimum per day charge. Normally I fly 5 to 6 hours a month, which saves me about 38% over the rental for the same hours. One thing that I looked at when choosing aircraft was speed divided by fuel burn for that speed. If the number is 13 or higher, its probably good. Ten or lower is a lot of fuel being used for a given speed. For a C182 it is about 32% faster than a Cherokee 140, but at 57% more fuel burn. In my mind not worth it. C172 and Cherokee 140 are about 13, the C182 and the Cherokee 235 is about a 10. How cramped something is, especially if uncomfortable, would sway that thinking a little.
 
We saved a lot of money when we flew 250 hours annually between the two of us. We spent way too much money when that dwindled to a few dozen hours. Then, of course, we held on to it for another five years, just to make sure ... and sold it at market bottom. If you expect something like that, then you are well prepared for airplane (or sailboat) ownership.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
We saved a lot of money when we flew 250 hours annually between the two of us. We spent way too much money when that dwindled to a few dozen hours. Then, of course, we held on to it for another five years, just to make sure ... and sold it at market bottom. If you expect something like that, then you are well prepared for airplane (or sailboat) ownership.
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That was exactly the scenario between me and my two partners. Nothing ever got done because I had to wait for their OK to fix any squawks, renew insurance, blah blah blah, so the plane was just a giant hole to throw money in and not fly for years. That's why I bought them out. I'm putting a lot of money into it now, but am looking forward to flying it enough that I DO finally start saving money by owning it.
 
tsts4 said:
Maybe, maybe not. My lender wouldn't bat an eye at modifying my existing loan to cover the repair. In any event, whether you can incur more debt in the form of a new loan vs a mod to an existing loan or line of credit is likely more dependent on your income and other available assets (home equity, for example) and not the collateral value of the plane unless that is your only asset. The point is you can't make blanket statements because everyone's situation is different.
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How would it feel to owe on the airframe and engine? to the amount that you are underwater on it.
 
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