Owning one of these

The reality? It's grounded. You can't fly it at all without upgrading to Stage 3 hush kits, which costs about $1.5million....
 
stratobee said:
The reality? It's grounded. You can't fly it at all without upgrading to Stage 3 hush kits, which costs about $1.5million....
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What about one of the smaller jets like a lear or citation?
 
Well I live in a city of ~50k people in MS and at my airport alone we have 3 CJ1s owned/flown by individuals, so I’d say it’s pretty feasible.
 
ktup-flyer said:
Well I live in a city of ~50k people in MS and at my airport alone we have 3 CJ1s owned/flown by individuals, so I’d say it’s pretty feasible.
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Well, I think Tom had someone in mind with more modest means.

The reality is that an older jet can be had relatively cheap but more likely than not the would need very expensive inspections/maintenance soon to be kept legal to fly. Not to mention insurance would be outrageously expensive.
 
Unless it's one of the few smaller jets approved for single pilot operation, all of them require a two pilot crew, and that means training at least once a year. Then there's insurance, maintenance and hangar costs, not to mention fuel and reserves for engine inspections.
Sure, the initial price to buy an older jet is pretty cheap for some, but it's the daily costs and the unexpected maintenance items that keep it out of reach from most "average" people.
On something like a Westwind or a Hawker, a mid-sized jet with 731's, it burns roughly 300 gallons the first hour and 225 every hour after that. I have no idea what something like a GII burns.
On the Hawker, we just replaced one half of the windscreen because of a heating element failure, costs, about 30K.
Unless you have some reason to use it as a business tool to make money, it's a very large money pit for just a toy.
 
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champ driver said:
Unless it's one of the few smaller jets approved for single pilot operation, all of them require a two pilot crew, and that means training at least once a year. Then there's insurance, maintenance and hangar costs, not to mention fuel and reserves for engine inspections.
Sure, the initial price to buy an older jet is pretty cheap for some, but it's the daily costs and the unexpected maintenance items that keep it out of reach from most "average" people.
On something like a Westwind or a Hawker, a mid-sized jet with 731's, it burns roughly 300 gallons the first hour and 225 every hour after that. I have no idea what something like a GII burns.
On the Hawker, we just replaced one half of the windscreen because of a heating element failure, costs, about 30K.
Unless you have some reason to use it as a business tool to make money, it's a very large money pit for just a toy.
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Says it burns about 556 GPH. 8000 hr TBO so if the logs are correct, these engines are past TBO. But hey, it does say maint costs are dropping.
:D
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...nance-costs-dropping-spey-powered-gulfstreams
 
If you can write quarter million dollar checks without blinking an eye, it's feasible.
 
The upkeep and operation costs are what would kill ya. Listing prices that look attractive for these older kerosene burners are the ‘get it out of my hair now’ price.
 
Follow the article written by Dr. Dick Karl in FLYING magazine. He bought a Beech Premier and keeps complaining about the cost of ownership. The latest in his tale of ownership is a spoiler actuator that keeps setting off warning lights in the cockpit. That little bugger is going to cost around $35,000 to replace. It sounds a lot like buyer's remorse and I'm surprised that a smart, successful cancer surgeon like Dr. Karl didn't realize the cost of owning such an aircraft. His prior airplane was a Piper Cheyenne so the step up to the Premier was a big one. Truly the saying " if you have to ask, you can't afford it" applies to jet ownership.
 
I know of two billionaire brothers (really billionaires, not like Trump!) who have a Citation Sovereign, and at least two Global Express jets, maybe three now. They still take Southwest sometimes, and one of them almost always makes his son fly Southwest. Sometimes, he can take the Sovereign!

I knew private jets were expensive when I flew on the same plane as George Strait once. Seems like he could always fly private if he wanted, but he wasn't.
 
Brad Smith said:
Follow the article written by Dr. Dick Karl in FLYING magazine. He bought a Beech Premier and keeps complaining about the cost of ownership. The latest in his tale of ownership is a spoiler actuator that keeps setting off warning lights in the cockpit. That little bugger is going to cost around $35,000 to replace. It sounds a lot like buyer's remorse and I'm surprised that a smart, successful cancer surgeon like Dr. Karl didn't realize the cost of owning such an aircraft. His prior airplane was a Piper Cheyenne so the step up to the Premier was a big one. Truly the saying " if you have to ask, you can't afford it" applies to jet ownership.
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Yeah I think he bite off a little more than he can chew on that one. He had jet dreams and nothing was going to stop him. He even admits that the buy was a bit impulsive.

Personally would have liked to see him go with an older Citation SP. Think his acquisition and operating costs would have been much easier on the wallet.
 
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Brad Smith said:
Follow the article written by Dr. Dick Karl in FLYING magazine. He bought a Beech Premier and keeps complaining about the cost of ownership. The latest in his tale of ownership is a spoiler actuator that keeps setting off warning lights in the cockpit. That little bugger is going to cost around $35,000 to replace. It sounds a lot like buyer's remorse and I'm surprised that a smart, successful cancer surgeon like Dr. Karl didn't realize the cost of owning such an aircraft. His prior airplane was a Piper Cheyenne so the step up to the Premier was a big one. Truly the saying " if you have to ask, you can't afford it" applies to jet ownership.
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He got the jet bug when he was flying that charter gig. I think he's gonna hurt himself in that Premier from the sounds of the difficulties he had in training and flying it.
 
mscard88 said:
He got the jet bug when he was flying that charter gig. I think he's gonna hurt himself in that Premier from the sounds of the difficulties he had in training and flying it.
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Yes, I'm not seeing the appeal, at least now. I get the speed and capabilities part, but the demand, especially single pilot in one of these looks daunting. I watch some of these guys on youtube vids and they are at the top of their game with 1000's of hours. They make it look easy, but I know better. And like I said, the cost of fuel alone puts it above my paygrade.
 
I’m sitting on a Delta flight as I type this. Decided to not take the Conquest because the weather was marginal, I was solo and thought I would “save” some money on my business trip. Been absolute hell and I’ve lost two productive days with delays, misconnects, and cancellations. The Jet-A would’ve been a 10x bargain compared to the lost time.

I keep dreaming about a jet, but just can’t get the numbers to work over a turboprop for my mission. I completely understand Dick’s impulse, but no way he owns that thing very long and will soon be back in a cabin class turboprop or piston.

That gulfstream would require a mountain of cash to get to your first takeoff and a bigger mountain to fly it for a year.
 
James_Dean said:
I’m sitting on a Delta flight as I type this. Decided to not take the Conquest because the weather was marginal, I was solo and thought I would “save” some money on my business trip. Been absolute hell and I’ve lost two productive days with delays, misconnects, and cancellations. The Jet-A would’ve been a 10x bargain compared to the lost time.

I keep dreaming about a jet, but just can’t get the numbers to work over a turboprop for my mission. I completely understand Dick’s impulse, but no way he owns that thing very long and will soon be back in a cabin class turboprop or piston.

That gulfstream would require a mountain of cash to get to your first takeoff and a bigger mountain to fly it for a year.
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It sounds as though you could make a case for it with your business if you really wanted to, which, if I were in that position might change my view on it. If you can truly afford the plane, then you can afford a co-pilot/instructor for a hundred hours or whatever it takes to get really competent, more in my case. But swing it myself? The only way I could see it working is if I had about $30,000,000 working for me to pay for it (that's obviously not a Gulfstream, but something with turbine engines). So it's a no brainer for me.
 
PaulS said:
It sounds as though you could make a case for it with your business if you really wanted to, which, if I were in that position might change my view on it. If you can truly afford the plane, then you can afford a co-pilot/instructor for a hundred hours or whatever it takes to get really competent, more in my case. But swing it myself? The only way I could see it working is if I had about $30,000,000 working for me to pay for it (that's obviously not a Gulfstream, but something with turbine engines). So it's a no brainer for me.
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I could swing it financially, but the Conquest has 90% of the capability at 50% of the cost of a Citation for my mission. It’s just a bad case of SJS.
 
And they lost my bag....... with suits and my cpap in it. Great, just F’ing great.
 
Tom-D said:
What about one of the smaller jets like a lear or citation?
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All the older ones are fuel hogs, really dated equipment that's difficult to keep reliable. Just look at all the gyros and flags on that gulfstream you posted. At some point it doesn't make sense to pay insurance, hangar and for time limited inspections when the airplane is broke all the time.

It happens, airplane is contracted to do X, Y, & Z, by the time the squawks are worked from that inspection A, B, C, D are due.
 
James_Dean said:
And they lost my bag....... with suits and my cpap in it. Great, just F’ing great.
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Hmmm, I think there might be a harder look at a jet over at the Dean household in the next few weeks, keep us posted.
 
James_Dean said:
I’m sitting on a Delta flight as I type this. Decided to not take the Conquest because the weather was marginal, I was solo and thought I would “save” some money on my business trip. Been absolute hell and I’ve lost two productive days with delays, misconnects, and cancellations. The Jet-A would’ve been a 10x bargain compared to the lost time.

I keep dreaming about a jet, but just can’t get the numbers to work over a turboprop for my mission. I completely understand Dick’s impulse, but no way he owns that thing very long and will soon be back in a cabin class turboprop or piston.

That gulfstream would require a mountain of cash to get to your first takeoff and a bigger mountain to fly it for a year.
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One of the questions I've already been getting is when we're upgrading from the MU-2 to a jet. While I've heard a number of people make the arguments about the economics of turboprops vs. cabin class piston twins (starting with Wayne Bower, and continuing since then), I've never heard anyone make that argument about a jet vs. a turboprop. When you look at the relative MPG of a turboprop vs. a cabin class piston twin, associated fuel costs, and the maintenance aspects, there's some good logic to that.

But the jets... yeah, they're expensive, and there's nothing efficient about the old ones at all. Very inefficient.

Person I know ended up selling a G-II for $50k to someone in Mexico.
 
I worked for a company in Alaska that found out the competition was getting a business jet. The owner of the company wanted a jet, too, so he found one on eBay. Same thing, older business jet that needed many upgrades, but it was a jet and it was priced less than a C-207 in Alaska. Thankfully there were people in the office that talked him out of it. The decision not to buy delayed the company from folding for another 10 months.
 
gkainz said:
I NEVER *caps intentional* check my CPAP on commercial flights!!! Sorry to hear about the customer service (in the farm and ranch meaning of the word) you're getting...
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Agree. My rollerboard didn’t fit so they gate checked it.
 
If you have to go jet, and old 501SP is probably the cheapest entryway into the jet world. Pretty simple plane, lots and lots of parts around. You're just going to fly marginally faster than a TP, but have 100% more fuel burn and shorter range. Anything that has Williams engines you'd better stay away from if you want to save money...
 
stratobee said:
If you have to go jet, and old 501SP is probably the cheapest entryway into the jet world. Pretty simple plane, lots and lots of parts around. You're just going to fly marginally faster than a TP, but have 100% more fuel burn and shorter range. Anything that has Williams engines you'd better stay away from if you want to save money...
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Lot of truth there, and part of why jets just get so hard to justify. If you can afford some of the new ones, there are some that are pretty efficient, but there are a lot of concerns with respect to long term maintenance costs.
 
stratobee said:
The reality? It's grounded. You can't fly it at all without upgrading to Stage 3 hush kits, which costs about $1.5million....
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If I bought it, after that couple hundred thousand purchase price (with luck) and the hush kits you mention, it would still be grounded because I couldn't afford fuel.
 
Like a lot of planes out there... you may be able to afford to buy it, but not to own or fly it.

I talked to a guy who was getting his stuff out of his Eclipse 500 one night. I think he said it was about a grand per hour to fly. I didn't ask if that included maintenance and overhaul reserve or not.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
One of the questions I've already been getting is when we're upgrading from the MU-2 to a jet. While I've heard a number of people make the arguments about the economics of turboprops vs. cabin class piston twins (starting with Wayne Bower, and continuing since then), I've never heard anyone make that argument about a jet vs. a turboprop. When you look at the relative MPG of a turboprop vs. a cabin class piston twin, associated fuel costs, and the maintenance aspects, there's some good logic to that.

But the jets... yeah, they're expensive, and there's nothing efficient about the old ones at all. Very inefficient.

Person I know ended up selling a G-II for $50k to someone in Mexico.
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Person I know just gave away his Turbo 206 in Mexico. Might have had something to do with the automatic weapons they were holding.
 
James_Dean said:
And they lost my bag....... with suits and my cpap in it. Great, just F’ing great.
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That's their new service. That way when they drag off the airplane because the double booked your seat, you don't have to worry about your bag arriving without you.
 
DaleB said:
Like a lot of planes out there... you may be able to afford to buy it, but not to own or fly it.

I talked to a guy who was getting his stuff out of his Eclipse 500 one night. I think he said it was about a grand per hour to fly. I didn't ask if that included maintenance and overhaul reserve or not.
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That would include at least some level of MX. Things burn very little fuel per hour relatively, I think like 65 gph combined or so.
 
My take on airplane (and boat) ownership is you have to juggle shiny/new/fast with cringe factor on hourly cost or when or the loan/maintenance payment comes in. There is a balance that will suit your needs.
 
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