Owning a Saratoga with zero time in model and insurance

[xander75]

hi folks,
am new to the community here so bare with me if i pose a basic or already answered question!

I am a 10 year PP mostly in 172/182 and PA28R's. After years of renting I am really looking forward owning my own airplane.

As I am looking into Arrow II's or III's, which is where i have most of my time in, the insurance cost is reasonable. However I was pointed to evaluating Saratoga as well which is said to fly very similar, gives more room to passengers, more range and is just a natural upgrade.

While talking to the insurance company, because of my zero time in that model, the rate is kazoo!
But how can i build time if i can't rent it...

How did you guys do that in terms of owning a plane that is not easy to rent, but building time in it?
Is it a matter of accepting the first year of insurance is expensive and as you build time and more ratings that the rate will drop as you go?

I dont know if that is possible for the forum to recommend, but what insurance companies would be suggested for this? I have always been through AOPA and maybe there are others that I need to consider?

If I do find a Saratoga, is it advised to pick it up together with a CFI for the ferry home?
And when you have it on your new home base take some extra time with a CFI for an x number of hours as a safety pilot or instruction?

yeah if you have some suggestions from experience here, love to hear!
thanks for the time!
cheers!
xander

 

[mondtster]

How did you guys do that in terms of owning a plane that is not easy to rent, but building time in it?
Is it a matter of accepting the first year of insurance is expensive and as you build time and more ratings that the rate will drop as you go?

That's what most people do, or self insure.

There are many things that affect insurance rates. The PA32 seems to be viewed as a higher risk for lower time pilots so time in type, total time, and an instrument rating will help if you don't have those things. I've been working with a guy on an instrument rating in his Saratoga to hopefully bring his rates down. I was a bit surprised to hear how high his insurance was, for a seemingly simple airplane. His hull value is fairly high however, which also is affecting his rate.

 

[xander75]

ah hey thanks for that mondster! never considered self insuringit is an approach indeed. on the other hand, it is that thing we get hammered out of us in aviation to never think "it wont happen to me". So maybe it is an option then to start with a good liability insurance and accept the risk for the hull (which is the majority part of the rate) and increase it up as one goes.

for comparison, I was being quoted shy of 2k for an arrow, 8-10k for a saratoga. I have started on my IFR, so similar scenario as the fella you are working with. I am in the north east, do those rates compare from what you know?

sounds like it I need to make a decision to either go with an arrow 2/3 have a lower insurance rate but fully covered, do IFR in there and potentially over time trade it or bite the bullet with a more expensive insurance rate, build time in it and go IFR there and possibly skimp out on the hull coverage to save on cost.

would you happen to have a suggestion/comment on the flying experience between an arrow iii and a saratoga? they are flying similarly? (eg both drop like bricks, same feel with the tapered wing etc).
not that it is worth anything, but I have been xplane'd both of them (knowing the arrows in actuality) and it doesnt feel much different. if at all the (simulated) heavier weight makes the saratoga a little more robust in the air and albeit requiring some higher approach speeds, hence burning more runway, in the sim feels even easier to manage especially with heavier winds. is that correct(ly simulated/a good reflection)?

cheers!!xander!

 

[wayne]

Suck it up and pay it the first year. Painful option though. Then fly it a bunch. Lots and lots of hours. Then it’s much cheaper the next year. Plus you learn the plane really well.

Do you have your IR? If not, that could be contributing to it too. If not, work out that the first year of ownership as well. A great way to build time, learn your plane and build new skills, all at the same time.

 

[xander75]

hey cheers for that wayne! great thinking, it is a great reason to get up more, learn it better and be better as you say. owning a plane is not a cheap hobby, end of story
could you say if a saratoga insurance for a new owner of 8-10k is reasonable? (without IR btw) and yes working on that for sure!

I was researching a bit more on self insuring, that appears to be or can be a hazard and possibly the wrong type of cost cutting.

sucking it up it is

x!

 

[mondtster]

for comparison, I was being quoted shy of 2k for an arrow, 8-10k for a saratoga. I have started on my IFR, so similar scenario as the fella you are working with. I am in the north east, do those rates compare from what you know?

I don't know exactly what my student's insurance premium is but I think it is around $6k. He has a fair amount of time in type now which helps, but total time is relatively low. His airplane is pretty new, so hull value would be high, which will always push the premiums higher. The number of seats will also cause a premium increase, so don't be surprised if you always have a higher premium in a PA32 than you would in a PA28 even with lots of experience and an instrument rating. I don't think the quote you got is too far off from what it sounds like his started out at.

There are some PA32 owners on this board so hopefully they will comment on what they are seeing for insurance rates.

sounds like it I need to make a decision to either go with an arrow 2/3 have a lower insurance rate but fully covered, do IFR in there and potentially over time trade it or bite the bullet with a more expensive insurance rate, build time in it and go IFR there and possibly skimp out on the hull coverage to save on cost.

Liability only would get you by until you have some flight experience and maybe an instrument rating if you're ok with assuming the risk of a loss. Or you might consider paying the high premium the first year and making sure to fly the airplane enough to help bring the rates down in the subsequent years. Working on your instrument rating would be a good way to learn the airplane and make sure you get some flight time during year one, even if you never fly IFR after you earn the rating.

would you happen to have a suggestion/comment on the flying experience between an arrow iii and a saratoga? they are flying similarly? (eg both drop like bricks, same feel with the tapered wing etc).

Aircraft systems are pretty similar so you wouldn't have much to learn there. The sight picture in the PA32 is a bit different but nothing that I would expect to take a lot of practice to figure out. The weight when fully loaded will probably be noticeable between the two at first, but it shouldn't take a lot of adjustment. If I were to try to equate it to something, the PA28 would be like flying a sedan and the PA32 would be like flying a van.

 

[mandm]

For insurance, call BWI, they are an insurance broker and will compare several insurance companies rates for you.

I just purchased an Arrow, and I love the plane. I had about 25 hours in type before purchasing the plane so the insurance said I was ready to go (I think insurance looks for a minimum of 10 hours in type). I was going to book an instructor in the plane but I ended up just flying into town and picking up the plane and flying back. Stick to the basics and remember to fly the airplane, stay away from any weather/icing.

Before buying a plane, I would recommend getting instrument rated, not so much for insurance (I think it gives you about 10% cheaper on the rate), but to have the ability to understand weather a bit more and know how to shoot an approach in the worst case. I have run into weather issues a couple times already in my short time of owning, one time doing a complete 180 and diverting around, and another time diverting left and around. The instrument training of rely on the instruments and fly the airplane kicked in.

While learning the airplane you’ll discover things that you want fixed, you’ll know the airplane and how it likes to be run, this costs money.

Get a good prebuy inspection, buy low time, complete logs and recent maintenance is ideal. If you are getting an Arrow, check if it’s been used as a trainer and consider if you want the wing spar inspected, I would also have the fuel tanks pulled and check the inner spar is ok too. Spend a little more to have more avionics than you want. Get an annual and all inspections done so you are good to go for a year minus your oil changes every 50 hours or so.

I wouldn’t spend 8-10k on insurance personally that’s hefty. Get an Arrow and build your hours, and get a Saratoga later on. I’m a bit biased towards the Arrow.

 

[Jim K]

There's a lot of variables; I can only give my perspective. I bought a 76 lance about 18 months ago. I had a little over 300 hours, 0 retract, & a fresh instrument rating. My first year insurance was right around $5000 with a hull value of $140k. I went with avemco because they were the same price as the other quotes, but required fewer hours of training (10 vs 25) and allowed me to use any cfi... most companies wanted the cfi to have 100 hours in type. Avemco also let's you update hours and re-rate the policy quarterly. Hitting 120 hours in type brought it down about 10%. They tell me the next "break" is at 500 tt.

I would recommend getting quotes from avemco and a broker. There's lots of recommendations on here if you search for "insurance broker". AOPA's affiliated insurance was over $1000 higher than my other quotes.

I've never flown an arrow or a saratoga. I learned in an Archer & warrior and have about 50 hours in a Dakota. The lance is about as far from the dakota as the dakota is from the warrior. The weight and power require a little more oomph to control, and the long nose takes time to get used to. You're blind on climbout. In flight they're very docile and cherokee like. The lance is sluggish in roll, I assume the 'toga is better with longer wings and more aileron. You'll definitely want some transition training, and your insurance will require it. After my required 10 hours I was pretty comfortable.

Welcome

 

[Unit74]

The big liability factor is in the seats so I’m told. More people on board, more checks to write.

 

[texasclouds]

My insurance rate was high first year because I lacked tailwheel time. I had 15 hrs and 5 in type. Rate was high but was cut in half second year when I showed ip with over 100 hrs in type to renew.

I expect a similar situation would happen for you. Also, having an instrument rating usually gets you a big discount.

 

[xander75]

ah great this is super helpful unit74, texasclouds, jim, mandm and mondster for the detailed answers!
I can do something with this, very great guidance, thanks for sharing that with me!
have a good weekend!
xander

 

[Lon Stratton]

Insurance rates really went up this year. I've been with USAIG for 26 years and just renewed.

2500+ hrs in type
Commercial/Instrument
1982 PA32R-301T
Hull 185,000
Liability 2M smooth
Premium 4533.00

Highest I've ever paid. I was sent this attachment as an explanation.

 

[Rgbeard]

Curious, where are you located?

there’s a highly active Facebook community for PA-32s and it’s easy to find pilots and CFIs there.

 

[Pilawt]

The big liability factor is in the seats so I’m told. More people on board, more checks to write.

When I bought my PA-32 I asked about premium discounts if I took seats out and insured it as a 4-seater instead. It can be done, I was told, but the difference is only about $150/year. Not worth the reduction in utility.

 

[Hang 4]

Insurance rates really went up this year. I've been with USAIG for 26 years and just renewed.

2500+ hrs in type
Commercial/Instrument
1982 PA32R-301T
Hull 185,000
Liability 2M smooth
Premium 4533.00

Highest I've ever paid. I was sent this attachment as an explanation.

The $2million smooth is what is driving your rate. I'm amazed they would even write it. I've been trying to get $1m smooth for the last couple years. ~500 hours, PP and IR. Same insurer, wouldn't even quote smooth.

 

[Lon Stratton]

I think you're right. I was able to get that back when coverage was favorable to the insured. I've asked for a breakdown of the coverage to see what liability actually costs.

 

[Unit74]

Yea, I was also told 1m smooth they wouldn’t write.

 

[weilke]

For the initial step up , Avemco can be a bit more tolerant than other insurers. After a year or two, get a broker to re-bid and you will be able to get insurance from a company that will do things that Avemco won't do (e.g. smooth limits).

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Another PA32 owner here so another data point. I have a 77 Lance and had zero retract time going in. I was $4600 the first year without an IR. I was $4400 this past year with an IR and 150 hours in type. I do have a flying buddy on the policy who is a CFI but he only has 35 in type. I believe he is holding my rate up with the lack of time in type. I'm almost at 300 hrs in type now. Curious to see what this year does.

 

[hindsight2020]

If I was in that situation I'd pivot to a FG -300 (not the -301, too little useful) and eat the speed penalty. I could expand on the specifics, but I don't really care about fac-builts anymore to get into another 2-circle about it on here. You can PM me and I'll give you the long winded dissertation if so inclined. Good luck.

 

[Pilawt]

If I was in that situation I'd pivot to a FG -300 (not the -301, too little useful) and eat the speed penalty.

Last year I was shopping for either a FG Cherokee Six or a retractable Lance. I was just about to hit the big 7-0, so I asked my insurance broker to price out the difference in premiums between a FG and a retractable of equal age and hull value. I have 4500 hours total, 1000 retractable (of which 150 in a PA-32R-301), IR, CFI.

Premium for the retractable was just about double that for the fixed-gear. Some companies wouldn't even quote me in the retractable. I bought a fixed-gear Six.

 

[Rebel]

ah hey thanks for that mondster! never considered self insuringit is an approach indeed. on the other hand, it is that thing we get hammered out of us in aviation to never think "it wont happen to me". So maybe it is an option then to start with a good liability insurance and accept the risk for the hull (which is the majority part of the rate) and increase it up as one goes.

cheers!!xander!

I self-insured until I had about 60 hours in type, called the agent back and got a way-better rate.

 

[benyflyguy]

I was recently added to my friends lance insurance. I have 300 hours and a IFR ticket. I also had about 25 hours in retract time in an arrow. My of my hours are in a 182. To add me to the policy it was about 3500.
Had to do 5 hours with CFI and 10 hours solo before I can carry passengers. I’m told once over 100 hours in type it will go down. No choice but to pay.

 

[N747JB]

Last year I was shopping for either a FG Cherokee Six or a retractable Lance. I was just about to hit the big 7-0, so I asked my insurance broker to price out the difference in premiums between a FG and a retractable of equal age and hull value. I have 4500 hours total, 1000 retractable (of which 150 in a PA-32R-301), IR, CFI.

Premium for the retractable was just about double that for the fixed-gear. Some companies wouldn't even quote me in the retractable. I bought a fixed-gear Six.

I sold my Conquest I to a gentleman that was 76 years old, tons of time including military and airlines, he couldn’t get insured! He had one company offer him coverage at $40 something grand per year!! All because of his age, good pilot, no accidents etc. He hired a pilot for insurance purposes, not sure who actually flew it though!

 

[bradg33]

Honestly, the lack of an instrument rating is a large portion of what's driving your high PA32 premiums. In general, insurance companies don't like non-IFR pilots in high performance airplanes. I own a Bellanca Super Viking with a few partners. We were told when we bought it that we wouldn't be able to get it insured at all if all pilots weren't instrument rated (though the BSV has a poor accident history and we have 5 pilots, which limits our available carrier options).

You've also got to pay attention to the details on folks who are posting about crazy high insurance rates. Over the last few years, the insurance companies appear to have really taken a hard line on older pilots.

 

[N747JB]

Honestly, the lack of an instrument rating is a large portion of what's driving your high PA32 premiums. In general, insurance companies don't like non-IFR pilots in high performance airplanes. I own a Bellanca Super Viking with a few partners. We were told when we bought it that we wouldn't be able to get it insured at all if all pilots weren't instrument rated (though the BSV has a poor accident history and we have 5 pilots, which limits our available carrier options).

You've also got to pay attention to the details on folks who are posting about crazy high insurance rates. Over the last few years, the insurance companies appear to have really taken a hard line on older pilots.

I was told the insurance companies, in general will renew an older pilot, but not write one on a new airplane.

 

[Lon Stratton]

The $2million smooth is what is driving your rate. I'm amazed they would even write it. I've been trying to get $1m smooth for the last couple years. ~500 hours, PP and IR. Same insurer, wouldn't even quote smooth.

You are correct. The 2M Liability premium is 2150. 1M would cost me 1145. They're probably renewing me because I've been with them for such a long time.

 

[weilke]

I was told the insurance companies, in general will renew an older pilot, but not write one on a new airplane.

Yes. Once you get up there, also make sure you are with a insurer that has a long track record in aviation . We had a situation where our insurer left the aviation market and dropped their entire 'book' with 6mo notice. We had a recent claim and one partner >70. It was very challenging to get coverage at that point and oddly enough it wasn't the recent claim, it was the older pilot in a retract aspect. If you have coverage for a few years with a good insurer, they will renew, but they may not write new coverage.

 

[Pilawt]

I just got notice of a FAAST webinar on insurance and insurability issues, put on by American Bonanza Society. It might be helpful.
Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 19:00 Central Standard Time (17:00 PST, 18:00 MST, 20:00 EST, 15:00 HST, 16:00 AKST, 18:00 Arizona, 01:00 GMT)

http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/event_details.aspx?eid=109822

 

[N747JB]

Yes. Once you get up there, also make sure you are with a insurer that has a long track record in aviation . We had a situation where our insurer left the aviation market and dropped their entire 'book' with 6mo notice. We had a recent claim and one partner >70. It was very challenging to get coverage at that point and oddly enough it wasn't the recent claim, it was the older pilot in a retract aspect. If you have coverage for a few years with a good insurer, they will renew, but they may not write new coverage.

I have made a habit, good or bad, to renew with the same carrier if they were competitive, 3-10% increase I just stayed with them. Usually they were cheapest, but not always. But, when I’ve had claims, they were good and renewals weren’t an issue.