Ownership low-down

T

Tucker Nielson

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Apr 18, 2020
Messages
1
Display Name
Display name:
Tucker
Hello all,

I'd thought I would drop into this forum to ask about aircraft ownership. Specifically owning an experimental aircraft.

I'm a new pilot (less than 300 hours) and I got into aviation just as fun challenge and the view up above sure is nice. I never had any real reason to go anywhere so I've simply been renting a nice PA-161 from my local club and fly it around for a bit. But now I have an excuse to try to fly somewhere. I live in Salt Lake City UT and I have a work project in St. George UT. It is exactly a 300 mile drive and takes me about 4 hours. Well a friend of mine took me up in his Vans RV6 (nothing fancy) and I loved the way it flew (way faster than my PA-161).

So now I have a reason to fly somewhere and renting isn't an option since I need to stay down south for a few days at a time. I almost always fly alone, I've only had a passenger a few times so I don't need anything big.

There are several RV's in my area that are for sale. I'm tempted to jump into aircraft ownership but I need some real-life experienced pilots to give me the low-down on what it costs to fly(commute) in an experimental aircraft. I recently sold my boat and I was amazed at how much time became available to me. The boat was a 'family activity machine' that we really enjoyed but the time came for us to move-on. It surprised me how much effort/time it took to keep everything maintained, cleaned, and new(ish) looking.

Everybody on the Vans Airforce forum says I should do it but that audience is a little biased. So what say ye? Am I foolish for even considering it? What is your experience?

Thanks for your feedback,

Tucker
 
I'll jump in -

Answer these questions and you'll be well on your way to deciding if its a good idea or not:

1. Can I afford to buy this aircraft outright, or am I going to finance it. (personally, I'd never finance an aircraft in my current situation. Maybe if I were a high net worth entrepreneur, financing (or even leasing) might make sense.

2. Do I have my spouse's support (or at least consent).

3. Can I get into a hangar. Hangars can go for as little as $200 or many times that per month for rent. Or, maybe you can buy a "condo" t-hangar for around $65,000?

4. If a major repair pops up unexpectedly, can you afford to sink more money into it? Or, will you now have an expensive hangar queen.

5. Insurance premiums?

6. Insurer's flight experience requirements?

7. Transition training? ( I very highly recommend it!)
 
The only thing stupider than buying a boat is buying a plane.

I bought mine 3 years ago, and don’t regret it. It takes constant vigilance to keep it functioning and safe. That takes money and time.
 
as soon as you buy a RV you will want a 4 place.
 
The fixed costs of owning an airplane can be significant - opportunity cost of the capital tied up, insurance, storage/hangar, annual inspections, potential state taxes and so forth.

So is the time invested, similar to your boat.

Some of those costs can be managed down with an experimental-amateur built plane like a Vans RV.

The benefit is there's nothing else like owning and flying your own airplane. An RV is not the only choice of "homebuilt" planes, but hard to go wrong with one of them.
 
So real life - probably going to cost more than you anticipate. Aircraft ownership requires some level of financial discipline. That means you need a budget, a way to fund that budget and a way to handle costs that are unexpected. And depending on your ability to wrench (and either ownership of tools or know someone that has them), you should be able to save some money in the experimental world. The other good news is many in the experimental world are willing to lend a helping hand and teach you what you don’t know.

So be realistic. Put together a budget by asking those with similar aircraft what they budget and what they spend. Might cost you a beer or 2 and don’t believe the wink and nod guys. If the numbers are too low - something’s wrong. For example, if someone tells you $200 a month, find out what that encompasses. My 91 AG5B Tiger, I budget $1K per month for all fixed and variable costs ((hangar rent (shared hangar), insurance, maintenance, and some gas) but does not include capital costs (I paid cash so if you have a payment add it to the budget) or the cost of upgrades. Some months it’s under and some months it’s over with the largest variable being fuel. Figure out if you can afford whatever your budget turns out to be along with the cost of the hiccups (batteries, flap motors, etc.). Don’t kid yourself into thinking you will under-run the estimated budget. The only way that is likely to happen is to control the variable costs by stop flying. Then where are you. And if you have a spouse and/or children, be realistic about the cost impact on the family. There is a reason many of us had to wait until or 40-50’s to own a plane. Second, get real about safety. It’s your life and if you don’t feel comfortable working on your own aircraft, then include in your budget the costs of paying someone to do it. Finally, find a mentor. Someone you can trust to teach you the right way to do things and who will offer unvarnished advice when you need it.

I am happy I made the decision to own. Yes, it costs more to own than renting but I know the plane, I know what it can do, and I know it’s safe to fly. YMMV.
 
@Jumpmaster hit the highlights.

Bias: I own an RV.

IMHO, perfect "one, maybe two" person airplane. Their efficiency is awesome, their capabilities can be relatively affordable (like all experimentals).

You need to be willing and capable of turning a wrench or two, running a wiring circuit or two, to make them that much more affordable than a certified airplane.
 
As someone who has been crunching my own and other's numbers for about a year now:

The "per month" cost is sensitive to the number of hours you actually fly. But you ought to figure you'll be around $1000/month for 8 hours of time, give or take. Experimental will be a little less, but you'll put more time into it too.

Based on 10 hours/month, if you're coming up with a number under $100 and you're not in a small 2 seater like a 152, you're missing something, I calculate around 110/hr for a 172 and about 135 for an early model Mooney. I figure 1300/month for 10 hours in that Mooney.
 
Real world numbers here, derived from five years of RV-12 ownership. It's some pretty cheap flying. There are currently three of us who own the plane, but that was after I bought it outright and flew it for a couple of years. So why did I sell 2/3 of my ownership interest? Because, among other things, I don't need to have the whole plane to myself. I'm doing well if I get over 50 hours a year in the air. But the numbers I'm throwing out here are gross, not per person.

Insurance runs us $1400 a year, and none of us are over 300 hours. Two were student pilots when they bought in. We pay $170 a month for a T-hangar. The plane isn't financed, so there's no interest. "opportunity cost" is in the eye of the beholder; I could have invested some of that cash I laid out, but then I wouldn't have been flying. At all.

Our cost per flight hour, wet, including engine reserve, is just under $35 per hour. It's an RV-12, we burn 5 GPH (or less) of premium MOGAS. So so the math; flying 10 hours per month will cost me (as a 1/3 share owner) about $430. If I were the sole owner, it would be a little over $600, all in.

We've spent money on upkeep and upgrades. We just spent $700 to upgrade the radio from an SL-40 (sold it for $700) to a GTR 200 (paid $1400). I put lifetime Teflon lined fuel hoses on; that was a one-time $700 hit. We typically spend between $500 and a grand doing the annual, but usually on the low side. Oil, filter, gaskets, spark plugs, miscellaneous items. I spent a few hundred bucks and a weekend to get my LSR-I certificate so I can sign off on the condition inspection... so we rarely need the services of an A&P. We do have one we can call, we just never need to call him.

Let me put it to you this way: Ownership is something we think is worthwhile, and we're thinking that, while 3 guys and one airplane is nice, three guys and TWO airplanes would be even better.

Now sure, I know people who spend a metric buttload of money owning an airplane. I'm a cheap SOB, and if it were costing me a lot of money I'd be the first to admit it. But really, it's not. Our monthly fixed costs are low, and our cost per hour is scandalously low, so we're happy. You can pick up some other RV with a Lycosaurus and spend more on fuel and maintenance, but it's probably still not going to cripple you. And yes, please do get transition training, really. No mater which RV you want, even the "lowly" 12.
 
Ok, I'm not going to get into the finance and how do you pay for it and justify it stuff. If you're an adult and don't know how to manage how much money you have available for things... IDK how to help :p

You can probably call an insurance company or two and ask for a quote on a hypothetical aircraft. So you can estimate that amount, then you'll want somewhere to keep it. Where I live hangars are almost mandatory with snow and hail being a concern. I have no idea what a hangar will cost you or(important) if you'll be able to find an available one. Where I live you can get a hangar for anywhere from $90-400/mo depending on how good of a hangar it is....IF you can even find one that's available. I've heard of people in other areas saying they pay more than that for a tie down. You'll need to figure out the deal for your airport, anything we tell you is going to be availability and cost where WE live not where you're at.

Maintenance wise with an experimental you've got options. Are you up to doing a lot of the work yourself? If so it might be reasonably affordable. Look up what a new engine for that airplane costs, that's probably a good benchmark for the worst case scenario. Best case is whatever the local mechanic you use charges for an annual(or I think it's a condition inspection for experimental). My experience with certified piper aircraft flying around 100hrs/year has been about 1.5-2x the cost of the annual in a typical year. That worked out to around $2,000/year for a fixed gear Archer and around $3,000/year for a retract Lance. Not counting upgrades.

I know you probably were looking for numbers just to add together but a lot of this stuff ends up being pretty regional/model specific.
 
Interesting and informative discussion, thanks all.
Obviously, this is a very pro-general aviation community, and we encourage flying! There's been good discussion on the financial and time demands.

May I offer some other considerations:
OP, you said it's four hours driving. What do you (or others) think that will be for flying time?

It's easily 30 minutes on each side to preflight and get going, plus secure it on the end. Not sure where your airport is in SLC? St. George airport is ~20 mins driving to downtown St. George.
How much time will you save? What's the value of that time?
What will you do for ground transportation in St. George?

How critical is it that you are on site on time? Can you be a half-day late?
How is the weather?
How long will your project last?

It'd sure be a lot of fun, though only you can decide if it's a wise plan.
 
I have Ron Wanttaja’s book: Airplane Ownership. It’s available on Amazon. Ron is a POS member but I don’t know him. Anyway, you are asking good questions and getting good answers. I would still recommend reading his book for an even better perspective of ownership.
 
To expand on @G-Man ’s comments, are you instrument rated, and how do you think that will affect your commuting ability?

Note that I’m not an advocate of “you can’t travel reliably if you can’t fly IFR” philosophy...I’ve done a lot of traveling in a VFR airplane. But you have to be aware of and plan for the appropriate issues.
 
Others have said enough about aircraft ownership in general so I won't add to that. As for owning an experimental specifically, it depends on the experimental. A mainstream one like an RV is in many ways almost like owning a certified aircraft, the construction and systems are conventional, the kits are so complete that there should be no surprises, and most A&Ps will be willing to work on it you don't or aren't able to work on it yourself. If you are comfortable working on it, it can be significantly less expensive to operate, though fixed costs (hangar, gas, etc.) are no different from certified.

Tucker Nielson said:
...I recently sold my boat and I was amazed at how much time became available to me. The boat was a 'family activity machine' that we really enjoyed but the time came for us to move-on. It surprised me how much effort/time it took to keep everything maintained, cleaned, and new(ish) looking...
Click to expand...

Then you already have an idea. But a 2 seat airplane is less of a "family activity machine" so there may be less family support for spending lots of time at the airport.
 
I have a boat and an airplane.Now that I'm retired would'nt want to give up either one.The RVs are some good airplanes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top