Overshoot on base to final

[CharlieD3]

Interesting discussion here:
https://airfactsjournal.com/2021/07...tent=How+To+Prevent+Loss+Of+Control+Accidents


Interesting to me because of the nature of the pattern at my home 'drome. (See below.)

When I was trying to get current after 20 odd years, that pattern drove me nuts. I began to believe I could fly okay but would never be able to land... I told my CFII I needed to try this at an airport with a standard pattern... We shot some touch and goes and then went back to SkyRanch.

Every approach to the north runway is kind of an overshoot of a typical base to final turn... You (more or less) have to stay over the river... Or, bust the Charlie airspace of TYS. (See the screenshot from Avare).

Some of that flying leaks over to my pattern at normal airports some times. I'm a bit more lax if there's no traffic about and continue to land. If there's traffic, I make as precise a pattern as I can.

I think the notion that you're screwed if you overshoot is a shame. As the article suggests, it's just a matter of small adjustments or a go around if you can't correct. You normally wouldn't be 100% "landing configured" (full flaps, throttle idle) unless you had the runway made anyway.

Go around is fine... I've done it often. But if you can correct, why not?

Discussion?

 

[PaulS]

I just overshot final Friday, long day of flying, controller wanted to call my base, right traffic, tail wind on base. Lots of distractions and excuses, but I overshot final and wasn't even scared, just continued the turn until I was lined back up, continued what was a long final, experienced more than 10 knots of wind shear 200 feet above the runway (Indicated airspeed dropped from about 85 down to about 70 in a second), got to the runway (29) where the latest advertised winds were 320 11 G22. Had it lined up pretty good, flared, something happened, I bounced when I landed on one wheel, started moving sideways after the bounce, fixed that, landed again on one wheel, finished landing, smiled to myself that I had "cheated death" once again on a sporty day.

 

[eman1200]

since no airport code was included: TN98

looking it up, I don't see any reference to noise abatement procedures, which are ALWAYS second to my safety procedures. regardless, from that horrible diagram, I still don't see any issue. maybe fly downwind at 2k but once over the water all the way thru final is over nothing so I'm flying standard pattern. I see no need to overshoot anything. I also don't know what "under 100 hp" means.

EDIT: is the airport on the right side? honestly the more I look at this pic the more it confuses me.

 

[midlifeflyer]

since no airport code was included: TN98

looking it up, I don't see any reference to noise abatement procedures, which are ALWAYS second to my safety procedures. regardless, from that horrible diagram, I still don't see any issue. maybe fly downwind at 2k but once over the water all the way thru final is over nothing so I'm flying standard pattern. I see no need to overshoot anything. I also don't know what "under 100 hp" means.

EDIT: is the airport on the right side? honestly the more I look at this pic the more it confuses me.

Guessing: "Below 100 HP" probably means to set power below 100 HP. For example, in a 200 HP airplane, you'd set for no more than 50% power. There are a few airplanes (Cirrus comes to mind) which display percent power numbers. The rest of us probably do that anyway when we reduce airspeed to 90-100 in the pattern.

That said, if this airport has noise abatement procedures, they are sure keeping quiet about it! Nothing on the website, nothing on the Whisprtrak site, nothing reported to AOPA for its flight guide. And, like you, I don't really see the need for one. I can see being neighborly to the folks across the river but water on one downwind, highway on the other downwind, most water on final. (Here's the runway - I highlighted in green).

 

[luvflyin]

Interesting discussion here:
https://airfactsjournal.com/2021/07...tent=How+To+Prevent+Loss+Of+Control+Accidents


Interesting to me because of the nature of the pattern at my home 'drome. (See below.)

When I was trying to get current after 20 odd years, that pattern drove me nuts. I began to believe I could fly okay but would never be able to land... I told my CFII I needed to try this at an airport with a standard pattern... We shot some touch and goes and then went back to SkyRanch.

Every approach to the north runway is kind of an overshoot of a typical base to final turn... You (more or less) have to stay over the river... Or, bust the Charlie airspace of TYS. (See the screenshot from Avare).

Some of that flying leaks over to my pattern at normal airports some times. I'm a bit more lax if there's no traffic about and continue to land. If there's traffic, I make as precise a pattern as I can.

I think the notion that you're screwed if you overshoot is a shame. As the article suggests, it's just a matter of small adjustments or a go around if you can't correct. You normally wouldn't be 100% "landing configured" (full flaps, throttle idle) unless you had the runway made anyway.

Go around is fine... I've done it often. But if you can correct, why not?

Discussion?

Where’d you get that pic? I didn’t see anything like it here http://www.skyranchairport.org/
Looks like your talking about the red line to Rwy 19. I’d call that the South runway. Anyway, is the red line what you planned on flying because of noise abatement? If so, that ain’t an overshoot. If it’s what happened because you turned final late, then yeah, it’s an overshoot. Like has been said above and probably below by the time I get done with this, It’s not automatically a panic situation.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think the notion that you're screwed if you overshoot is a shame.

A lot of recommendations in aviation are based on a worst case scenario with the lowest common denominator pilot at the controls and making it a rule for everyone else. In this case, it's the pilot who, having overshot, decides to slam in the rudder instead of making a coordinated adjustment or, realizing they can't, go around.

 

[CharlieD3]

That pic hangs in the clubhouse at SkyRanch.

The white line is the left pattern for landing on the north runway (runway 1).
The red line is the RIGHT pattern for runway 19.

And the pic doesn't do justice to the flight path. You're actually over the trees at the south of the runway and kinda "curl" more left to the threshold.

 

[CharlieD3]

Also, "below 100 HP" is the tight pattern downwind/upwind area flown by low HP aircraft... Avoids all noise abatement areas.

I don't think the noise abatement is mandated-official. We just get complaints from those wealthy folks west of the airport... And we're doing what we can to be good neighbors.

Oh, and runway 1 is the calm wind preference.

 

[luvflyin]

That pic hangs in the clubhouse at SkyRanch.

The white line is the left pattern for landing on the north runway (runway 1).
The red line is the RIGHT pattern for runway 19.

And the pic doesn't do justice to the flight path. You're actually over the trees at the south of the runway and kinda "curl" more left to the threshold.

Ok. If you are ‘planning’ on overflying final, I don’t consider it an overshoot. You fly it in a way that allows you to get to the threshold without radical maneuvers. If the plan isn’t going as planned, then ya goes around.

 

[sarangan]

Interesting discussion here:
https://airfactsjournal.com/2021/07...tent=How+To+Prevent+Loss+Of+Control+Accidents


Interesting to me because of the nature of the pattern at my home 'drome. (See below.)

When I was trying to get current after 20 odd years, that pattern drove me nuts. I began to believe I could fly okay but would never be able to land... I told my CFII I needed to try this at an airport with a standard pattern... We shot some touch and goes and then went back to SkyRanch.

Every approach to the north runway is kind of an overshoot of a typical base to final turn... You (more or less) have to stay over the river... Or, bust the Charlie airspace of TYS. (See the screenshot from Avare).

Some of that flying leaks over to my pattern at normal airports some times. I'm a bit more lax if there's no traffic about and continue to land. If there's traffic, I make as precise a pattern as I can.

I think the notion that you're screwed if you overshoot is a shame. As the article suggests, it's just a matter of small adjustments or a go around if you can't correct. You normally wouldn't be 100% "landing configured" (full flaps, throttle idle) unless you had the runway made anyway.

Go around is fine... I've done it often. But if you can correct, why not?

Discussion?

I've heard people recommend a go-around any time things look a bit off, but go-arounds are not without risks either. Even in perfectly still air, every approach is going to be slightly different. That means we are always salvaging every approach. The key is to know when things have gone too far that warrants abandoning the approach.

 

[luvflyin]

since no airport code was included: TN98

looking it up, I don't see any reference to noise abatement procedures, which are ALWAYS second to my safety procedures. regardless, from that horrible diagram, I still don't see any issue. maybe fly downwind at 2k but once over the water all the way thru final is over nothing so I'm flying standard pattern. I see no need to overshoot anything. I also don't know what "under 100 hp" means.

EDIT: is the airport on the right side? honestly the more I look at this pic the more it confuses me.

 

[Clip4]

Guessing: "Below 100 HP" probably means to set power below 100 HP. For example, in a 200 HP airplane, you'd set for no more than 50% power. There are a few airplanes (Cirrus comes to mind) which display percent power numbers. The rest of us probably do that anyway when we reduce airspeed to 90-100 in the pattern.

That said, if this airport has noise abatement procedures, they are sure keeping quiet about it! Nothing on the website, nothing on the Whisprtrak site, nothing reported to AOPA for its flight guide. And, like you, I don't really see the need for one. I can see being neighborly to the folks across the river but water on one downwind, highway on the other downwind, most water on final. (Here's the runway - I highlighted in green).

View attachment 98824

The offending noise is from the propeller not the engine.

 

[X3 Skier]

I had just read the article. Surprised the idea of continuing the turn to final on an overshoot or going around instead of dying is a revelation.

But maybe it’s just me.

Cheers

 

[CharlieD3]

The offending noise is from the propeller not the engine.

Some.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The offending noise is from the propeller not the engine.

So? Reduce the MP in an airplane with a constant speed prop to its 100 MP setting. Do you have enough to drive the prop to it's highest RPM setting?

 

[David Megginson]

I think the notion that you're screwed if you overshoot is a shame. As the article suggests, it's just a matter of small adjustments or a go around if you can't correct. You normally wouldn't be 100% "landing configured" (full flaps, throttle idle) unless you had the runway made anyway.

Absolutely right. It's a crime how many pilots have died trying to "tighten" their base-to-final turns with inside rudder because they're convinced they'll have to go around if they overshoot the course to final, all because of this absurd old pilot's myth. It's 100% harmless I'd say in this case, even the go-around carries far more risk than a gentle S-turn to realign.

 

[sourdough44]

Can’t the pilot adjust AOB to be perfectly lined up on final? You have to do this ‘within reason’, after taking into account winds at pattern altitude. Yes, if going over 30 degrees AOB, proceed with caution.

 

[David Megginson]

Can’t the pilot adjust AOB to be perfectly lined up on final? You have to do this ‘within reason’, after taking into account winds at pattern altitude. Yes, if going over 30 degrees AOB, proceed with caution.

Of course. The skidding turn happens when the pilot has miscalculated (e.g. a tailwind on base), the bank angle needed is too steep, and pilot unintentionally add rudder because they think it's a major sin to overshoot final approach course.

The correct solution is not to bank more steeply (you don't want a 45° turn from base to final at 500 ft AGL), but just to let yourself overshoot and then bring it back in line with a gentle S-turn on final. It's one of the most harmless things in flying, and it's puzzling why older pilots made such a big deal over it and terrified their students unnecessarily.

 

[Albany Tom]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the question. Sometimes when you overshoot, it's it ok to correct back in? Sure, I do it all the time. Is it ok to skid instead of just making a normal turn? No, that doesn't help. The goal isn't to get the airplane *pointed* at the runway, it's to get the airplane *headed toward* the runway. When do you go around? When you're not stabilized by 500', or maybe a bit below that if you're confident that you can go around safely if you can't get it together before touchdown.

The only time this would make me nervous is a parallel runway situation, where if I go wide I'm in the other runway's final. Haven't flown those where there was anyone else coming in on the other runway.

 

[David Megginson]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the question. Sometimes when you overshoot, it's it ok to correct back in? Sure, I do it all the time. Is it ok to skid instead of just making a normal turn? No, that doesn't help. The goal isn't to get the airplane *pointed* at the runway, it's to get the airplane *headed toward* the runway. When do you go around? When you're not stabilized by 500', or maybe a bit below that if you're confident that you can go around safely if you can't get it together before touchdown.

The only time this would make me nervous is a parallel runway situation, where if I go wide I'm in the other runway's final. Haven't flown those where there was anyone else coming in on the other runway.

Good that you feel that way, and of course you're not missing something. The problem is that a) some pilots are embarrassed about overshooting the turn to final, and would rather risk their lives with a skidding turn than lose face in front of anyone waiting at the hold-short line for them to land, and b) there's a bizarre toxic idea that some instructors have taught that overshooting the turn to final means the approach is messed up and you need to go around. If you haven't fallen victim to either of these delusions, then no worries, and carry on.

 

[PaulS]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the question. Sometimes when you overshoot, it's it ok to correct back in? Sure, I do it all the time. Is it ok to skid instead of just making a normal turn? No, that doesn't help. The goal isn't to get the airplane *pointed* at the runway, it's to get the airplane *headed toward* the runway. When do you go around? When you're not stabilized by 500', or maybe a bit below that if you're confident that you can go around safely if you can't get it together before touchdown.

The only time this would make me nervous is a parallel runway situation, where if I go wide I'm in the other runway's final. Haven't flown those where there was anyone else coming in on the other runway.

When I say I miss, it's usually not by too much but enough to require a turn back, or continuation of a turn. I land often at a busy delta, that often has traffic on both sides of the runway, a big miss can put you in the path of the other sides traffic. Gotta watch for that.

 

[ebetancourt]

A lot of this discussion is because so many pilots really don't understand a basic turn, compounded by the idea that bank angle determines stall speed. I think a "competition aerobatic turn" where the bank is one step and then the turn is initiated with the elevator should be a part of early training.

 

[biplanebob]

An excellent video about turns and stalls by Wayne Handley (an AG and Acro pilot) "Turn Smart"

 

[TommyG]

A lot of this discussion is because so many pilots really don't understand a basic turn, compounded by the idea that bank angle determines stall speed. I think a "competition aerobatic turn" where the bank is one step and then the turn is initiated with the elevator should be a part of early training.

I know a DPE, and he was saying how he comes across a lot of pilots, not even students that don’t know proper rudder usage.

One can overshoot final and be able to fix it 1- by not yanking the nose up during the turn bringing it to a stall. 2- by actually using the rudder properly during the high bank turn.

 

[luvflyin]

When I say I miss, it's usually not by too much but enough to require a turn back, or continuation of a turn. I land often at a busy delta, that often has traffic on both sides of the runway, a big miss can put you in the path of the other sides traffic. Gotta watch for that.

Yeah. With parallel runways I never try to roll out off of base straight in. I keep my ‘aim’ to the ‘inside’ of the pattern on which side I’m flying. Then ease on over to the extended centerline. If I blow that, my ‘overshoot’ just puts me on straight in.

 

[Albany Tom]

Yeah. With parallel runways I never try to roll out off of base straight in. I keep my ‘aim’ to the ‘inside’ of the pattern on which side I’m flying. Then ease on over to the extended centerline. If I blow that, my ‘overshoot’ just puts me on straight in.

That's a great tip. I tend to run my patterns "engine out close", probably because of my primary training. That doesn't leave much room for error, especially if I miscalculate a crosswind. I think I'll practice intentionally going a little bit wide in an empty pattern, so I can add that to my tiny bag of tricks.

 

[luvflyin]

That's a great tip. I tend to run my patterns "engine out close", probably because of my primary training. That doesn't leave much room for error, especially if I miscalculate a crosswind. I think I'll practice intentionally going a little bit wide in an empty pattern, so I can add that to my tiny bag of tricks.

Ya don’t necessarily have to fly the downwind real wide to do this. Just a little less time on base before starting the turn to final. My roll out on base is nothing more than a quick glance for traffic.

 

[David Megginson]

When I say I miss, it's usually not by too much but enough to require a turn back, or continuation of a turn. I land often at a busy delta, that often has traffic on both sides of the runway, a big miss can put you in the path of the other sides traffic. Gotta watch for that.

That's fair. I used to be based at what would be a class B airport if it were in the U.S. (we don't use Bravo below 12,500 ft in Canada). The thing about those is that they tend to use wider circuits/patterns, so you generally have a longer base leg, and it's unlikely you'd overshoot the turn to final.

At the class G airport where I'm based now, we keep the circuit tight and the base leg short, so if you miscalculate the tailwind on based, you can find yourself overshooting already by the time you've rolled out from the first turn from downwind. The good news is that little airports like that rarely have parallel runways, so a gentle S-turn to line back up is no big deal.

In your case, I think the moral is don't fly a tight downwind if you're doing a circuit/pattern for parallel runways (unless tower specifically requests it). Maybe also slow down to Vref earlier, which will make your turning radius smaller without the need for steep banks.

 

[David Megginson]

Ya don’t necessarily have to fly the downwind real wide to do this. Just a little less time on base before starting the turn to final. My roll out on base is nothing more than a quick glance for traffic.

The Waco at our field (which does sightseeing flights) just calls "BaseFinal" and then cuts power and makes a continuous descending turn to touchdown.

 

[PaulS]

That's fair. I used to be based at what would be a class B airport if it were in the U.S. (we don't use Bravo below 12,500 ft in Canada). The thing about those is that they tend to use wider circuits/patterns, so you generally have a longer base leg, and it's unlikely you'd overshoot the turn to final.

At the class G airport where I'm based now, we keep the circuit tight and the base leg short, so if you miscalculate the tailwind on based, you can find yourself overshooting already by the time you've rolled out from the first turn from downwind. The good news is that little airports like that rarely have parallel runways, so a gentle S-turn to line back up is no big deal.

In your case, I think the moral is don't fly a tight downwind if you're doing a circuit/pattern for parallel runways (unless tower specifically requests it). Maybe also slow down to Vref earlier, which will make your turning radius smaller without the need for steep banks.

Or an airport running traffic in both right and left traffic.

 

[luvflyin]

The Waco at our field (which does sightseeing flights) just calls "BaseFinal" and then cuts power and makes a continuous descending turn to touchdown.

The 180 is a common thing. Lots of pros and cons.

 

[David Megginson]

Or an airport running traffic in both right and left traffic.

Sure, we can sit inventing edge cases all day — I've flown to one airport where you don't even see the runway on base leg, but follow a river valley through the town, then the runway appears suddenly on your left after you pass a hill and you have to turn final right away. You need to understand whatever special procedures apply for a specific airport.

But the point is that there's no excuse for the idiotic and dangerous general advice that old instructors drilled into students' heads that missing the turn to final by a few hundred feet is a terrible, shameful thing that should result in an immediate go-around. Emergency responders have scraped way too many bits of human remains out of mangled wreckage under the approach path to runways because of pilots who actually believed that nonsense.

 

[PaulS]

Sure, we can sit inventing edge cases all day — I've flown to one airport where you don't even see the runway on base leg, but follow a river valley through the town, then the runway appears suddenly on your left after you pass a hill and you have to turn final right away. You need to understand whatever special procedures apply for a specific airport.

But the point is that there's no excuse for the idiotic and dangerous general advice that old instructors drilled into students' heads that missing the turn to final by a few hundred feet is a terrible, shameful thing that should result in an immediate go-around. Emergency responders have scraped way too many bits of human remains out of mangled wreckage under the approach path to runways because of pilots who actually believed that nonsense.

I don't think controlled fields with traffic on both sides is an edge case, it's way more prevalent than parallel runways. But I do agree that going a little beyond centerline base to final is nothing to get puckered up about, and even if you do get puckered up, pulling and rudder into the turn while slow is the wrong answer every time.

I've had old instructors and have never had that drilled into my head. I was told not to be blowing through the centerline on a check ride because check ride examiner may question your ability to fly the airplane safely. I think a lot of the anxiety about overcorrecting is pilots misinterpreting or misremembering what they were taught.

 

[Albany Tom]

The 180 is a common thing. Lots of pros and cons.

I sometimes do 180's. But if I'm at some airports, I'll go wings level for a moment, so I can look for unannounced traffic on instrument approaches.

 

[Joe Pilot]

180's invented by Corsair pilots landing on Carriers. Couldn't see the deck unless they were always in a turn.

 

[Domenick]

Best explanation of skids, slips, and stalls I've seen. Start at about 3:15. Salient points last about 3 minutes, but the rest is interesting.

 

[luvflyin]

Best explanation of skids, slips, and stalls I've seen. Start at about 3:15. Salient points last about 3 minutes, but the rest is interesting.

I disagree with his saying it’s ‘dirty air’ that causes it. Even if the air was undisturbed, the inside wing in a skid is going to reach critical angle of attack before the outside wing.

 

[Ed Haywood]

The Waco at our field (which does sightseeing flights) just calls "BaseFinal" and then cuts power and makes a continuous descending turn to touchdown.

I do this all the time in my Decathlon. Visibility is excellent because of tandem seating and high wing. Leveling wings on base would obstruct my view of final. Cockpit visibility of biplanes is tricky, so every make and model has it's own preferred technique. Probably every pilot.

 

[Albany Tom]

I do this all the time in my Decathlon. Visibility is excellent because of tandem seating and high wing. Leveling wings on base would obstruct my view of final. Cockpit visibility of biplanes is tricky, so every make and model has it's own preferred technique. Probably every pilot.

Yep, different techniques for different planes. I do the wings level when in different flavors of pa-28, specifically at airports where it's common to see people on 5+ mile finals. For simulated power outs I don't of course, nor do I if I'm in a cub. Even in the pa-28, it's just for a second. Maybe that's just for my own peace of mind, with the stubby little wing blocking my view I imagine things coming at me that likely aren't.

 

[Silvaire]

What's often missing in many of these discussions is the visual effects of ground proximity. It's what causes people to get uncoordinated in the first place and it's why it's so difficult to practice or try and duplicate at altitude. Without the visuals of the ground track messing with you it takes real, deliberate effort to get that out of whack in a turn but put yourself at 200 or 300 ft in a stiff wind trying to trace a defined track across the ground while turning and it gets way easier to get the ball slammed all the way over to one side. The best training for it are those old ground reference maneuvers at 800 feet doing turns on a point, S's across a road and the more wind the better. But after primary training is over how many people regularly do that?