Overnight Fee Attached To Prop

eman1200 said:
Just out of curiosity, do you own?
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Yes I do, And I fully expect when it is parked at an FBO, yes they might have to move it. If they rubberbanded an envelope to my prop, I would not be upset.
 
TommyG said:
Yes I do, And I fully expect when it is parked at an FBO, yes they might have to move it. If they rubberbanded an envelope to my prop, I would not be upset.
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Exactly. Some planes do need special treatment, and if you need it, you ask for it. For my PA-28, I always ask them not to fill above the bottom of the filler ring below the fuel cap opening so that I don't lose a pint of fuel out the fuel vents (which they ignore 75% of the time, but them's the breaks).
 
TommyG said:
Yes I do, And I fully expect when it is parked at an FBO, yes they might have to move it. If they rubberbanded an envelope to my prop, I would not be upset.
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I wouldn’t be upset with that either but I’m always a nervous wreck no matter where I go if I have to leave my plane outside with strange people. I was the same way with my Harley. If I couldn’t see it in plain/plane site or if it wasn’t locked up in my garage or hangar, I’m worried. When your plane is THE BIGGEST BANG FOR THE BUCK, you’ve earned the right to be nervous.
 
eman1200 said:
I wouldn’t be upset with that either but I’m always a nervous wreck no matter where I go if I have to leave my plane outside with strange people. I was the same way with my Harley. If I couldn’t see it in plain/plane site or if it wasn’t locked up in my garage or hangar, I’m worried. When your plane is THE BIGGEST BANG FOR THE BUCK, you’ve earned the right to be nervous.
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When I get a new car, I'm always stressed about protecting it until the first couple of scratches and stone chips show up; then I calm down, because it's already imperfect anyway. The universe doesn't like perfection, and works hard to get rid of it.

I've never owned a brand-new plane, but when I get my 1979 PA-28 repainted in a couple of years, I'll probably be that paranoid again for a short while (my own advice notwithstanding).
 
eman1200 said:
I wouldn’t be upset with that either but I’m always a nervous wreck no matter where I go if I have to leave my plane outside with strange people. I was the same way with my Harley. If I couldn’t see it in plain/plane site or if it wasn’t locked up in my garage or hangar, I’m worried. When your plane is THE BIGGEST BANG FOR THE BUCK, you’ve earned the right to be nervous.
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I would be more concerned about wx, especially this time of year a good storm blows through, could be more of a problem. I was at one FBO, strong storms were coming through. RV 8 on the ramp had a garbage tie down, the line guys went out re secured the tie downs for the owner. I would doubt the RV owner had the attitude of how dare they touch his plane.
 
eman1200 said:
Just out of curiosity, do you own?
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I do, and I am firmly on the side of the “unless they cause damage, it is a total non-issue”.

FBOs are a business and if I choose to use their business, they both have the responsibility to care for my plane as well as the right to move it if they need to for conducting business.
 
TommyG said:
I would be more concerned about wx, especially this time of year a good storm blows through, could be more of a problem. I was at one FBO, strong storms were coming through. RV 8 on the ramp had a garbage tie down, the line guys went out re secured the tie downs for the owner. I would doubt the RV owner had the attitude of how dare they touch his plane.
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Good point. A sort-of tornado swept through my home airport in 2009. My plane was untouched, but many others weren't so lucky.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=094d4983-6e8d-4c93-8623-4af2fc5191cc

RockcliffeStormDamage-0409g.jpg
 
EdFred said:
Airnav pulls the 5010 data. You know, the stuff in the Chart Supplement, official airport information published by the feds. Says nothing about a fee.

...

That was pulled from the 5010 data? I didn't see it.

So I relooked at the 5010 data for HII

Non-Commerical Landing Fee: N

There are a bunch of airports where it says Y, and some where it's unanswered. But HII specifically says no non-commercial landing fee. I'd refuse to pay it.
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That's because there isn't a landing fee.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I do wonder what the effect of several ounces of weight attached to one blade would do. Would there be a noticeable vibration? What are the tolerances for prop balancing? Obviously distance from the hub is important.
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You’re assuming it stays on, I’d be surprised if if lasted past startup, at least the envelope. I can see the rubber band staying on.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
You’re assuming it stays on, I’d be surprised if if lasted past startup, at least the envelope. I can see the rubber band staying on.
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Yeah and an envelope would have to have a lot of stuff inside to weigh over an ounce. That is the limit for a standard stamp and you can send several sheets of paper without extra postage.
 
Prop tip speed is approx 500 mph at 2500 RPM. Someone with better engineering skills than me could probably calculate the drag and centrifugal force applied to the band at that speed. Would have to be one hell of a rubber band to stay affixed. Some kind of titanium rubber band, maybe? Probably TSO. Though I hear the homebuilt bands are better and cost half as much.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Prop tip speed is approx 500 mph at 2500 RPM. Someone with better engineering skills than me could probably calculate the drag and centrifugal force applied to the band at that speed. Would have to be one hell of a rubber band to stay affixed. Some kind of titanium rubber band, maybe? Probably TSO. Though I hear the homebuilt bands are better and cost half as much.
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I don't think it was ever about safety. Some people don't like anyone touching their stuff — fair enough — and the exaggerated "what if?!?" was just to add a bit of dramatic flair.
 
I’m sure the envelope would’ve flown off also. The rubber band? Maybe.

I keep my two blade prop straight up and down to discourage birds. I noticed a huge, chunky (for a bird) turd down my prop nonetheless. I meant to wipe off but forgot. Flew to lunch and back and the “substance” looked unmoved. Not the most scientific comparison to a rubber band but I was surprised.
 
A few points that have already been mentioned for those who don't seem to want to read through the whole thread.

1: It wasn't a landing fee.
2: It wasn't the FBO.
3: There are envelopes available maybe 30 feet away on a light pole with a big yellow sign. I was going to pay the fee regardless.
4: I have first hand experience with plastic and paper remaining on a helicopter rotor blade, even without a rubber band. There is a possibility it will stay attached, despite your best "guess".
 
Direct C51 said:
A few points that have already been mentioned for those who don't seem to want to read through the whole thread.

1: It wasn't a landing fee.
2: It wasn't the FBO.
3: There are envelopes available maybe 30 feet away on a light pole with a big yellow sign. I was going to pay the fee regardless.
4: I have first hand experience with plastic and paper remaining on a helicopter rotor blade, even without a rubber band. There is a possibility it will stay attached, despite your best "guess".
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Now it makes sense. Your previous failure to preflight a helicopter makes you worry that you'll miss something important when preflighting an airplane. Like PTSD, in a way. Nothing wrong with that!

Easy, easy. . . .just poking a little fun. Feel free to call me filthy names.You don't know the half of it!
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Now it makes sense. Your previous failure to preflight a helicopter makes you worry that you'll miss something important when preflighting an airplane. Like PTSD, in a way. Nothing wrong with that!

Easy, easy. . . .just poking a little fun. Feel free to call me filthy names.You don't know the half of it!
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That stuff wasn't there on preflight. Ever land in someones back yard? In a parking lot? On a major interstate? These things make tons of wind and will pick up anything nearby.
 
Direct C51 said:
4: I have first hand experience with plastic and paper remaining on a helicopter rotor blade, even without a rubber band. There is a possibility it will stay attached, despite your best "guess".
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Bell 206 rotor RPM- 394

Typical IO-360 propeller RPM- 2,700

:D
 
3393RP said:
Bell 206 rotor RPM- 394

Typical IO-360 propeller RPM- 2,700

:D
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Bell 206 Rotor diameter = 33.4 feet.
Cessna 172 Prop diameter = 6.1 feet.

There's a pesky radius in that equation as well as angular velocity. That being said the angular velocity plays a much larger role.

Angular Acceleration = radius * (angular velocity)^2
 
Direct C51 said:
That stuff wasn't there on preflight. Ever land in someones back yard? In a parking lot? On a major interstate? These things make tons of wind and will pick up anything nearby.
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Nah. I always preflight so I don’t have to make off-field landings.

I keed, I keed!
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Bell 206 Rotor diameter = 33.4 feet.
Cessna 172 Prop diameter = 6.1 feet.

There's a pesky radius in that equation as well as angular velocity. That being said the angular velocity plays a much larger role.

Angular Acceleration = radius * (angular velocity)^2
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Tip speeds of rotors are going to be about 15% slower than propellers, and the drag formula squares velocity, so there will be a lot more drag. This would result in more friction opposing the centrifugal force, but I don't know the calculation for that. Centrifugal force will certainly be less with the rotor due to the much lower RPMs, about 1/10 if I figure correctly. So my conclusion... who knows? I'm just trying to show a little anecdotal evidence that paper and plastic like to stay attached to spinny things.

I do know that flying through rain will damage my composite prop, and that's a drop of water weighing a couple hundredths of a gram. I don't really care what it is, I don't want it hitting my prop.
 
Direct C51 said:
Tip speeds of rotors are going to be about 15% slower than propellers, and the drag formula squares velocity, so there will be a lot more drag. This would result in more friction opposing the centrifugal force, but I don't know the calculation for that. Centrifugal force will certainly be less with the rotor due to the much lower RPMs, about 1/10 if I figure correctly. So my conclusion... who knows? I'm just trying to show a little anecdotal evidence that paper and plastic like to stay attached to spinny things.

I do know that flying through rain will damage my composite prop, and that's a drop of water weighing a couple hundredths of a gram. I don't really care what it is, I don't want it hitting my prop.
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It wouldn’t be “hitting” your prop if it was rubber banded on. If it were, the paint on your prop would have destroyed it long ago.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
Well, TBH, the rubberband and paper is going to fly off at the first turn of the prop. I can't see it causing any issue at all and even the worst pre-flight should catch something as obvious as ...
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Couple weeks ago I witnessed a local college training aircraft trying to depart from parking with the nose wheel chocked and the right wing still had the tie down attached.

Stuff should not be attached to an aircraft except as suggested by the OP. You might catch it. I probably would. But there are pilots who preflight by sniffing (or shooting) 100LL.
 
David Megginson said:
Those are the ones who take off with a cinder block swinging from their tail tiedown, and complain that the aircraft requires too much forward trim (and a lot of throttle to taxi).
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Just imagine all the extra drag from that rubber band on the prop! Or maybe it actually makes the prop more efficient like the vortelator strips…..
 
EdFred said:
Good for Foreflight. I don't use Foreflight, along with thousands of other people. Also, that's a comment, not official notification.[/QUOTE

So don't pay the bill if you disagree...The info on internet says no ramp fees...this is some sort of fee from the city....pay it or don't :).
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EdFred said:
Send them the payment, then send them a bill for touching your plane without permission.
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I think that might make for some interesting discussions. At several FBOs I've been to, its not uncommon to come back and find your airplane has been re-spotted to allow parking of other aircraft. Its possible you might find your aircraft buried in a stack of aircraft with no way to get out under your own power. You just wait for them to shuffle the stack and spot your aircraft out on the ramp where they then ask you to expedite your departure. Not a good idea to set the parking brake and lock the doors at these locations.
 
wilkersk said:
I think that might make for some interesting discussions. At several FBOs I've been to, its not uncommon to come back and find your airplane has been re-spotted to allow parking of other aircraft. Its possible you might find your aircraft buried in a stack of aircraft with no way to get out under your own power. You just wait for them to shuffle the stack and spot your aircraft out on the ramp where they then ask you to expedite your departure. Not a good idea to set the parking brake and lock the doors at these locations.
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I'm good with that, with the caveat that I have encountered several line personnel staring at my tailwheel and scratching their heads.
 
Spacedoc said:
That's because there isn't a landing fee.
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But an overnight fee requested ON ARRIVAL. Before I've even spent the night. Odd. Especially since I don't always know how many nights I am staying. And get ****y when I can't read tea leaves.
 
In a somewhat related note, this year at Oshkosh you'll no longer request fuel by using a fuel ticket rubber banded to the prop. You need to fill out the card and take it to the fuel booth. This is not so much becuase they're worried about propellers, but rather that the system of trucks just aimlessly driving around looking at the trucks had fallen apart. Now they'll dispatch the trucks based on the tickets turned in.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I'm good with that, with the caveat that I have encountered several line personnel staring at my tailwheel and scratching their heads.
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At many places the tailwheel is a good defense against having the plane moved. I used to hangar at a full-service FBO, and they'd always remind me that I could call ahead and they'd have my plane fueld and on the ramp. Followed by, "Of course, since you have a taildragger, we have to have two guys on the line to move it . . . ." Which always made me :rolleyes:
 
Lindberg said:
At many places the tailwheel is a good defense against having the plane moved. I used to hangar at a full-service FBO, and they'd always remind me that I could call ahead and they'd have my plane fueld and on the ramp. Followed by, "Of course, since you have a taildragger, we have to have two guys on the line to move it . . . ." Which always made me :rolleyes:
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Yeah, for the first six months I kept mine in a large group hangar. Got tired of playing Tetris to get it in or out, and finding new spots of hangar rash. Couldn't get out of there fast enough. That was just the universe telling me I needed to find a grass strip.
 
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