Overhead break, teardrop or fly the missed?

Unit74

Unit74

Final Approach
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Unit74
Senario....

You are inbound to airport and directly aligned with the runway in use at an uncontrolled airport. You do not have the distance to make the runway due to being too high after a ATC decent restriction while on Flight Following. You decide to:

Fly 500 ft above TPA and midfield, break left 180 to enter the left downwind

Fly departure heading and pick up the crosswind turn and fly the pattern

Left 45, then tear drop into the left downwind

Make up your own pattern entry cuz you fly a Cirrus

Chop the power, slip it like a brick with wings, freak out the 4 pax in the back thinking they are about to die and ensure they never want to fly again

So whatta ya do?
 
Used to happen to me, heading almost 90° to the runway, 4 nm out and 4000' agl when they let me descend. I would turn away, pull throttle and do 360s to lose altitude (and gain speed), then slow down while heading back to the pattern.
 
Unit74 said:
...Chop the power, slip it like a brick with wings, freak out the 4 pax in the back thinking they are about to die and ensure they never want to fly again
...
Click to expand...

That.

I use slips a good amount, I just tell my pax “this might feel a little odd”, people who have flown with me before know me and don’t mind at all
 
Unit74 said:
Senario....

You are inbound to airport and directly aligned with the runway in use at an uncontrolled airport. You do not have the distance to make the runway due to being too high after a ATC decent restriction while on Flight Following.
Click to expand...

What is an ATC decent restriction on Flight Following? [Note: I don't think descent restriction is a real thing either]

I'd have called field in sight, and heard 'services terminated, squawk VFR' long before I was too high on a straight in.
 
Ravioli said:
What is an ATC decent restriction on Flight Following?

I'd have called field in sight, and heard 'services terminated, squawk VFR' long before I was too high on a straight in.
Click to expand...

Airport located in or under a B or a C and the restriction is needed for sep. I get it all the time. Sometimes even while MEDEVAC status.
 
I'm based at T67, which is under the DFW Bravo.

Not a thing I've ever experienced.
 
I'd just fly the upwind, offset from the runway to the right a bit, and turn crosswind. Lets you take a good look around, and there's no rush to put flaps in.

If flying solo, I like the "chop-and-drop, crazy slip" approach!
 
Velocity173 said:
Airport located in or under a B or a C and the restriction is needed for sep. I get it all the time. Sometimes even while MEDEVAC status.
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You even slam dunk bro?! ;)

B4-B43-CDA-E9-AB-42-E0-B613-D85-A25-C735-FE.jpg
 
James331 said:
You even slam dunk bro?! ;)

B4-B43-CDA-E9-AB-42-E0-B613-D85-A25-C735-FE.jpg
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Light traffic that’s fine. Heavy traffic, that may or may not happen. MEDEVAC isn’t a an automatic get out of my way card.
 
Half Cuban 8, descend in the 45 down line, second half Cuban 8 to final on glideslope. Adjust length of final to maintain aerobatic AGL minimums. Passengers don’t like slips.
 
Unit74 said:
Senario....

You are inbound to airport and directly aligned with the runway in use at an uncontrolled airport. You do not have the distance to make the runway due to being too high after a ATC decent restriction while on Flight Following. You decide to:

Fly 500 ft above TPA and midfield, break left 180 to enter the left downwind

Fly departure heading and pick up the crosswind turn and fly the pattern

Left 45, then tear drop into the left downwind

Make up your own pattern entry cuz you fly a Cirrus

Chop the power, slip it like a brick with wings, freak out the 4 pax in the back thinking they are about to die and ensure they never want to fly again

So whatta ya do?
Click to expand...

Call a Power Off Emergency Descent on 1/4 mi final - left turns of course.
 
Slam dunk? Idle-boards on the mighty Talon we put the nose to 1,300ft/NM gradient while barely staying within the Letter of Exception with the FAA (allows a carve out for our cat E ops to exceed 250 below 10K, to 300KCAS).
Last time I looked at the VVI while doing that it said
ludicrous.gif
:D
 
Ravioli said:
What is an ATC decent restriction on Flight Following? [Note: I don't think descent restriction is a real thing either]

I'd have called field in sight, and heard 'services terminated, squawk VFR' long before I was too high on a straight in.
Click to expand...

My home drome was on the other side of Delta airspace; several miles out they said "maintain 4500" so I did. When I crossed their runway (4 nm from home), they told me I could descend, but still being in / above the Delta I kept the squawk.

I told them I was diverting over the city to descend, banked right, pulled throttle a little and at 500-600 fpm let the speed build. After 540° of turn, I headed back to my field on the edge of the Delta and let the speed bleed from 170 mph down to flap speed below 125 mph, and downwind at 90-100 mph.

This happened several times. I can only guess an airliner was inbound or about to take off. Usually I would just descend through their airspace and exit over the ridge along the river just under 2000 msl and enter downwind at 1600.
 
Flip on the smoke, left chandelle to the downwind, roll inverted to check the windsock, then another left chandelle to final where I slip it down. But first pass out the puke bags.

Ok seriously, I would stay 500’ over TPA, turn left 90 for 1/2 mi while descending, right 180 then join the downwind on a 45. I think this seems to honor the 45 entry expectation, but what I don’t like is that it puts you in a position to lose sight of the field and pattern for several minutes.
 
My rule of thumb is to NEVER, EVER enter the traffic pattern from the inside. I've notice a whole bunch of pilots doing it lately. I have been involved in two VERY close near-midair collisions because somebody thought it was OK to fly across the center of the airfield at pattern altitude and then turn left or right to "enter" the pattern from the inside! The way I learned and have always taught is to overfly the field in order to observe the segmented circle and the windsock at least 500 feet above the pattern altitude. Once you have determined the most favorable landing direction and runway, turn outbound and away from the airfield on a reciprocal heading of the inbound 45 degree intercept of the downwind. Once clear of the pattern by about twice the distance of the downwind, descent to pattern altitude and fly a 180 degree clearing turn to enter the 45 degree inbound track and enter the downwind normally.
Of course, make radio calls to announce you location and intentions throughout.
I consider the "modified 270 overhead" reckless and unsafe. I once mentioned that to a Canadian pilot, and he said it was standard procedure in Canada. I looked it up and he was correct, there is an acceptable alternate pattern entry from perpendicular over the runway.
I still think it is crazy and will never do it, unless in an emergency. It seems to be a result of laziness...
 
IK04 said:
My rule of thumb is to NEVER, EVER enter the traffic pattern from the inside. I've notice a whole bunch of pilots doing it lately. I have been involved in two VERY close near-midair collisions because somebody thought it was OK to fly across the center of the airfield at pattern altitude and then turn left or right to "enter" the pattern from the inside! snip
Click to expand...
FAA says that entry is fine. I like it the best because I can see everything in the pattern and if i'm gonna interfere with someone I can just angle slightly left or right to get in behind them on the DW.
 
The cross midfield left turn to the down wind is pretty common around here. I have also been seeing a lot the "big box" flight school traffic using the teardrop, but I believe there was specific FAA guidance not to use it recently. Not gonna name any names or anything, but we get a lot of ATP and Riddle traffic here tear dropping.
 
IK04 said:
My rule of thumb is to NEVER, EVER enter the traffic pattern from the inside. I've notice a whole bunch of pilots doing it lately. I have been involved in two VERY close near-midair collisions because somebody thought it was OK to fly across the center of the airfield at pattern altitude and then turn left or right to "enter" the pattern from the inside!
Click to expand...
You mean you've been seeing exactly the FAA published alternate entry from earlier this year:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-66B.pdf

I'm not a big fan of it, but I would not be surprised to see people following the newest guidance.
 
Chop the power, toss out flaps/gear, open the doors/vents/windows and fly the blue donut on the AoA.
 
Ravioli said:
I'm based at T67, which is under the DFW Bravo.
Not a thing I've ever experienced.
Click to expand...

Pretty common in the El Paso area landing Dona Ana to get a maintain 8500 until clear of the Class C. San Antonio gave me a similar restriction going into Stinson a couple of years back.
 
Okay, i'll be the ******* on this. VFR Flight Following is advisory only, no separation services provided.

What does an altitude restriction (decent or descent) mean?

If you're cleared into the Bravo or Charlie it's a slightly different story.

Do you think there is no possible way to get into the airport without talking? That is odd. I can stay above the Deltas below the Bravo pretty easily,
 
Ravioli said:
Okay, i'll be the ******* on this. VFR Flight Following is advisory only, no separation services provided.
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Once ATC gives you an instruction you gotta follow it regardless IFR or VFR. If you declare "negative services" after getting an instruction there's some debate whether you are still obligated but majority consensus seems to be affirmative.
 
IK04 said:
My rule of thumb is to NEVER, EVER enter the traffic pattern from the inside.
Click to expand...
'splain how you would enter a downwind at ONZ without busting Canadian airspace. :)

Two word that you need to always remember to never use are "always" and "never".
 
asicer said:
Once ATC gives you an instruction you gotta follow it regardless IFR or VFR. If you declare "negative services" after getting an instruction there's some debate whether you are still obligated but majority consensus seems to be affirmative.
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Around here, we will request the Bravo clearance (since it's easier for the pilot) and if granted comply. When not granted we fly the available space and get there just the same.

I don't understand this staying high to the slam dunk concept. Perhaps @Unit74 can expound on the issue and identify the non-towered airport involved.
 
Around here the normal entry from the "wrong" side is a mid-field crossing at TPA, left onto the downwind. Common, happens every day.

If I were in the situation described... the first and third options seem less risky. The second (upwind to crosswind, left turn) seems awfully risky if someone NORDO or just not on the CTAF is climbing out. And if it's a Cirrus, just pop the chute mid-field and ride it down, right? That's what 6PC says to do.
 
My rule of thumb is to NEVER, EVER enter the traffic pattern from the inside.
Click to expand...
If you're talking about crossing over midfield it's the way just about every other country does the preferred (and usually required) entry into the pattern. In addition, entering from that side is compliant with 91.126 where as the AIM 45-to-downwind is not.

The thing that gets me is people DESCENDING into the pattern. Almost got hit by a clown doing that who passed over and descended right in front of me (close enough that I could see the fabric stitching).
 
flyingron said:
The thing that gets me is people DESCENDING into the pattern. Almost got hit by a clown doing that who passed over and descended right in front of me (close enough that I could see the fabric stitching).
Click to expand...

That has been the case every time I have seen it. I once saw the tire of a Bonanza in the gap between my aileron and flap while turning to downwind. He descended right over me from the midfield. His last radio call was two miles North of the field.

I think it is an unsafe procedure and has come from impatient and lazy pilots. That AC is written like it is targeted at 3rd graders and contains that quote about left turns in the pattern on a circle to land: " This has been upheld by prior FAA legal interpretations of § 91.126(b)". Bunch o' weenies!
 
Ravioli said:
Around here, we will request the Bravo clearance (since it's easier for the pilot) and if granted comply. When not granted we fly the available space and get there just the same.

I don't understand this staying high to the slam dunk concept. Perhaps @Unit74 can expound on the issue and identify the non-towered airport involved.
Click to expand...

If you ask for Bravo and ATC comes back with "Unable. Remain outside bravo airspace, maintain <4000AGL converted to MSL> and current heading until 3 miles from <destination airport>" then you have been slam dunked :)
 
If RWY 4 and 35 are right traffic and 17 and 22 are left traffic, doesn't that put their downwind on The East side of the field?
I see no further remarks regarding traffic patterns in the AF/D:


ONZ.gif
 
IK04 said:
If RWY 4 and 35 are right traffic and 17 and 22 are left traffic, doesn't that put their downwind on The East side of the field?
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Yes, East. Which is on the edge of Canada. Which is a no fly zone for sport pilot, basic med, and anyone not on a flight plan with a discrete squawk code.
 
IK04 said:
I consider the "modified 270 overhead" reckless and unsafe. I once mentioned that to a Canadian pilot, and he said it was standard procedure in Canada. I looked it up and he was correct, there is an acceptable alternate pattern entry from perpendicular over the runway.
I still think it is crazy and will never do it, unless in an emergency. It seems to be a result of laziness...
Click to expand...
People like to invoke Canada all the time as justification, even here in this thread already. But, as I've pointed out often to POA readers, Canada requires two-way radio communications at those airports where a 45° entry to downwind is approved at the same time as the 270° approach to the runway from the opposite side. No radio? A 45°entry to downwind is not allowed, you have to go clear to the other side and make a perpendicular approach to the downwind from the airport side--or enter on an extended downwind from a point well upwind of the runway. If we had the same procedures here, there would be much more griping about the mandatory use of radios, I'm sure.
 
I would fly towards the downwind side of the airport at 1000 ft above the traffic pattern. Head away from the airport environment and loose my altitude before returning and making a normal pattern entry, all this provided there are people in the pattern. If there is nobody in the pattern in all honesty I would swing out to the right enough to cross the runway at 90° then enter the downwind.
 
I see no further remarks regarding traffic patterns in the AF/D:
Click to expand...
Now the Chart Supplement. Renamed because people couldn't remember which letters the slash comes between (It was the Airport/Facilities Directory).
 
I would probably just do some S-Turns or even a 360 like a procedure turn then intercept the course/glideslope and keep going straight in
 
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