Over 60 of us intercepted annually

I downloaded that on Foreflight last year just in case. Thanks.
 
The War On Drugs rears its ugly head yet again. Sad that it's destroying the fabric of our culture.
 
As a federal LEO and a pilot, I would be such a D-ck to the responding officers if that happened to me.
 
JB1842 said:
As a federal LEO and a pilot, I would be such a D-ck to the responding officers if that happened to me.
Click to expand...
Yet you would probably get professional courtesy. Are you accepting of people being a dick to you when you are stopping them?
 
JB1842 said:
As a federal LEO and a pilot, I would be such a D-ck to the responding officers if that happened to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm an ex-police officer, I too would make their lives difficult. These stops rely on intimidation to get pilots to "agree" to searches.
 
I was tracked on a recent flight from the NW US to the south central. When I landed, the airport ops got a call from what he said was DHS. They asked a lot of detailed questions. I locked up and left ASAP.

I told the airport ops guy I didn't appreciate him giving them any info on me without a warrant, but he's in kind of a pickle. If he doesn't cooperate, then life for him can get hard. Intimidation is pretty clear, if subtle; 'play ball, or we will be back, a lot'.

Face it, just like the 'show your papers' to any LEO, we are screwed. We have no power with AOPA/EAA to stand up with a spine and pursue legal action, they just want to lube the anus while the feds slip the rod in as far as they can. One person, unless they're wealthy can't fight it.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Yet you would probably get professional courtesy. Are you accepting of people being a dick to you when you are stopping them?
Click to expand...

Yep. Goes with the job. But I do my best to make sure that I'm 100% in the right when I do my job, and do my best to de-escalate a situation when tempers overcome reason.
 
So... do you consent to the search, knowing that they'll probably let you go after finding nothing, or refuse the search and wonder what you'll face now that their suspicions are further aroused? What will they do if you do not consent (besides intimidate)?
 
JB1842 said:
Yep. Goes with the job. But I do my best to make sure that I'm 100% in the right when I do my job, and do my best to de-escalate a situation when tempers overcome reason.
Click to expand...
Cool.
 
F01LA said:
So... do you consent to the search, knowing that they'll probably let you go after finding nothing, or refuse the search and wonder what you'll face now that their suspicions are further aroused? What will they do if you do not consent (besides intimidate)?
Click to expand...

NEVER CONSENT TO A SEARCH.

Make them get a warrant or show probable cause. Many people have been f*cked by consenting to searches because they "have nothing to hide." An agent's "aroused suspicions" don't mean anything if he can't articulate a reason. Exercising your rights never amounts to increased probable cause.
 
JB1842 said:
As a federal LEO and a pilot, I would be such a D-ck to the responding officers if that happened to me.
Click to expand...

As a lawyer - I'd be worse . .

They ask me all sorts of questions asserting my fifth amendment privilege and refusing search for any purposes, including the dog. My little card also asks them to disclose their reasonable suspicion for a stop. If they lack a warrant I'm am going on my way and buttoning up my aircraft.

If they further reason to detain me, state the reasons since I do not consent to detention or search. If you have a warrant, display it. Detention to await another police organization without knowing the probable cause is illegal, and to step out my way or face civil rights charges.

After being stopped twice at illegally placed drunk driving checkpoints that cannot be avoided legally in my city, even if they are stopping every third car, and I'm the third car - they now know me and wave me along - see - non-compliance and standing on rights works.
 
bullwinkle said:
NEVER CONSENT TO A SEARCH.

Make them get a warrant or show probable cause. Many people have been f*cked by consenting to searches because they "have nothing to hide."
Click to expand...

That. And remember, police cannot detain for an unreasonable length of time just to get a warrant. If they stop you and ask to search, it can be considered a voluntary stop, and you can tell them no and walk away and ther is nothing police can do about it.
 
bullwinkle said:
NEVER CONSENT TO A SEARCH.

Make them get a warrant or show probable cause. Many people have been f*cked by consenting to searches because they "have nothing to hide." An agent's "aroused suspicions" don't mean anything if he can't articulate a reason. Exercising your rights never amounts to increased probable cause.
Click to expand...

I understand, and I'm with you, but you have to follow the logic of the average person/pilot. Agree to a search, and there's a 99% chance I'll get to go in a few minutes. OR.. refuse my consent and ??? Who knows what will happen.

So what does happen if you do not consent? They smile, say goodbye, and drive away?

The very fact that we ask these questions shows how wrong things are. But the questions are still here.
 
comanchepilot said:
As a lawyer - I'd be worse . .

They ask me all sorts of questions asserting my fifth amendment privilege and refusing search for any purposes, including the dog. My little card also asks them to disclose their reasonable suspicion for a stop. If they lack a warrant I'm am going on my way and buttoning up my aircraft.

If they further reason to detain me, state the reasons since I do not consent to detention or search. If you have a warrant, display it. Detention to await another police organization without knowing the probable cause is illegal, and to step out my way or face civil rights charges.

After being stopped twice at illegally placed drunk driving checkpoints that cannot be avoided legally in my city, even if they are stopping every third car, and I'm the third car - they now know me and wave me along - see - non-compliance and standing on rights works.
Click to expand...

I do appreciate your input, and model my own interaction the same way(without the card, but thinking of getting that).

Can you expand on what to do in the case of a Terry search? I had one a few years ago in downtown Dallas. I was driving away from the place I was working in a large IT center about 1am. I figured the cops would be out in droves, and I drive a rather sporty car. Once I got on Elm St I was pulled over. After giving the cop my lic, reg, and proof of ins he had me step out of the car. I rolled up the window, got out, locked the car, and put the keys in my pocket. He asked a bunch of questions; 'where are you from, going, what are doing here, etc' to which I didn't answer. He said he was going to conduct a search of my vehicle, and I said that I didn't consent. He then waited a few seconds and said he was going to conduct a search of my person for weapons.

So, he pats me down, empties my pockets, and says that I should show some respect(while he pats ME down, sheesh). I knew it was legal. After that, he tells me to wait here, so I lean on my car, and he goes back to the patrol car. Another cruiser shows up, and they sit there for 5 minutes. I go back to the first cop car and tell him I'm leaving now, unless I'm being cited, and he tells me if I leave I'm under arrest. So, we sit for another 10 minutes, and finally he says 'free to go' and also that I shouldn't be such an azz. I just know he was baiting me to go off, so I smiled, and waved.

What about Terry searches? How long can they keep you? Can they actually look through your wallet and papers? I complained to the DPD, but it went no where.
 
docmirror said:
I do appreciate your input, and model my own interaction the same way(without the card, but thinking of getting that).

Can you expand on what to do in the case of a Terry search? I had one a few years ago in downtown Dallas. I was driving away from the place I was working in a large IT center about 1am. I figured the cops would be out in droves, and I drive a rather sporty car. Once I got on Elm St I was pulled over. After giving the cop my lic, reg, and proof of ins he had me step out of the car. I rolled up the window, got out, locked the car, and put the keys in my pocket. He asked a bunch of questions; 'where are you from, going, what are doing here, etc' to which I didn't answer. He said he was going to conduct a search of my vehicle, and I said that I didn't consent. He then waited a few seconds and said he was going to conduct a search of my person for weapons.

So, he pats me down, empties my pockets, and says that I should show some respect(while he pats ME down, sheesh). I knew it was legal. After that, he tells me to wait here, so I lean on my car, and he goes back to the patrol car. Another cruiser shows up, and they sit there for 5 minutes. I go back to the first cop car and tell him I'm leaving now, unless I'm being cited, and he tells me if I leave I'm under arrest. So, we sit for another 10 minutes, and finally he says 'free to go' and also that I shouldn't be such an azz. I just know he was baiting me to go off, so I smiled, and waved.

What about Terry searches? How long can they keep you? Can they actually look through your wallet and papers? I complained to the DPD, but it went no where.
Click to expand...

Well handled :yes:. Never consent, never let them bait you :no:
 
comanchepilot said:
As a lawyer - I'd be worse . .

They ask me all sorts of questions asserting my fifth amendment privilege and refusing search for any purposes, including the dog. My little card also asks them to disclose their reasonable suspicion for a stop. If they lack a warrant I'm am going on my way and buttoning up my aircraft.

If they further reason to detain me, state the reasons since I do not consent to detention or search. If you have a warrant, display it. Detention to await another police organization without knowing the probable cause is illegal, and to step out my way or face civil rights charges.

After being stopped twice at illegally placed drunk driving checkpoints that cannot be avoided legally in my city, even if they are stopping every third car, and I'm the third car - they now know me and wave me along - see - non-compliance and standing on rights works.
Click to expand...

JB1842 said:
That. And remember, police cannot detain for an unreasonable length of time just to get a warrant. If they stop you and ask to search, it can be considered a voluntary stop, and you can tell them no and walk away and ther is nothing police can do about it.
Click to expand...

So being neither a lawyer nor LEO, I don't know what the right thing to do is in these situations. It sounds like saying "Sure, c'mon in, lemmie show you around!" is a recipe for disaster, but other than that, I'm not really sure. I haven't encountered one and hope never to, but in the case that it does happen, I'd like to be prepared. What specifically would you guys (and anyone else in the know) say/do? What rights do they have and what rights do we have?
 
Well, for a start, go back to post #2 and read the attached AOPA guide.
 
F01LA said:
I understand, and I'm with you, but you have to follow the logic of the average person/pilot. Agree to a search, and there's a 99% chance I'll get to go in a few minutes. OR.. refuse my consent and ??? Who knows what will happen.

So what does happen if you do not consent? They smile, say goodbye, and drive away?

The very fact that we ask these questions shows how wrong things are. But the questions are still here.
Click to expand...

What happens next is up to the LEOs involved. If you refuse consent, there is a good chance they will use some different tactics:

1) Intimidation - "Look pal, if you make me go get a warrant, I can guarantee that I will find *something* wrong, and I will show no mercy. If you just let me search it will go better for you."

2) Buddy up - "Hey, I understand. We're not looking for a little pot or a weapon, we're looking for kingpins. You don't really have anything to worry about unless you have a baggage bay full of cocaine."

3) Inconvenience - "Okay then. we're going to have to get the drug dog out to sniff around, that will take a couple of hours. Then we have to talk to the supervisor and fill out some forms, which will take another couple of hours. We can be out here all day, or we can take a quick look and have you on your way in 20 minutes."

4) Obtain consent without asking for it directly - "Alright then, I'm not going to do a search. I'll just open up this compartment here, okay?"

Don't fall for any of it. These are tactics LEOs use to get you to consent to a limited or full search, and a lot of it is bluff and bluster to get what they want. Stand your ground; if they want to keep you there all day or do an illegal search, it's on them. Be polite, you can sue them later if they violate your rights.

If it were me, I'd just say "I do not consent to any searches, I'm invoking my right to remain silent, and unless you tell me I am being detained, I'm leaving." I would then fly to another airport. If they stop me, then I know I'm under a technical arrest and would sit down, shut up (remember I said I would remain silent? NOW I DO THAT!), and wait for them to do whatever it is they are going to do. I'd be on the phone to a lawyer as soon as they left.
 
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60 pilots a year. And how many of those 60 pilots got a wife, an ex-wife, business partner or employee mad enough to call in a fictitious "tip" to a LEO.

I'll bet most of them.
 
Old Geek said:
60 pilots a year. And how many of those 60 pilots got a wife, an ex-wife, business partner or employee mad enough to call in a fictitious "tip" to a LEO.

I'll bet most of them.
Click to expand...

I think most of them come from flight tracking in areas such as the border or out of Colorado, from what I read. No tips or other probable cause at all...pure fishing expeditions.
 
A Terry stop cannot involve emptying pockets - a Terry is a pat down - not an invasive search - no backpack searches - they can check your PERSON for weapons,. End of story. If they feel something that 'could' be a weapon in your pockets THEN they can take it out . . . . but change, keys, pocket litter - nope.

If you have a purse, backpack, etc, you put it down - and step away from it. It becomes not searchable any longer. A terry means they want to talk to you - and they pat you down for weapons for officer safety.

I have had an officer try to search my backpack after I set it down and stepped away and I objected firmed and clearly. I asked them - is this a Terry stop - they looked confused then said yes. I said - the backpack is not longer reachable by me- it is now outside the scope of the Terry - pat me down and lets move on.

One patted me down while the other one looked longingly at the backpack. Found no suspicious bulges that would be weapons [knife, gun, club etc - stuffin the pockets is not subject to a terry search if does not feel like a weapon] and then wanted to chat about 'someone matching my description' being aggressive at a club.' I told them I have no intention of speaking to them and asked if they were done. They tried all the usual crap to speak to me - and I refused to answer any questions and finally said: " If you intend to continue to question me - read me my rights and take into custody because at this point I want an attorney"

This was LAPD during the mid 1980's - they did not like anyone who knew their rights - I was on the verge of being assaulted. I could tell. But - they also saw that they had nothing - and needed to move on - there was another mid 20's white guy coming along with a backpack who might be more amenable to being hassled. . . .

I am not a criminal lawyer and am trying to discover whether you even have to stop for one police department who is asked to detain you until DEA/DHS shows up. They have to have a name or a reasonable description of the aircraft or person - and even then the police force detaining you has no reasonable suspicion other than another law enforcement organization telling them THEY have reasonable suspicion. . .. how far does that go?

just remember - they have the guns. And if they DIRECT you to do something - do it. An order is an order. At that point - the civil rights violation is on them. NEVER resist people with guns unless you have a really really good understanding of what they are doing -
 
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Myself, I think all the hassles on flying imposed by our assorted governments is more related to ridding the skies of GA than anything else.

Drones are one of the key features to future methods of population control and surveillance. Small GA aircraft are the cog in the wheel of giving free hand to drones of all sizes our airspace.

Anything that can make becoming a pilot or flying a small airplane a major pain in the ass to accomplish, our government is going to engage in it.

The so called 39 drug arrests from all of the money spent on this particular "program" might only have been for most, nothing but a roach in an ash tray or trash bag.

Even if all two hundred plus stops made had produced results of any significance, the government knows, and the public knows, that all narcotics would continue to be readily available in every city and town in the country.

The war on drugs is one of our government's biggest and most embarrassing failures, that is common knowledge. It has, and continues to be, a tremendous waste of taxpayer dollars and government resources.

So what really justifies the cost of all of their tracking equipment and manpower, the probably millions of dollars being funneled into the operation?

It could be simply a bureaucratic power trip, or a bureaucracy with too much money and time on its hands, but somehow, I have trouble believing that they are that stupid.

-John
 
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I disagree. The war on drugs, terror, and domestic violence have been raging successes in conquering a once free people. If I was more motivated I'd write a book with all the Cold War propaganda against the Russians(maybe they were guilty of those things, not saying they are innocent or superior) it would be in an interesting read compared to how far freedom has fallen.
 
ClimbnSink said:
I disagree. The war on drugs, terror, and domestic violence have been raging successes in conquering a once free people. If I was more motivated I'd write a book with all the Cold War propaganda against the Russians(maybe they were guilty of those things, not saying they are innocent or superior) it would be in an interesting read compared to how far freedom has fallen.
Click to expand...

I think an even more interesting read would be if we could dig up all of the horror stories and propaganda that was fed to us in the 1950s about Russia and Communism, then compared it to our own government and country of today.

-John
 
bullwinkle said:
What happens next is up to the LEOs involved. If you refuse consent, there is a good chance they will use some different tactics:

1) Intimidation - "Look pal, if you make me go get a warrant, I can guarantee that I will find *something* wrong, and I will show no mercy. If you just let me search it will go better for you."

2) Buddy up - "Hey, I understand. We're not looking for a little pot or a weapon, we're looking for kingpins. You don't really have anything to worry about unless you have a baggage bay full of cocaine."

3) Inconvenience - "Okay then. we're going to have to get the drug dog out to sniff around, that will take a couple of hours. Then we have to talk to the supervisor and fill out some forms, which will take another couple of hours. We can be out here all day, or we can take a quick look and have you on your way in 20 minutes."

4) Obtain consent without asking for it directly - "Alright then, I'm not going to do a search. I'll just open up this compartment here, okay?"

Don't fall for any of it. These are tactics LEOs use to get you to consent to a limited or full search, and a lot of it is bluff and bluster to get what they want. Stand your ground; if they want to keep you there all day or do an illegal search, it's on them. Be polite, you can sue them later if they violate your rights.

If it were me, I'd just say "I do not consent to any searches, I'm invoking my right to remain silent, and unless you tell me I am being detained, I'm leaving." I would then fly to another airport. If they stop me, then I know I'm under a technical arrest and would sit down, shut up (remember I said I would remain silent? NOW I DO THAT!), and wait for them to do whatever it is they are going to do. I'd be on the phone to a lawyer as soon as they left.
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Serious question: do they teach you these techniques to circumvent the 4th Amendment at the Police Academy, or do they learn this on the job from their fellow experienced LEOs?
 
nddons said:
Serious question: do they teach you these techniques to circumvent the 4th Amendment at the Police Academy, or do they learn this on the job from their fellow experienced LEOs?
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Little of both. And remember, it's not illegal for a cop to lie to you.
 
So I just took a plane trip around the Southwest. I departed Denver, went to Las Vegas, Death Valley, San Diego, Yuma Az, Phoenix and then back home. My plane had just returned from the Bahamas (club plane).

I fully expected to trigger whatever little alarm the CBP/DEA are using right now.

So, I prepared my self with the AOPA card, printouts of the relevent FARs, printouts from the CBP field manual that prescribes how the CBP is supposed to conduct stops, and even joined the AOPA legal services just in case. I was all prepped to politely stand up for my right to travel unmolested in my super awesome GA aircraft.

After all that, I didn't see a single federal LEO the whole time. :rofl:
 
John Baker said:
So what really justifies the cost of all of their tracking equipment and manpower, the probably millions of dollars being funneled into the operation?

It could be simply a bureaucratic power trip, or a bureaucracy with too much money and time on its hands, but somehow, I have trouble believing that they are that stupid.

-John
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You're reading too much into it. In the end, these mammoths of bureaucracy are nothing more than a jobs program. You need GS employees to sustain these local crappy border economies with their above median wages. The fact they accomplish this by trespassing against their own neighbors is frankly, immaterial.

Jobs jobs jobs. Ask a federal DHS/CBP type, they'll tell you [privately] all day: "I can't make GS-11/12/13 money as a private worker anywhere with my lackluster education/practical skillset; I'm just trying to feed my family". Pure economic motivation. They know what they do for a living is kabuki. But they get paid to fly a plane and carry a gun. Beats working at olive garden as far as they're concerned and the retirement is way better. There's your smoking gun.
 
hindsight2020 said:
You're reading too much into it. In the end, these mammoths of bureaucracy are nothing more than a jobs program. You need GS employees to sustain these local crappy border economies with their above median wages. The fact they accomplish this by trespassing against their own neighbors is frankly, immaterial.

Jobs jobs jobs. Ask a federal DHS/CBP type, they'll tell you [privately] all day: "I can't make GS-11/12/13 money as a private worker anywhere with my lackluster education/practical skillset; I'm just trying to feed my family". Pure economic motivation. They know what they do for a living is kabuki. But they get paid to fly a plane and carry a gun. Beats working at olive garden as far as they're concerned and the retirement is way better. There's your smoking gun.
Click to expand...

Agree. Why does most of this crap exist? So congressmen can bring the pork home to their constituency.
 
JB1842 said:
Little of both. And remember, it's not illegal for a cop to lie to you.
Click to expand...

Exactly. In training they teach you what you are allowed to do legally, and once you are released into the wild you learn how that translates into arrests in the real world by seeing how others do it.

My favorite myth: "If you ask a cop if he is a cop, he HAS to tell you."

LEOs can lie their asses off; unless you get an agreement in writing, they can tell you one thing and do the complete opposite. Guess how often they put anything in writing? :idea:
 
All of this makes me nervous as hell. I know I don't have what they are looking for because I have never messed with the drugs and never will. I am into guns but don't mess with the automatics and never take them on the aircraft with me.

My biggest fear, and maybe this is from too much television, is that during said search it would be so easy to plant something and there you go, instant trouble.

Is that over the top paranoid or is it a real concern?
 
tmyers said:
Is that over the top paranoid or is it a real concern?
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IMO, a bit over the top. I don't think cops plant many things, and particularly, if they do, it is to create an excuse to take a deeper look into someone they genuinely believe is guilty of something.

In the case of GA "stops", you have people on a power trip or a fishing expedition. I think they would love to find something but I doubt they want to fabricate something.

My position, and the apparent position of many of the people on this board, is that we have rights that severely limit "fishing trips", and we would choose to exercise those rights.
 
tmyers said:
All of this makes me nervous as hell. I know I don't have what they are looking for because I have never messed with the drugs and never will. I am into guns but don't mess with the automatics and never take them on the aircraft with me.

My biggest fear, and maybe this is from too much television, is that during said search it would be so easy to plant something and there you go, instant trouble.

Is that over the top paranoid or is it a real concern?
Click to expand...

Your police would never do such a thing.

-John
 
Unlikely but if your judicial system abuse number comes up you are boned.
tmyers said:
All of this makes me nervous as hell. I know I don't have what they are looking for because I have never messed with the drugs and never will. I am into guns but don't mess with the automatics and never take them on the aircraft with me.

My biggest fear, and maybe this is from too much television, is that during said search it would be so easy to plant something and there you go, instant trouble.

Is that over the top paranoid or is it a real concern?
Click to expand...
 
bullwinkle said:
Exactly. In training they teach you what you are allowed to do legally, and once you are released into the wild you learn how that translates into arrests in the real world by seeing how others do it.

My favorite myth: "If you ask a cop if he is a cop, he HAS to tell you."

LEOs can lie their asses off; unless you get an agreement in writing, they can tell you one thing and do the complete opposite. Guess how often they put anything in writing? :idea:
Click to expand...

And yet state and federal law say that we can't lie to LEO or Feds...

something is really wrong here
 
Clark1961 said:
And yet state and federal law say that we can't lie to LEO or Feds...

something is really wrong here
Click to expand...

The best approach to take is if their lips are moving, they are lying, always assume the worst with LEOs. They are armed, you're not.

Any contact you have with an LEO, your life or freedom are in jeopardy. Be extremely polite, make no quick movements, never run from them, follow instructions carefully. Your overall attitude is also important.

The best approach is much the same as if you suddenly encountered a rattlesnake, be very careful, and look for a non obtrusive way out of the situation.

-John
 
I was intercepted once, a long time ago (1990?). Nothing much happened. They asked if they could look in the airplane, I said "yes". They climbed up on the wing, looked in the window and said, "oh, never mind".
 
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