Our new baby (with wings)

[flyingcheesehead]

Happy news!

After six years of working on getting a new airplane into my flying club, Friday was payoff day - I got to go pick up our "new baby!"

N569DS is a 2006 Diamond DA40 with G1000 glass panel, GDL 69A XM radio/weather datalink, KAP140 autopilot w/altitude preselect, long-range tanks, premium interior, 4-way baggage compartment, XLS canopy, and performance landing gear.

To say I'm happy would be an understatement. In the first weekend, I put 12.2 hours on her. Here's the pictures:

On the ramp, just after we arrived to pick her up:

On the ramp, waiting for a pilot:

Pilot found!

A wealth of information. Note on the MFD that we're flying the Chicago lakeshore, and there are at least 3 other airplanes nearby. They were very busy on 118.4 and refused flight following this time, so having the traffic display was very nice:

And man, what a view - No door pillars or anything in the way!

I found the pot of gold already!

 

[Richard]

Fat chicks and mopeds.

 

[AdamZ]

Niiiiice Bring it to the FlyBQ

 

[AdamB]

Nice looking bird Kent!

You let Pete fly it yet???

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Niiiiice Bring it to the FlyBQ

That's what I'm thinking, Adam! I won't take her to 6Y9 (the wheel pants are somewhat on the fragile side) and may or may not take her to Gaston's (park at BPK, and have Pete fly the 182 down to shuttle back and forth ) depending on $$ as well (It's a lot cheaper if Pete and I are in the same plane). But, I'll bring her to all the fly-ins with paved fields, FlyBQ included.

In fact, though I need to do some further testing to be sure, I believe she's got enough of a glide ratio to make it over Lake Michigan from MTW-LDM for sure, and maybe even FAH-HIC (coming into MI over Little Sable Point) which would be a shorter trip than through KELSI, and maybe even shorter than down the Chicago lakeshore. So, something like KMSN FAH HIC YQO BROTO KLOM. As you can tell, I already can't wait for FlyBQ 2011.

 

[Areeda]

Fat chicks and mopeds.

I don't get it I will not type the bad joke that comes to mind (who said I have no self control)

Cool Kent!

We have one similar on the field for rent. It's on my list to get checked out. I've heard nothing but good things about them.

If you're nice I'll post a picture of the flight instructor.

Joe

 

[Arbiter419]

Well, she's no Cessna, but she sure is pretty

 

[EppyGA]

I just finished G1000 ground training as the first step in getting checked our in local school's DA40 . Looking forward to it. It has the GFC700 auto pilot.

 

[jhausch]

So, how does one join this club and what's the rate for that beauty?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've been having some fun testing out the new plane to see what she'll do.

At 6500 feet and "Full rental power" (WOT, 2400 RPM, 100F ROP) I got 147 KTAS at 10.5gph. Going for efficiency (WOT, 2200 RPM, 50F LOP) I got 135 KTAS on 7.5gph! But, she doesn't like the LOP so much - The #2 cylinder peaks and drops off much faster than the others, leading to a slight "tick" when LOP. So, a happy medium of WOT/2300 and 50F ROP resulted in 140 KTAS at 9gph. Can't complain about that.

Also, as I mentioned, the glide ratio is pretty good. Vg is 73 knots, and the descent rate is roughly 650 fpm (it was hard to tell in the rough air when I was trying to test it). That would be a glide ratio of 11.37 to 1 - Not too shabby!

I'm quickly learning and relearning the G1000 - Being very familiar with the 430, and having about 12-15 hours of prior G1000 time, I felt pretty comfortable right away. There's some quirks that I need to figure out, but many of them I've already gotten figured out. We got the software upgraded to the latest version (321.22) yesterday, so at least I know nothing will move on me in the near future.

Looking forward to getting to know her even better.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Nice looking bird Kent!

You let Pete fly it yet???

Well, kind of. I'm the only person in the club qualified to fly it, but I gave rides to a few club members, including Pete, on Sunday. I got checked out in the right seat first so that I could put them in the left seat, and I did the takeoffs and landings. (Actually, I let Pete take off, I've flown with him enough to know what to expect.)

So yes, kind of. But Pete is celebrating anyway because now he'll actually be able to fly the 182 now and then.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So, how does one join this club and what's the rate for that beauty?

I'm glad you asked!

There's a simple one-page application (available at the link in my signature) to join. It's $1500 to join, and that buys you an equity share that you are free to sell for whatever price you set when you leave the club.

$180/month dues covers hangar, insurance, and includes your first $50 of flying each month as well.

The DA40 is going for $135 per tach hour, wet. So far I've put 9 hours on the tach and that's come out to 12.2 on the Hobbs. That comes out to $99.59/hr on the Hobbs! (It was coming out to about $112/hr on the Hobbs for cross country flights, the ratio is better when you're shooting approaches or in the pattern.) This is a STEAL considering that DA40's normally rent in various places around the country for $160 per Hobbs hour (I've paid $175 in California).

 

[gprellwitz]

That's what I'm thinking, Adam! I won't take her to 6Y9 (the wheel pants are somewhat on the fragile side) and may or may not take her to Gaston's (park at BPK, and have Pete fly the 182 down to shuttle back and forth ) depending on $$ as well (It's a lot cheaper if Pete and I are in the same plane). But, I'll bring her to all the fly-ins with paved fields, FlyBQ included.

In fact, though I need to do some further testing to be sure, I believe she's got enough of a glide ratio to make it over Lake Michigan from MTW-LDM for sure, and maybe even FAH-HIC (coming into MI over Little Sable Point) which would be a shorter trip than through KELSI, and maybe even shorter than down the Chicago lakeshore. So, something like KMSN FAH HIC YQO BROTO KLOM. As you can tell, I already can't wait for FlyBQ 2011.

Well, maybe not! Looks like I might be going stag to Wings this year (Leslie has a conflicting 99's section meeting), so might want to share the plane with you!

Next question, how do you compare it to the 182? We both have beaucoup 182 time and some DA-40 time. Seems to me that the DA-40 has better efficiency and visibility, i more fun to fly, is much hotter in full sunlight, and is not as good in rain, short strips, or grass.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well, maybe not! Looks like I might be going stag to Wings this year (Leslie has a conflicting 99's section meeting), so might want to share the plane with you!

Well, I can be easily bribed.

Next question, how do you compare it to the 182? We both have beaucoup 182 time and some DA-40 time. Seems to me that the DA-40 has better efficiency and visibility, i more fun to fly, is much hotter in full sunlight, and is not as good in rain, short strips, or grass.

I'd buy most of that right off the bat. It'd be OK in grass with the pants off, but a DA40 with the pants off is UGLY! Well, okay, maybe not ugly, but it looks completely wrong.

I haven't gotten a good feel for it on short strips yet either, but unless you're talking REALLY short it shouldn't be a problem. I think my biggest problem so far is finding the right airspeed over the fence. You definitely need better airspeed control as this is a slicker bird, the 182 will slow down really well so it lets you be sloppier. It slows down better than I expected, probably due to the inboard 2 feet or so of each flap effectively being a split flap. The flaps also have a wide span and extend to 42 degrees in the LDG position. I did do a couple of practice fast-approach slowdowns, and in 600 feet on the glideslope it'll drop 60 knots (130 down to 70) whereas the 182 will drop from 140 to 70 in only a little over 300 feet, or about twice the deceleration of the DA40.

Definitely agree on the fun factor, efficiency, visibility. Yes it can get hotter, but it has better ventilation too. Finally - Why do you say the 182 is better in rain? I haven't flown the DA40 into heavy rain yet.

One other thing I noticed is that the DA40 seems to be a little more susceptible to turbulence. The wing loading of the DA40 and C182 is almost identical, at 17 and change pounds per square foot. However, the DA40's high aspect ratio wing is longer and I think that allows it to catch more bumps, and the ones it catches at the wingtips have a higher moment around the CG of the plane. At least that's my theory. It certainly has a different feel than the 182.

It likes to go high, too - I was getting my best true airspeeds up at 6500 feet, and I took it to 11,500 and it not only was climbing at over 600 fpm when I got there, it still trued out at a fairly high speed (I can't remember it exactly, but it was over 130).

I also noticed that the engine cooling is excellent. Despite there not being any cowl flaps and a fairly tight cowl, CHT's are running around 370-380 in the climb and 340-360 in cruise.

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Very Nice Kent,... I loved flying the DA-20 at Wings Field and gave some rides in it two years ago at the FlyBQ. The DA-40 looks like a great machine too.

 

[tonycondon]

are you going to put a towhook on it?

 

[t0r0nad0]

Very cool Kent! What's the break-even point between taking the DA40 vs. the 182? I.e., the 182 costs less to rent, but is slower and burns more fuel - at what distance does it become more economical to take the DA40?

 

[CJones]

In the air-to-air pic, it looks like you fill up the cockpit pretty well - how much room is left with you and Pete both in there?

There are several DA's for rent around here, and if I ever lose access to the RV, I'll need something to feed the habit - would I fit in one?

 

[mhockey21]

How hard is it to get acquainted with the new style stick rather than the traditional yoke?

 

[TMetzinger]

How hard is it to get acquainted with the new style stick rather than the traditional yoke?

Takes less than 5 minutes - really.

 

[Areeda]

How hard is it to get acquainted with the new style stick rather than the traditional yoke?

I wonder how well the stick works for IFR flight, touchy? Hard to find a good place for approach plates?

 

[EdFred]

I wonder how well the stick works for IFR flight, touchy? Hard to find a good place for approach plates?

I'm guessing there's a coupled autopilot where you only have to use the stick for T/O and landing.

 

[gismo]

I wonder how well the stick works for IFR flight, touchy? Hard to find a good place for approach plates?

I've found that kneeboards work exceedingly well in airplanes with a center stick.

 

[CJones]

I wonder how well the stick works for IFR flight, touchy? Hard to find a good place for approach plates?

I've found that kneeboards work exceedingly well in airplanes with a center stick.

^^^ What he said.

I did my IR training and have logged 90% of of my IFR time in the RV. Compact kneeboard is a necessity. There isn't any extra room for a ton of gadgets and doo-dads - just a notepad & pen, approach plates, and a big paper clip to keep pages where you want them.

Good autopilot is handy, too.

 

[nddons]

Awesome, Kent!

Steins Aircraft at KUES has two; the oldest one I could not even sit in because of the proximity of the low panel to my kneecaps. The newer one (but still pre-G1000) worked, but knee room was tight, the rudder pedals seemed too narrow (and my foot caught something next to the right rudder pedal on a T&G, which made me unable to put in right rudder, which in turn made for an exciting takeoff for the CFI and me), and headroom was tight but acceptable. The view was unmatched, however. It would be perfect with a higher panel, 4" more leg room, and wider rudder pedals.

I earned my private in a Symphony which had a stick, so going back to a stick in the Diamond was a non-event. I still prefer it to a yoke.

Are you going to leave the wheel pants on in the winter?

 

[gprellwitz]

Well, I can be easily bribed.



I'd buy most of that right off the bat. It'd be OK in grass with the pants off, but a DA40 with the pants off is UGLY! Well, okay, maybe not ugly, but it looks completely wrong.

I haven't gotten a good feel for it on short strips yet either, but unless you're talking REALLY short it shouldn't be a problem. I think my biggest problem so far is finding the right airspeed over the fence. You definitely need better airspeed control as this is a slicker bird, the 182 will slow down really well so it lets you be sloppier. It slows down better than I expected, probably due to the inboard 2 feet or so of each flap effectively being a split flap. The flaps also have a wide span and extend to 42 degrees in the LDG position. I did do a couple of practice fast-approach slowdowns, and in 600 feet on the glideslope it'll drop 60 knots (130 down to 70) whereas the 182 will drop from 140 to 70 in only a little over 300 feet, or about twice the deceleration of the DA40.

Definitely agree on the fun factor, efficiency, visibility. Yes it can get hotter, but it has better ventilation too. Finally - Why do you say the 182 is better in rain? I haven't flown the DA40 into heavy rain yet.

One other thing I noticed is that the DA40 seems to be a little more susceptible to turbulence. The wing loading of the DA40 and C182 is almost identical, at 17 and change pounds per square foot. However, the DA40's high aspect ratio wing is longer and I think that allows it to catch more bumps, and the ones it catches at the wingtips have a higher moment around the CG of the plane. At least that's my theory. It certainly has a different feel than the 182.

It likes to go high, too - I was getting my best true airspeeds up at 6500 feet, and I took it to 11,500 and it not only was climbing at over 600 fpm when I got there, it still trued out at a fairly high speed (I can't remember it exactly, but it was over 130).

I also noticed that the engine cooling is excellent. Despite there not being any cowl flaps and a fairly tight cowl, CHT's are running around 370-380 in the climb and 340-360 in cruise.

The rain comment was regarding getting in and out in the rain with the canopy.

The winter comment reminds me that the DA isn't as good because 1) the long low wings need to be watched more carefully near snowbanks and 2) steering using differential braking makes it more susceptible to ice on the runway/taxiway.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

are you going to put a towhook on it?

No, sorry.

Very cool Kent! What's the break-even point between taking the DA40 vs. the 182? I.e., the 182 costs less to rent, but is slower and burns more fuel - at what distance does it become more economical to take the DA40?

Well, the DA40 is slightly faster and slightly more expensive; there's really no difference in the cost I don't think, they're fairly proportional. So, it becomes a question of mission: If you need to haul a lot of people and stuff or land on unimproved strips, you take the 182. If you want to take someone for their first airplane ride, you might want to take the DA40 - Creature comforts like cupholders are as impressive to them as the spiffy panel, though flying in something that at least looks modern sure doesn't hurt.

In the air-to-air pic, it looks like you fill up the cockpit pretty well - how much room is left with you and Pete both in there?

The DA40 is actually a few inches *wider* than the 182 at the shoulders! So, that's not a problem. There's also a small console to rest your legs against when they're not on the pedals.

There are several DA's for rent around here, and if I ever lose access to the RV, I'll need something to feed the habit - would I fit in one?

Pre-2003, no way (legroom - Panel was lower). 2003-2006, doubtful (headroom - I just barely fit, thought I was going to have to buy a new in-ear headset when we got this one.) Later XL and XLS models might work, as the panel has been moved up and the canopy slightly enlarged - I fit OK in this one with my fat-headband Lightspeed headset, because it has the XLS canopy. If you had an in-ear headset or one with a thin headband, you might fit. Hit me up at one of the fly-ins.

How hard is it to get acquainted with the new style stick rather than the traditional yoke?

What? It has a stick? Oh yeah. That's about how easy it was for me. 30 seconds and I didn't even notice any more. Some people might have more trouble than that, but for the most part the only thing I noticed when giving the newbies rides was that a couple of them were flying with their right hand instead of left. Too much flight-simming, maybe.

I wonder how well the stick works for IFR flight, touchy? Hard to find a good place for approach plates?

It's sporty but as long as you don't grip the stick or rest your hand on it, not a problem. When you start it's easy to chase it all over the sky because it is fairly sensitive on the controls, but once you let go of your death grip on the stick it's quite stable as well. The other "problem" is that the resolution of the G1000 AI is so much better than people are used to, they chase it as well - But once you get used to it, it's quite easy to hold your altitude within 20 feet when you're flying by reference to instruments - You can see excursions MUCH sooner with the G1000 than with traditional instruments.

I haven't found the perfect place for the iPad yet - I basically stuck it along the outside wall when I wasn't looking at it.

I'm guessing there's a coupled autopilot where you only have to use the stick for T/O and landing.

Yup. I've flown 4 fully coupled ILS approaches down to mins with it (VFR), one to figure it out myself and three while demoing the capability to instrument-rated club pilots. It's quite possible to engage it at 400 AGL on takeoff and leave it on until 200 AGL on landing, but it's such a fun plane to hand-fly that I don't expect people to fly it that way.

I've found that kneeboards work exceedingly well in airplanes with a center stick.

Maybe, maybe not. I'll have to try my Mini-Z board, but those big ones with three surfaces wouldn't work well since the stick comes out of the seat, not the floor. Yeah, I have fat legs but only a Tristan-style body type is going to have extra room for such things.

Steins Aircraft at KUES has two; the oldest one I could not even sit in because of the proximity of the low panel to my kneecaps. The newer one (but still pre-G1000) worked, but knee room was tight, the rudder pedals seemed too narrow (and my foot caught something next to the right rudder pedal on a T&G, which made me unable to put in right rudder, which in turn made for an exciting takeoff for the CFI and me), and headroom was tight but acceptable. The view was unmatched, however. It would be perfect with a higher panel, 4" more leg room, and wider rudder pedals.

Yeah, the newer one is probably a 2003. They've made a couple of changes as noted above to increase the amount of room in the interior, and I know what you mean on the rudder pedals but I think they changed something there as well, I haven't had any problems on ours. In fact, the way they have the brakes as little flag-shaped pieces on top of the "tube" rudder pedals makes it easy to stay off the brakes on landing and gives it a nice feel for ground handling. I don't think it was always that way.

Are you going to leave the wheel pants on in the winter?

Dunno, but I hope so. Taking the pants off makes it go from sleek and sexy to ugly duckling.

The rain comment was regarding getting in and out in the rain with the canopy.

Ah. Nothing beats a 182 for getting in and out in the rain. But in the DA40 I can watch the weather on the G1000 and see when it's going to stop at least.

 

[jesse]

but for the most part the only thing I noticed when giving the newbies rides was that a couple of them were flying with their right hand instead of left. Too much flight-simming, maybe.

Perhaps it's because a whole lot of stick airplanes are flown with the right hand. I personally prefer it but it's not an option in the Diamond unless you sit in the right seat.

 

[SCCutler]

I like flying with a stick (all DA20 time); I found that the transition was utterly seamless, and it is more natural than flying with a yoke.

 

[gismo]

Maybe, maybe not. I'll have to try my Mini-Z board, but those big ones with three surfaces wouldn't work well since the stick comes out of the seat, not the floor. Yeah, I have fat legs but only a Tristan-style body type is going to have extra room for such things.

I said "kneeboard" not lapboard. A good kneeboard won't extend beyond your legs and shouldn't interfere with the stick. An unfolded lapboard would definitely be a problem unless it had a real big slot in it for the stick.

 

[ArrowFlyer]

A couple of items I will add to the discussion as I have several hours in a 2002 DA40. The stick vs. yoke was fairly easy for me and didn't take too long to feel comfortable. I do have time in a Citabria, although it's opposite as far as which had you are using for flight. I have a knee board that I use for my right leg and I place my iPad or LS800 on my left leg. While I am more comfortable having the LS800 on the yoke, it works OK with it on my lap.

Approach speeds shouldn't be any different in the 2002 model that I fly versus the newer model that you have. I usually fly downwind at 80 knots, base at 70 and final at 60 unless there is commercial traffic behind me at KCID. Once over the threshold I pull the throttle back and hold the plane off until I touch down. Usually that is around 50 knots give or take.

One of the funnest things that I did when I was getting checked out in the plane was the power on stalls. Full power, full flaps, pull back on the stick, 40-45 knots, just sitting there hanging on the prop. Although the stall horn was squawking, there was no sign of an impending stall. Quick recovery as well with slight forward pressure on the stick.

I am 6'-2" and I am comfortable in the plane, although this is one of the early models before they moved the panel. While I would like an adjustable pilot and passenger seat, I feel the integrity of the composite construction with the fixed seats is a added benefit.

I flew to Chicago 2 weeks ago and while enroute at 9000' we were getting 135 kts TAS burning 8.0 gph. This is the stock 2002 DA40-180 with stock exhaust and a 2 blade Hartzell prop.

John